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  #196 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 12:21 PM
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I'll stop the zany idea posts soon as my brain quits handing in ideas... this last one almost sounds like an early Ford type trick. I was thinking how the skin will roll over and curve some there when you pinch it on, but what if you inserted like pull starter rope into the bead area after the first pass of edge folding, then crimp the skin on as usual, then yankthe rope out. Might give you the bulge it needs. Of course you'd need some tacks and touch up crimping after. I see you are currently here digesting responses so I'll sit on any other ideas that pop up for the next little while.

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  #197 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 12:32 PM
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Ahhh thanks for the good suggestions guys.

Hey IDJ I sure hope you don't get the same type of Howells problems I got. I will say out of all the parts I bought from them only 1 part was usable out of the box without having to modify them and that was the rear quarter ends by the trunk.

The decklid needed work. The rear panel below the trunk really was crap too The door skins are crap! I have the rear wheel wells and the lower part of both rear quarters to do. They are simple panels with a minimum of curves so I hope they go better!

I was going easy on Howells but the more I think about it the more I get real Pizzed off! I spent a bundle on sheet metal from them and this is what I get. CRAP CRAP CRAP. Not only is the skin wrong but the workmanship is CRAP.

"I will Never buy another damn thing from them and if I do buy metal from someone else I will make sure the parts did not come from Howells".

I sure wish the hell someone would buy them out and turn the company back to a quality supplier with real quality control!

Now back to the task. I am going out to the shop in a bit and grab some scrap and form a clone of what I have now and then see what it takes to correct the bends. I kind of wish I had an E wheel right now and knew how to use it correctly. I guess I will see what I can come up with on my bead roller. BTW IDJ I like the wooden dowel idea and also like the idea of making a wooden buck to reform the edge. Oh and I still have the skin that was removed so I think I will use it as a pattern! If this was a flat panel I would just make another but this panel has a curve front to back and top to bottom. I do not have an E wheel or the skills to run it..

So out to the shop to see what I can come up with. I will post up some progress later.
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  #198 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiftyv8 View Post
RVW, are you going to rework the panels you have???
No choice I will rework what I have.
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  #199 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 01:15 PM
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Be sure to sample several areas before settling on a contour to call the master. I bet it varies a lot, in which case you would want to establish an average. The more I think about it, the more the wooden groove makes sense in your situation.

About vendors... if the seller is not manufacturing the part, fuss about quality is not called for. An honest local area resto parts vendor we do business with is absolutely frank when asked about parts they sell. That is the best one can hope for, honesty. Because its not like someone somewhere is making perfect prewar car parts, it just ain't possible. A vendor who does offer your part in admittedly poor quality wants to satisfy you more than the one who says those suck so we quit carrying them. Experience in working on ancient car bodies mellows the alarm factor when misfits are spotted.

Sometimes manufacturers actually do deserve benefit of doubt. In crash shop days, I found that if an aftermarket fender is unwrapped and held to the car it will almost always look way way off. Experience proved that if a guy tries bolting it to the car before passing judgement, many of the send it back and order OEM scenarios may be unnecessary.

Go git um, Champ. You'll come up with something and it will be interesting, I have no doubt!
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  #200 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
Rip, this is a second hard to visualize image thats better than the first, maybe. Might be out in left field here, but perhaps its food for thought. Bead rollers, brown is wooden dowel rods, blue is washers. A stepping die could offer a different arrangement, and theres no rule saying you can't run a bead die on one side and step on the other when its the creativity hour. In my thoughts, dowels in the image are clamped to the skin and the modification is done to a small area at a time.

This good. You could take a flat bar and tack two pieces of round bar to it.
Use another piece of round bar underneath exactly as shown, and just tap down on the top bar/rod die.


Simple and can do it on the bend. No round die to make.
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  #201 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 03:15 PM
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Brilliant. I was thinking of running the rods through the roller like a octopus arm wrestling match but yep it would work on a bench with hammer or with good vise or a shop press. I don't know how theres any cats still running around in pelts when theres so many ways to skin one.
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  #202 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 03:36 PM
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RVW, I think Pugsy123 is on to something.
I think that you are looking for a piece of homemade die that can be put under a press to force the old shape in to a new impression.

I am not familiar with how ductile the Howell's sheet metal is but if you made a metal block not too long and could move it along it maybe rigid enough to force the new shape in to the old.
It wont be perfect and could be time consuming making but once made it could be quick to do.
Corners will be the worst part but the could possibly be hand hammered.

I visited a maker in the USA called Steve's Auto Restorations who made mostly 1934 Ford bodies totally using hardwood bucks and pressing. They said it was quicker and easier to make wooden forms and replace them than to fool around with metal ones.
If you know a die or tool maker, his input could be of some help.
Other option as mentioned is the bead roller which really is going to take two pairs of hands and lots of practice/experimenting.

This circumstance is exactly what happened to my best friend and he ended up walking away from his patch panels and purchased a pair of perfect original doors in NYC and paid a absolute fortune in shipping to get them shipped to Australia. About 20 years ago 2 doors cost him over US$3,000

I wont buy doors requiring too much repair on skins because of this issue.
My coupe has perfect original doors purchased in 2012 from a complete car that was being parted out.
They cost me US$1,000 each, but I don't have to touch them.
Sadly, this is why T doors in good condition are expensive to purchase.
If the patch panels were any good the bottom would fall out of the original door market.
I did get a pair of custom patch panels made for a pair of doors in Colorado in a hot rod shop which worked out pretty good, but it was not cheap.

Then you get down to that old scenario about a good job, a cheap job and a quick job, but you can have all 3 together...

At least in your case it is your time which is free, so you just need to move slow and steady and fix it with a solution that can be found in your w/shop.
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  #203 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 04:28 PM
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fiftyv8, that amazes me that good original doors are out there. I saw a Model A on another forum completely rust free and can't even imagine how that happens but it sure is refreshing to see. I would have to make sure everyone who sees the car knows it has gennie Henrys. And I have wondered what the $500+ full doors are like. Ever seen one?

Rip, I think you have a good idea foundation to launch a bead correction operation from soon. Tacked round and bar stock would make it fairly simple to uniform it all around the skin without smushing like pine dowel might. As for my upcoming Howell's adventure, you can follow a blow-by-blow on my thread. Because its my occupation, its easiest for me to dump all projects on one non-specific thread. We have an imaginary punch bowl over there!

Find it here when you have time, and try to slip out of the house with a dash of spirits for the punch. Theres no cover charge but we all get thirsty.

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/day...mp-516029.html
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  #204 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:09 PM
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A new plan

Well I went out to the shop a while ago and studied my parts and looked at my options to fix this ClusterMuk. After much careful examining my options I think I have a possible workable plan. It just depends if I can can do something on my bead roller.

Reference My Repair Plan photo!
The reason the skin looks so wide is that where the skin ends and the first bend starts, instead of a 90 deg bend they slopped the bent to the right. SEE FIG 1 This effectively moved the top of the bend 1/8 to the right. They did not put a crown in the top but left it flat and I figured by the time you beat it to death it would have a crown. That is the root cause of this thing not matching up!

As shown in FIG 2 this is what it should roughly look like although the dimensions were exaggerated so you could see the big picture.

What I need to do is move a bend about 1/8 of an inch further out and remove any signs of the wrong bend. See FIG 5.

If I can successfully move that bend out all I would have to do is make a wooden Buck to put the top curve into that. See FIG 4 I already have the perfect piece wood to do that. I laid the wood next to the door skin and drew the skin profile on the wood and cut it out. See FIG 3 & 4. I will put a Bevel on the edge to match what I need and then beat my aggression out on the skin! Well not really. I think I can make that work. My main worry is I do not want to mess with the panel curves as they were perfect.

I am going to throw a couple of pictures into the mix along with my repair drawing.

RepairPlan1 This is what I hope to do.
Oldskin1 Here is a piece of the old skin to compare to
Oldskin2 The OE skin showing my skin has a correct bottom.
Oldskin3 A good visual showing te slopped bend.
Oldskin4 A portion of the door area exposed.
Oldskin5 1/2 round in the OE Channel
Oldskin7 3/4 round in the OE channel
Oldskin8 A wooden buck for working the channel area. Will mount in a vise to hold it.

I hope I have explained what I would like to do so everyone can clearly critique the plan and tell me where I am going wrong if at all! Also I wanna know about any pitfalls that may await me.

Ok advisors digest the info and let me know if you think this will work..
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  #205 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:36 PM
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Sounds good RVW, especially if the bottom swage is OK that eliminates about 1/3rd of your problems.

Stay the course and you will beat it for sure.
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  #206 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2018, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip VW View Post

Oldskin7 3/4 round in the OE channel.....too big. It must always be a bit smaller to allow for spring back.


Oldskin8 A wooden buck for working the channel area. Will mount in a vise to hold it...........not req'd. Do not fear losing the shape. It will always follow the inner structure.
bead roller steps may be able to pull it into more of a 90, maybe not.



You just need to try different things and git er dun!
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  #207 (permalink)  
Old 08-19-2018, 11:29 AM
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I think yes on adding bulge to the bead, and no on trying to move the line. Whatever you do at the inside bend will show, even if you had the perfect roller. I beleve the manufacturer was aware of the difference you are showing, and that with their equipment and pricing limitations, it was not feasible to duplicate the original manufacturing technique. They knew that guys who insist on perfect metal shape in areas like that won't buy, they'll make.

The parts you have are the closest thing they could provide in the absence of original tooling. Picture the scenario. Part designer says boss, this is as close as I can make it with our stuff, and its not real close but I've left room that with filler, the correct contour can be achieved if desired. Part will still be under a hundred bucks...

Boss says can't you make that step any sharper? No, its so tall that we encountered shearing when we tried to make a more abrupt transition. More height requires more slope so the metal doesn't tear in half.

What would it take to get the correct transition? A second press hit.

Hmm, no we better stick to what you have there. Its true that filler will probably be needed around the edges after skin replacement. Does the contour improve any when pinching the edge during installation? Yeah, maybe a little.

OK, roll with this then. The bodyman will have to do the rest, heck no two Model Ts are exactly the same anyway. So this is fine. Man, corporate HQ sure will be happy we have a door skin available now. They already listed one in the catalog as coming soon so maybe this will get them off my butt.



That make any sense? Relying on filler is a valid part of repair bodywork. My main concern would be creating an acceptable joint where new and old panels meet, and tapering that out. In metal. Because with car together, that is closest to the standing man's eye. Be diligent there, fade out the rest. Perhaps an exercise in determining what you can make the bead look like with filler would help you determine just how closely you must pin this down. Remember to stand the door up on the shop floor to assess it from a chair, because at the show, the door won't be on a bench with that bead in his face.

Lowered expectations, strategically implemented, will win the day. Give it hell.
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  #208 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2018, 07:02 PM
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I am making some progress on this skin! I have both sides straight and the right width. It took a combination of ideas to get the bend straightened up.

First attempt was moving the bend with a comma dolly and although it was working I didn't like the unevenness that method caused.

I next tried a regular dolly to try and move the bend but it was no better.

Finally I found the ideal tool and that is a Rock/Concrete chisel with a 5 inch wide blade and the edge of the blade sharpened to a 45 deg angle on the edge. I set the panel on some soft wood and placed the chisel right in the middle of the bend slope. I whacked it so I left a small V indentation all down the side to the end.

I then took a 1/8" step die and loaded the bottom of the bead roller with it and got my narrow tipping die and proceeded to make a new bend and roll out the old. It was kind of slow going as I had the bead roller cranked down to dead slow and it was a little unwieldy but slow and steady won the game!

The next step is putting some crown on top so it matches the OE. First I tried using my woden buck and that proved to be to springy. Next Idea was to get a piece of round bar and use that as a dolly. Nope, it is too hard to try and hold with one hand and hammer with the other and balancing the skin on my lap was a bit much. The bar I was using was about 14 inches long and I curved it to match the buck. That may have worked if I had made the dolly shorter and put some kind of handle on it. But Alas, I found a way to put the crown in with out damaging or distorting the skin!

I dug around in my bead roller dies and found the widest channel die and measured and it will support the metal on each side of the trim ridge. I found a smaller male die that had the right profile to match the small crown I need.

I played with some scrap and I think I can make this work. It was early afternoon then and the smoke around here was making my throat sore and my eyes were burning so I will take this up tomorrow. This air up here from all the fires was extra thik and raspy today. My eyes have been burning since this morning..

A couple of pictures for fun and education. I misted the fixed area so you can see the sharper edge. Besides it was just setting there..
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  #209 (permalink)  
Old 08-26-2018, 10:29 PM
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Update 8-25-2018

So I was hoping to have both doors in primer and the skins ready to install and even installed however I been having a few medical issues that has slowed me down and cut into my times in the shop.

However, I have made progress and just yesterday found out what was causing the top forward edge of the door hitting the A pillar. I had initially thought it was from bent hinges but I was suspicious because the amount of bend didn't seem to be severe enough to cause the top of the door to hit. I also thought the A pillar was wacked but that was not enough to cause the door to hit.

I finally found the problem and I had been looking at it all the time and it did not ring the bell upstairs.

(Clue #1) When I was fitting the new window channel support I noticed the bracket for the stock window channel was rather beat up and bent and so was the original channel. I just blamed the 91 years of age and such for it and never gave it another thought.. My new window channel has its own brace I made. I wasn't really concerned about the old mount and channel as I was not going to use the old stuff as the new channels are metal and have a top and bottom mounting and the original channel I just left it there.there is nothing more than a minor brace.

Well I am doing some sanding on the front edges of the door where it faces the A Pillar. There was rust, dirt, and lots of oem ford primer. Well after getting the majority off the paint and rust removed I realized there was a bunch of dips creases and dents. I had put my big ol straightedge on the edge on this door from the top to bottom a while back and it appeared straight in a quick glance anyway! (CLUE2) This starts my mind going and I remember that the clinch nuts in the door that the door retention bracket bolts to is part of the lower door hinge mount. I had also looked at the inner door panel where the screws go to retain the door retention strap bracket. (clue3) What I saw was a mismatch between the press nuts and the center of the hole in the door.

The press nuts are 3/8" off of center with the hole. I realized something must be off and I flipped the door over and just stared at things and then I saw what had happened. (WINNER WINNER) Somewhere in the T's life something about 12 to 14 inches long was jammed in the the lower door hinge area when someone or something closed the door rather hard. This pushed the leading edge of the door in and the hinge mount farther into the door.

So now I have a door section to straighten and make sure the hinge mount gets back into place. this will take a little creativeness as I don't think this can be hammer and dolly straightened without a real BFH. The hinge mount is solid and if I beat on it it will move away from the the door edge as it is a spot welded to the door.

Today I decided the only plan of action was to remove the hinge mount bracket and all the crap, Straighten the door, Then straighten the door hinge mount and weld it back in. I managed to get the mount removed with as little damage as possible. I cleaned up the rust and started working the door back to where it was supposed supposed to be. I have it roughed back into shape but still need to work on a couple of low spots. The hinge mount bracket was real wonky so I played around on the anvil and got it back in shape.

Tomorrow I hopefully will have this thing straight and back together and ready for a test fit with the hinges attached. I am feeling confident this will fix the fit problem. Once this is confirmed It will be time to shoot the doors and the inside of the skins. and the last step is to weld up the skins and clinch the edges finally welding the skins up so I am making progress albeit at a molasses in winter pace. I just keep plugging along.

Pictures are self explanatory..
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  #210 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2018, 02:48 AM
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It is good to see you making progress Rip. At this point are you having to remind yourself it's fun?

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