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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
This is a good example of why I have the opinion thats its best to stick with one person's guidance when learning this skill.
I'll have to disagree.

Some want to teach the skill of filler and some want to teach the skill of metal shaping.

Which way the OP wants to do it is up to him.

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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 10:26 AM
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To replace or not to replace: roof skin on 77 Trans an

Quote:
Originally Posted by 123pugsy View Post
Please, I'll try it one more time...........THERE IS NO SUCH THING!!!
Someone mentioned you need the "shrinking dolly" with the hammer. Not really true. If you increase the area of the surface metal, you will create a bulge. The only thing that can happen from banging a hammer on dolly is metal stretching.

My "shrinking" hammer has now lost it's head and all the bumps on my "shrinking" dolly have been ground off leaving me something I can now use.


Pugsy, idk if auto correct somehow changed "disc" to "hammer" or if I just had a Freudian slip, but I mean "shrinking disc." "Has anyone else had experience with the shrinking disc?" Is what I meant to type. The 9" one is only $40 on eBay.

Again, thanks for all the good info and keeping it coming ming so fast. DBM, so you're basically saying don't use heat, knock em down and fill. I can do that. Seems like it's be the simplest solution. I don't think I should apply heat after the skin is welded on though as this will cause the primer on its inside to burn off and then I'd have a bare metal spot prone to rust.

And then to the point of filler; you're saying I can use filler on the roof in low spots even though the metal is really thin and flimsy so long as I use the glue dots and such to make sure it's firm and stiff. Am I picking up what you're putting down??

Finally, I just reinstalled the skin in the inner structure for the first time. There doesn't appear to be any warpage. Everything lines up great- every single drilled spot weld.


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Last edited by Schroeder; 04-15-2017 at 10:43 AM.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 10:53 AM
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Pugsy- I like how we can disagree without attacks. Not that we've had any trouble, you and I.

Having a wide selection of opinions to gather is the beauty of the web. It allows one to form their own opinion based on their individual interpretation of the sum of all guidance available, and to target a certain skill level that the person doing the work is comfortable with achieving. If each guidance-provider's techniques were digested from start to finish, back to back, I believe a better education can be had as opposed to the bits and pieces from multiple sources all at once approach thats happening. I am questioning the study technique, not the advice. I don't think Schroeder will take offense to that, he has been very frank with us regarding his skills. I can certainly understand not knowing what questions to ask, and being a good student is tough, but its part of fixing cars.
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 11:09 AM
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Schroeder you had asked about pucky for under the roof skin... based solely on my own experience, what I prefer is McKanika seam sealer.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post
DBM, I have been doing all this work on the skin while it's on my welding table so I can access both sides. Once I weld it in the inner roof structure will be under it, and I won't be able to get a dolly on the back side.

Yes, I know I need to put the glue in place to hold the skin tight, high, rigid, and separated from the roof. I have seen some discussions on this and what product should actually be used. I never saw a bullet proof product mentioned for this in the research I have done at this point, but I have seen some people used windshield sealant because it gets pretty hard, but at the same time it's slightly flexible- a desired quality in this area since the roof may be expanding and contracting some as it may sometimes soak up the heat of the sun. Without this quality I have seen discussions that you may end up seeing ghosted images of the glue dots after many hot sun baths.


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I called the stuff that sticks the skin to the inner structure glue but it not really glue just use the same thing the factory does and forget about it, I cant remember the name but any paint store will show what you need.
So let me see if I got this right, You want to do all the hammer and dolly work, the filler and primer while its off the car, then weld it back on? I never heard doing it like that before.
Just by coincidence I had stripped and epoxied two old Nissan hoods yesterday, Today I hammered and dollied and did filler, sanded straight. Talk about flimsy metal, I took a bunch or pics to help you out and explain the whole process.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 04:37 PM
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These hoods need a lot of help, I was going to set them aside but figured what the heck, I'll fix them on the side while doing an Impala 1/4 that's getting saved and maybe someone can learn something like making an epoxy sandwich.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 04:41 PM
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Thanks idrivejunk. I'll look that stuff up. And when u say u question my studying, do you mean I'm going to fast through your responses, or something else? And nah, I don't take offense. Lay it out to me straight. I'm fine with that.

DBM, how I thought I should do it is hammer and dolly so everything was at least below flush if not perfect. No humps. Then I would prime the inaccessible areas with SPI epoxy primer, glue, and weld it on to the inner structure- which will be welded to the car at the time the skin is installed.

That's really awesome you took all those pics! Thanks for going or of your way like that. I truly do appreciate it.


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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post
Thanks idrivejunk. I'll look that stuff up. And when u say u question my studying, do you mean I'm going to fast through your responses, or something else? And nah, I don't take offense. Lay it out to me straight. I'm fine with that.
That seam sealer is not what I like for sealing seams but I do prefer it for roof and door skin globs because it is soft long enough for the job to be done and the panel in it's mounted position before it really sets up. Just FYI. About studies, my point is for example if you went to three bodymen's stalls and learned about fixing dents and rust... you may come away with three different techniques with each being equally valid. Optimally, you could do that and each one would go through their entire process with you, on similar examples. Each set of instructions would be complete and you could cull them all in your mind.

Its the steps, the process of if this doesn't work step to this, the details... that get left out. Thats all I'm saying. I have never made any kind of straightening tutorial, and use a fancy crutch (dent puller) at work. 3D stuff is difficult to tell and easy to show, and rarely easy to get the hang of. So we would practice on junk, particularly with the relatively high stakes on your roof, y'know?
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Old 04-15-2017, 05:52 PM
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Yea. I hate to seam like I'm going in circles with you guys, but I just wanna get this right. The roof is so big and flat and these cars are so low, especially after you lower them like I'm doing, that any flaw will be obvious. I'm going for awesome quality here, and laugh as you may because I am not a pro, I am still trying very hard. And maybe it's naive, but like I said, I think I can actually get there, it just may take me 10X longer than it would for you guys. Maybe I'm naive.

So, DBM (or anyone else) is my thought process on how to repair these dents that I outlined 2 posts ago in response to DBM's question, correct?


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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post
Yea. I hate to seam like I'm going in circles with you guys, but I just wanna get this right. The roof is so big and flat and these cars are so low, especially after you lower them like I'm doing, that any flaw will be obvious. I'm going for awesome quality here, and laugh as you may because I am not a pro, I am still trying very hard. And maybe it's naive, but like I said, I think I can actually get there, it just may take me 10X longer than it would for you guys. Maybe I'm naive.

So, DBM (or anyone else) is my thought process on how to repair these dents that I outlined 2 posts ago in response to DBM's question, correct?


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No, it's not correct.
If material is stretched, you cannot hammer and dolly it to get it lower.
Somewhere will always stick up.

You said you want it awesome quality. Using body shop methods gets it to look good, but under that looks good will be a flim flam panel gooped in bondo.

The first pic below, there must have been high spots as you can see the shrinking disc marks on it. Second pic is after off dolly and slapper work.








Your choice on how you want to repair your roof. I know what I would do....
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2017, 07:20 PM
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A couple more.....





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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2017, 03:57 AM
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To replace or not to replace: roof skin on 77 Trans an

Awesome pics pugsy. Those pics are great encouragement and motivation. That's what I'm striving for. I ordered a shrinking disc yesterday before I came in from the shop. I can't wait to get it and try it. I know DBM's opinion of the repair and assembly steps, does anyone else think I should be repairing the bumps now while the skin is off? Not looking to discredit you DBM, I'm just looking for more opinions. Like IDJ said, 3 different body men might give you 3 different opinions.

Happy Easter to everyone by the way!


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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:27 AM
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If you want a smooth, low bondo panel, fix it first and then assemble.

But, there's always a but, be prepared to spend a whack of time doing it.
This is where a hobbyist can spend the time compared to someone that needs to put dinner on the table making repairs.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:35 AM
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Another tool you will need is a slapper.
You can make one from a old piece of leaf spring. I ground a radius on mine so I don't have sharp corners to put dings into the panel.
Do NOT use a hammer.

You place your dolly with the crown up under a low spot giving an upward force. You "slap" around it and the low spot will come up. This is called off dolly work and it doesn't stretch, it just moves the metal around.
Keep moving the dolly all around the low spot as you do it or else only one place will move up. Practice, hit lightly a bit at a time.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:43 AM
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I prefer working the dents with the panel off. Often, my hand serves as the dolly on the very last bit of straightening. And I like being able to tap from both sides.

I have done a LOT of straightening in my life and satisfied the customer every time without ever requiring a shrinking disc. A shrinking tip on a stud gun has been a friend many times though. Ideally, off-dolly hammering can chase the dent away leaving only the stretch that is from the damage to deal with and creating no new.

Same with torch. Never needed it for sheetmetal. Changes the properties of the metal and makes it behave more like tin than steel afterward, if you ask me. The carefully placed weld has helped me save panels where others failed with a torch. I think it was a big mistake to put fire on your roof and should have quit while you were ahead when it looked "OK". Striving for perfection at entry level is apt to be more discouraging than productive in my opinion. Even the most demanding customers I have encountered (even while doing show cars most often) are not interested in buying perfect straightening, they would rather you just get it close enough that thick bondo is not needed.

I probably can also come up with before and after straightening pics for inspo but don't think they would reveal much about how to do it. Want some? Merry Easter and enjoy yourself if you work in the shop today.
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