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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2018, 10:38 PM
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Well I mark another milestone in the book today. I have finally finished the framework for the deck lid in the rear. I also bent and formed the top rear edge of the deck lid so it meets evenly with the inside of the body. So I took the original corner braces and use some 1/2 inch box tubing and a piece of 18 GA attached so the flange has something to attach to.

There is a curved piece of metal with weatherstrip attached to seal the area between the inner body and deck lid.

I am going to start the bending process on the rest of the inner shell. This one will be simple with no fancy stuff and will be easier to build from scratch. I have the steel cut and ready to shape so I may do that over the weekend.

At last some progress and soon I can get away from this nightmare....

Enjoy the pictures,
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2018, 11:52 PM
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Good to see you back at it Rip..

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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2018, 09:59 AM
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Nightmare? ....What is that? an acronim for Nostalgic, intimidating, great, heavily, transformed, master, automotive, restoration, exercise.

Surely, you haven't quit enjoying this. You certainly will be proud of it when you are done. Keep up the good work Rip.

John
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2018, 06:55 PM
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I like that John, I am adding that masterful word to the tool box...
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2018, 05:46 PM
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Reality Check Time.
Now that I am on the road to recovery from that nasty crud going around it is back to work and see if I can make any progress.

Previously I finished the upper rear of the Deck lid and the inner structure I made for support and reinforcement. The next step was to build the new inner shell I designed. I had the steel measured rough cut and ready to start bending and forming.

Today I started with a reality check and that was a rough fitting of my parts together to make sure what I am doing works! I measured and everything was on the mark. I laid the parts together to ensure I wasn’t missing anything. It all looks like this is going to work.

I had to bend the flanges on each side of the piece as they are what the skin attaches to. This flat piece is not square as it is wider at the top than it is at the bottom so I had already trimmed up the piece. I had to make a 5/8” flange on each side.

As luck would have it I went to bend the flange with my HF 30” brake. It wasn’t happening! I can cut and bend smaller pieces on my machine but trying to bend a 90 of 18 ga 30” long just is not gonna happen unless you are a gorilla or have two weighty friends handy. The best I could do was about 20 to 30 degrees so it was a matter of hammer and dollying the flange the rest of the way to the 90 deg. It wasn’t as bad as I thought it would be I just went slow and steady and didn’t try to move to much at a time. It took me about an hour and a half but I am personally pleased how it turned out.
So now I will be on to the next part which is working with the shrinker to match the curve of the deck lid. And start the fitting in the rear of the shell. This is fun and addicting. Oh and once I get the shell to match the deck lid I will need to roll a couple of beads in it to. My god I might finish the deck lid by next December……

Oh one more thing, When I bead roll the shell I heard that to minimize distortion of the panel you can do a pre stretch with something like an E-wheel. I don’t have one but I was wondering if a person could do the same thing with a wide curved upper wheel in the top and wide flat wheel in the bottom of my bead roller? I have forward and reverse on the bead roller seems like it might work.. What ya all think?

So here are some pics for public consumption:

1. just laying the panel on top.

2. just making sure the lines go where they should.

3. side view.

4. edge is formed.

5. both edges formed.

6. getting it straight.

7. It fits between the edges like it is supposed to.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2018, 06:26 PM
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A couple of things Rip. First, I am not sure pre stretching the metal with your bead roller would be practical. I believe it might leave more marks and cause more problems than what the benefits were.

Secondly, when making a large panel like that, the center of the panel is not going to want to adapt the curve like the sides do wnen you Shrink/Stretch them. You may have to over do it until you get the curve you want in the middle and then "back up" the sides to get the overall shape right. That is one of the reasons I like to roll the curve into the sheet and then tip the flanges on my bead roller maintaining the shape with the shrinker stretcher jaws.

Thirdly, I frequently make the panel a couple of inches longer while shaping it. The Shrinker/Stretcher will not be as effective at the very end of the panel. Making the curved sides first, then trimming the ends will help that issue.

Please, don't think I am being critical. What you are accomplishing is fantastic. I am only offering a few thoughts that you will discover on your own as you advance your skills. Hopefully, our lessons learned can save you some effort in the future.

John
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2018, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John long View Post
A couple of things Rip. First, I am not sure pre stretching the metal with your bead roller would be practical. I believe it might leave more marks and cause more problems than what the benefits were.

Secondly, when making a large panel like that, the center of the panel is not going to want to adapt the curve like the sides do wnen you Shrink/Stretch them. You may have to over do it until you get the curve you want in the middle and then "back up" the sides to get the overall shape right. That is one of the reasons I like to roll the curve into the sheet and then tip the flanges on my bead roller maintaining the shape with the shrinker stretcher jaws.

Thirdly, I frequently make the panel a couple of inches longer while shaping it. The Shrinker/Stretcher will not be as effective at the very end of the panel. Making the curved sides first, then trimming the ends will help that issue.

Please, don't think I am being critical. What you are accomplishing is fantastic. I am only offering a few thoughts that you will discover on your own as you advance your skills. Hopefully, our lessons learned can save you some effort in the future.

John
Hello John, I do not mind receiving comments both criticism and compliments as long as they are meant to be positive and help me improve. I do not know a heck of a lot about body and fender but I learn from these little exercises, by taking advantage of both positive and negative comments and to listening to people like you.

Using the bead roller was just a off the wall idea. I agree it would make more of a mess. I like bouncing these ideas and thoughts just to see what options are out there.

I initially wanted to roll the piece and then tip the edges with shrinking when necessary like you had suggested but I had a couple problems with that.
First problem is I have a panel that is 31 inches in width and the opening for my roller is only 30" max!

my other problem was tipping that panel and making it work was just a little out of my comfort zone with being able hold the panel and tip it with my limited mobility. Doing the rear of my deck lid edge just about exceeded my ability to hold guide and form.

I did make the part longer on both ends just in case.... I am going to proceed very slowly and hopefully the panel will cooperate with me. here goes a big learning curve.. actually I feel fairly confident if I just go a little at a time and pay attention to everything and the addition of a liberal application of friendly percussive maintenance, The task should be doable. If it fails I have another piece of 18 ready to try again till I get it.. I sure wish I had the learning curve I had back when I was but a young 17 year old.

John thank for the response you made. I appreciate tips,hints, and possible gotchas. I respect your work and abilities and willingness to step up and share what you have to anyone whom wants to listen.

Thanks again John, and BTW the questions will continue.
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Old 03-24-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip VW View Post
Hello John, I do not mind receiving comments both criticism and compliments as long as they are meant to be positive and help me improve. I do not know a heck of a lot about body and fender but I learn from these little exercises, by taking advantage of both positive and negative comments and to listening to people like you.

Using the bead roller was just a off the wall idea. I agree it would make more of a mess. I like bouncing these ideas and thoughts just to see what options are out there.

I initially wanted to roll the piece and then tip the edges with shrinking when necessary like you had suggested but I had a couple problems with that.
First problem is I have a panel that is 31 inches in width and the opening for my roller is only 30" max!

my other problem was tipping that panel and making it work was just a little out of my comfort zone with being able hold the panel and tip it with my limited mobility. Doing the rear of my deck lid edge just about exceeded my ability to hold guide and form.

I did make the part longer on both ends just in case.... I am going to proceed very slowly and hopefully the panel will cooperate with me. here goes a big learning curve.. actually I feel fairly confident if I just go a little at a time and pay attention to everything and the addition of a liberal application of friendly percussive maintenance, The task should be doable. If it fails I have another piece of 18 ready to try again till I get it.. I sure wish I had the learning curve I had back when I was but a young 17 year old.

John thank for the response you made. I appreciate tips,hints, and possible gotchas. I respect your work and abilities and willingness to step up and share what you have to anyone whom wants to listen.

Thanks again John, and BTW the questions will continue.
Thanks Rip. I don't doubt at all you will get there. We all have to work with what we have. It sounds like your going about it the best way you can.

Best of luck.
John
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2018, 08:53 PM
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Progress inch by inch!

I started the slow bend and scream on the inner panel today. I learned a bunch and found some interesting ways to keep the center of the panel from distorting the curve.

As predicted by John I saw evidence of distortion in the curve. I was working a tiny bit at a time. I finally saw a way to help the bend to form evenly. I sound a 1X4 and a hunk of 3 in" round pipe. I laid the pipe cross way left and right across that big hunk of panel. The 1X4 was put on the other side of the panel and secured both pieces with a c clamp. The pipe helped with the curve forming as I could move it back and forward to support the curve. moving slowly and carefully I have the rear lower portion curved everywhere it should be, and so far no gotme's!!

There is the opposite end still to be messed with and I haven't decided how to finish it up yet. I have some ideas but nothing is cast. Next part will be making the rear look petty and then to make the rear final fits. Then I can decide the last fitment before it gets bead rolled.

So a couple of pictures are in order and they pretty well explain themselves. Still a ways to go but getting there..

BTW: A question for my online advisers? How should I go about folding the flange over in the rear when I go to finally put it all together? Is it just standard sneak up on it with a hammer and dolly, Or maybe a long dolly on the skin side anyway thanks.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2018, 10:41 PM
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deck lid skin .

When I did the deck lid on the 31 nash roadster, I scribed it from inside then took the panel to the brake and made a very slight bend in the location to allow a gap to the sides of the lid.It was a single curve not like your 27 double curve, I bent the top and bottom to 90* in the brake then hammered them over the flange on my inner structure . On the sides the slight brake line gave me a line to work to, forming with a hammer and dolly along a little bit at a time back and forth. all my pict are on another computer
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2018, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip VW View Post
question for my online advisers? How should I go about folding the flange over in the rear when I go to finally put it all together? Is it just standard sneak up on it with a hammer and dolly, Or maybe a long dolly on the skin side anyway thanks.
When I fold an edge, if it is straight I like 2x4" wood. If it is curved, I like whichever DuraBlock is my least favorite, or I have a rubber 9" wet sanding block. I only use a metal dolly for the final pass. None of the above should touch the panel face, stay on the radius and watch how hard you hit it. Don't want to stretch that skin edge or bump it out.

I think if I were you and I had stepping dies for the bead roller, I might scribe it like timo then then very lightly roll a step. As a start, since its curved. My question is did the original rumble lids have the same radius on the bottom gap as the rest of the lid? I skinned a 31 Model A rumble lid and man it gets tight down there when opening.
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:40 PM
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Good ideas on the edge.. This being a coupe the top as I call it I believe to be a sharper bend. When I get to that radius I think I will just work the inner to lay across the braces in the top. Tack it to the braces and trim the corners some to allow air to circulate .

That reminds me, I am wondering about some spacing material to use in the 3/8 gap between the inner and out skin. I initially was going to use strips of 18 ga tacked to the inside of the inner shell these things were going to be hat shaped and spot welded to one panel only. I don't like that the metal strips would rub against the skin when vibrated. I also thought about some closed cell foam laid out before I put the 2 pieces together. Any idears?
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Old 03-26-2018, 11:57 PM
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Oh, heck I'd say treat it like a door or hood skin... I believe most folks would use seam sealer, in the way that windshield urethane is used. As a "bed". In a bead, around tight spots. Or tall dots here and there. Applied just before final install of skin (do not lay lid on face while sealer cures, set it on a side) Maybe you could use butyl rubber instead but that migrates. Whatever you do, avoid materials that harden. Popular urethane seam sealers should do. If its hard and sticks you might catch a dent from that. Foam might squeak and or not last. You can stick layered sound deadening in there too. One layer would actually probably prevent problems by itself, with sealer dots. Thats my official late night stab at your Q anyhow. I better quit. Catch you on the flipside.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2018, 12:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip VW View Post
Progress inch by inch!

I started the slow bend and scream on the inner panel today. I learned a bunch and found some interesting ways to keep the center of the panel from distorting the curve.
......
........
.......
...........
............


BTW: A question for my online advisers? How should I go about folding the flange over in the rear when I go to finally put it all together? Is it just standard sneak up on it with a hammer and dolly, Or maybe a long dolly on the skin side anyway thanks.
I hope I understand the question.

If you are referring to the bottom flange running accross the panel, maybe you could cut a heavy piece of angle iron that would just fit between the side flanges and sandwich the panel between another piece of angle or square tubing or even hard wood.. Then you could break the flange with a slapper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rip VW View Post
Good ideas on the edge.. This being a coupe the top as I call it I believe to be a sharper bend. When I get to that radius I think I will just work the inner to lay across the braces in the top. Tack it to the braces and trim the corners some to allow air to circulate .

That reminds me, I am wondering about some spacing material to use in the 3/8 gap between the inner and out skin. I initially was going to use strips of 18 ga tacked to the inside of the inner shell these things were going to be hat shaped and spot welded to one panel only. I don't like that the metal strips would rub against the skin when vibrated. I also thought about some closed cell foam laid out before I put the 2 pieces together. Any idears?
I am not sure myself, you need any spacing material. No bigger than a model T is, I suspect when assembled and welded it is going to be pretty strong. Did you not make it out of 18 gauge?

John
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2018, 11:10 AM
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John,

Yup I am using 18 ga. Sometimes it feels like working 3/16 steel. You are right It will probably be stiff enough that any flexing etc will be absolutely minimal.
IDJ, Good idea about mat and dots. It would be a perfect time to add FatMat or a reasonable facsimile and have it insulated to boot. The dots are a good idea..

I love coming here and tossing ideas around. There is a wealth of information to tap..

Thanks guys, Now back to work or "No Soup For Me"
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