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-   -   Rip Van Winkles 1927 TCoupe on 32 style rails! (https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/rip-van-winkles-1927-tcoupe-32-style-rails-361778.html)

Rip VW 03-06-2015 06:52 PM

Rip Van Winkles 1927 TCoupe on 32 style rails!
 
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A friend of mine suggested I open one of these build pages so people whom are following My Sleepy T project can interact with me if they want to. Not that I am a hermit or nothing but occasionally I don't have a darn thing to say so be patient with my updates.

Now a bit or history. The is the the culmination of two distinct projects that morphed into one. I started this project with a late 1923 TCoupe. the plan was to build a stock full fendered coupe powered by a small block FORD.

As I was getting started I finished a rolling chassis for it and was ready to start mounting the body, when I started asking myself if this was a good direction for this car. My main concern was how would the body stand up to large quantites of Power. I know with a wood body structure in 23 and 24 I think I was just asking for trouble to use that body. I didn't want to have to constantly re align body panels etc. At that point I put the 23 on hold.

I still had these plans and I had a chassis and running gear. Well last year I found a good deal on a titled 27TCoupe body and included were a pair of supposed 32 style rails tacked together with a half built x member. The person I got this from was wanting to use the rails under the coupe but never got any farther than stuffing the rails in the back of the coupe and realizing the frame needed to change a lot.

So The War Dept has green lighted the project with a few boundries so I am trying to at least get the chassis to a roller stage this spring and then the real work begins on all of the sld's.

All of the details on the build are going into my journal So you can follow the journal and get the latest details and if you have anything to say give a shout here. Oh one more thing, Comments are appreciated but remember what you may do in any situation is just that your opinion and does not necessarily mirror mine. Inflamitory remarks will be ignored! Thank you fellow members and here we go...

Rip VW 03-11-2015 02:45 PM

Body Fitting
 
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Well I am working on getting ready to fit the body on the 32 frame rails. I made a template of the bottom of the T body out of Styrofoam. After fitting the template to my frame I determined I need to add one half of a inch of width to my rails in the rear and the frame. will then be the correct dimensions.

It is amazing how one little thing can change a plan so easily. I had initially decided I was going to change the frame rails in the rear to fit under the T body so no major hacking would be needed on the body sub rails. Ahhhh but the unseen damage I found in the body aft part of the sub frame in extensive. I started looking at the patch panels put on by one of the previous owners and saw nothing but a hack job. The panels were layed over rusted rotted old panels. No attempt had been made to clean up the cancer or even fit the patches correctly on the bottom of the body. So I needed to cut the old patch panels away. What I found shocked me!! the rear body sub frame was severely compromised by corrosion and rotted sections of the sub frame. it was so bad I was able to push a hole in the side of the sub frame with my finger!!! NOT GOOD.

So after a lot of looking measuring and contemplating and thinking I decided that I am going to cut out the bad sub frame, fit the body on the the 32 rails and rebuild a new sub frame that actually fits the contour of the 32 rails. This is going to be complicated as I need to build a sub frame that will tie into the existing sub frame. The T coupe sub frame is a wierd shape I can't even describe, but suffice it to say it is NOT even close to the model A sub frame. It is going to take a bit of doing but I think I can pull it off. Lets hope so.

The photos attached show the main damage and 1 picture of the passengers front cowl shows my template under the body and the fit along the cowl is perfect but the rear fit needs adjustment.

Now I am also looking for the best way to protect some of the sub frame steel that is rust pitted but still useable. I am thinking of using Por-15 after I clean and de rust the metal to seal it up. I also thought maybe zinc chromate might be good as it would slow corrosion. If anyone has any suggestions as to what would be the best way to proceed let me know.

MARTINSR 03-11-2015 02:48 PM

Hot damn, those are one of my favorite bodies and you are building it just as I like them, very cool!

Brian

Rip VW 03-13-2015 09:32 AM

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Here I am again.
I finished hacking the bad sub frame from under the coupe. after getting it removed I cut a couple of cross sections out of the bad part and set down with my calipers and made me a drawing of the shape and size of the frame. The T frame is rather odd looking with un equil sides and a slight lean in of the outside rail. The sub frame also has at least 2 different widths. The basic frame has areas where it is narrower than the rest. This unique sizing and shape is going to be a real pain in the rear.

I have been looking for some time to locate a drawing on the sub frame with rail dimensions but had been unable to find anything on line. So while measuring this thing I put together a crude drawing showing the different dimensions of the small and large cross sections.

I thought I would share my drawing with the members just in case someone wanted to know these dimensions. just remember I am not an artist or draftsman.

If anyone has any ideas on how I should proceed with building the new rear section speak up. I have several rough ideas but nothing I have settled on just yet. I am going to build that section after the body is fit to the 32 frame. Ahhh the fun.

TCoupe 03-18-2015 06:38 PM

Rip, I see we do have about the same work to do!

What part of the rear sub-frame are you trying to rebuild? The rear cross member, or the rear part of the sides. If you post a picture of what your trying to fix, I maybe able to help you out. I made a new rear sub-frame cross member, and I am going to be cutting the sub-frame sides, from the front of the wheel wells, to the back off mine, and I'm not going to reuse them. The very ends need to be fixed, about 2-3".

Pat

Rip VW 03-18-2015 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TCoupe (Post 3021666)
Rip, I see we do have about the same work to do!

What part of the rear sub-frame are you trying to rebuild? The rear cross member, or the rear part of the sides. If you post a picture of what your trying to fix, I maybe able to help you out. I made a new rear sub-frame cross member, and I am going to be cutting the sub-frame sides, from the front of the wheel wells, to the back off mine, and I'm not going to reuse them. The very ends need to be fixed, about 2-3".

Pat

Hey Pat,

The literal answer is everything from 4 to 6 inches aft from the door rear edge all the way around to the other door. The rear cross member was nothing but a thin pile of dust. The rear center panel was thinner than notebook paper and had more holes than a block of Swiss cheese!

I am awaiting a delivery next Tues of a New rear center panel, a new rear cross member
2 rear corners, a pair of inner wheel wells and two lower 1/4 patch panels.

I was looking trying to make a decision as to how I wanted the 32 rails to look and got inspired as too how a guy did an A on 32 rails and he gave me the idea to change the body and not the frame.

I have the material for the new sub frame on order and it should be here next week too. The plan on the sub frame is to set and position the body with the rear stuff removed onto the 32 rails and rebuild the sub rail after the body is properly positioned and braced. The new sub rail is simple as possible. I am using some 1 X 2.5 0.087 rectangular steel tubing CREWR.

I was inspired when I found some examples of how that material was grafted into the T sub rails and it is a great fit. Also it keeps lost space at a minimum and because this thing needs floors front to back it makes that part easy. I will form this material over the 32 frame rails by the old pie and slice method. I will meet it up with the new rear cross member in the stock location.

Doing it this way, I get to keep the stock 32 frame look from the side! I have looked at a ton of Tcoups on 32 rails and the majority seem to modify the rear frame rails rather than making the Body set correctly on the frame. Finding this coups sub frame in such non existing condition it just made sense to re do it to fit the rails.

I got a scribbled drawing somewhere around here that shows the concept. Let me dig about and see if I can find it and I will post it. The rear of the 32 frame will only run about 10 inches past of the axle center line as it starts to look out of place after that.

All in all I think this will also be less labor intensive than chopping and bending the frame rails. :cool:

Rip VW 03-19-2015 09:25 AM

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TCoupe,

This is my concept drawing showing how I purpose to fit the body to the frame rails. This should show you how I plan to fit the rear of the body over the rails. Not a draftsman quality but workable drawing.

Rip VW 03-25-2015 10:07 AM

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More work more problems.

I am making progress but at a cost! Each step forward finds a new problem to contend with.

That last problem was calculating ride height as I did not know how much the front end would squat when the car is finished. I posted the problem and I had been told by several people to allow 2.5" for squat. I posed the problem here and a lot of people thought 2.5 was too much. They were suggesting I be more conservative so after thinking about this I decided to go 1.5" instead of 2.5" distance. I figured I was close enough that the change of 1" +- would not affect the rake angle of the frame enough to require recalculation of the cross member angle. This cross member like most made today have the 7 degree castor angle incorporated.

I had a visitor at the shop yesterday and I put him to work!! I used to work with this guy and at one time he was my supervisor. now it was my turn to give the orders. I made him my gopher, My light holder, my human clamp and welding assistant.

Yesterdays task was to break down the temporary setup for the frame and re set the rails using my new figures. I tacked the rails to my uprights on the frame bench and have them ready to install the body on the rails so the body sub frame can be rebuilt and the frame can be positioned to fit the body width before cross members are installed. The uprights are setting on plates clamped to the frame bench so I can slide the rails left and right after positioning the body on them.

A potential problem has surfaced on these frame rails in that when they are set for the body width and if there is no significant adjustments made in width the front rails have to much pinch and is to narrow at the front cross msmber. It looks like a pie cut is going to be needed at the cowl point to spread the front rails.. Oh joy !!!

A last note here about shipping things! I got my order from Howell's yesterday and I was very disappointed with UPS shipping. I picked up the package from my front porch after the ups person just dropped the box on delivery. First look showed damage to the box like crushed end,holes punched in it and I was starting to worry my sheet metal parts were going to be damaged. I photographed the box and damaged areas and then pulled the parts out and started checking them for damage. Well Howell's packed the parts carefully and I did not find any damage to any of the parts. I also noted the stuff was of real good quality.

I am pleased with Howell's quality. I am not pleased with UPS. If it isn't the drivers running over the flower beds, and its drivers doing burnouts in the gravel of my driveway they are banging my shipments up all the time.

I think people should start complaining to shippers that damage packages even if there is no internal damage. There is no excuse for damage to packaging in my opinion.

Ok back out to the shop and get the body ready to lift.

TCoupe 03-25-2015 07:12 PM

Parts look good, my parts were good quality from them also. One thing I found out, before I ordered my parts from them. Is to buy their parts, from their ebay store. No back orders, and the cost is cheaper then from their online store. I know you didn't want to hear that. I will be making another order to them soon.

Pat

Rip VW 03-31-2015 06:32 PM

Yeah TCoupe I should have that time and will next time. I still need a ton of little things and a few big ones and I am about saving some bucks.

Rip VW 03-31-2015 06:36 PM

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Moved the TCoup today. I have the frame all set at ride height and what I figured to be correct dimensions using my template I made.

I had my “Human Forklift” come over this morning. He is my go to guy when I need heavy lifting done. So with the cherry picker, an engine removal equalization bar, and 4 ratchet straps we set about to move the body over and set it on the frame for some finalization adjustments before the chassis is locked down for cross members and brackets.

The first glance at the body setting on the frame it looks good. I spent a bit of time just looking at it. I had made marks on the frame for reference so when the body was set I would know real quickly where the firewall was on the frame for measurements. We set the fire wall Spot on 32” aft of the axle C/L.

Frame width looked good in the front but real hard to judge in the rear because body metal is gone. I set a patch panel in place and I am close there.

Of course when you are moving forward things seem to work against you to slow progress. That problem cropped up when I was looking at the wheel well. It seems that when I use the stock dimensions 32” aft of axle C/L it puts the rear wheel well to far forward in relation to the frame rise. If I set the body 34” aft things look better in the rear but the front of the body looks odd in relation to the frame reveal. It is kind of hard to explain what I mean so I enclosed a couple of edited pictures.

So I can leave the firewall at 32 and modify the rear of the frame so I have correct axle travel but I am reluctant to do that big of a change to the rail. After all I did the body mods so the frame could remain UN hacked.
I can move the fire wall 2 inches back and set it at 34 to make the frame match better in the real but then the body seems to far back from the reveal..

Oh what is a person to do? I am open to suggestions what would you do in this situation? Feedback appreciated!!

Rip VW 04-02-2015 10:45 AM

Hey anyone have any ideas as to how i should proceed with this body positioning problem I have? Anyone, Someone, Hellllllllllpppppp

Flipper_1938 04-20-2015 11:00 PM

I would set the front axle to the firewall distance the way you want it (tapered front frame would show modifications) and make any frame modifications in the rear wheelwell area (hidden behind the rear tire/less scrutinized).

Rip VW 04-21-2015 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flipper_1938 (Post 3090306)
I would set the front axle to the firewall distance the way you want it (tapered front frame would show modifications) and make any frame modifications in the rear wheelwell area (hidden behind the rear tire/less scrutinized).

Hi ya Flipper,
Thanks for your comments. Yep I decided to keep my measurements right where they should be in front and work the rear as a separate issue. In fact I have the rear problem figured out and finally made a commitment to a rear suspension setup.

The rear suspension will be a parallel 4 link on the inside of the frame rails. The airbags are history and I will use adjustable coil overs. I haven't decided which centering method to use on the rear end. The method I will use will be either a standard pan hard bar or a Watts Link. I am really leaning towards the watts just because I like the look of the exposed parts of a watts.

Oh yeah the frame will be modified in the rear to allow setting the rear end housing where it needs to be.

I am currently working on the rear body sub frame. As soon as I get the 1 X 2 1/2 tubing bent up I will pull the body back off and get serious about finishing the frame to roller status. I need to get it that far so that I can move it and the frame rack. I need to get my 23 Tcoupe cleaned up ready to go and sold before the Sleepy T swallows my wallet whole and me with it.

On a last note I am trying to finish my latest update posting on the Sleepy T project. I just need to do some final edits and I will post it here with real untouched photographs and everything!!!!!!

Stay tuned

Rip VW 04-27-2015 04:58 PM

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End of April update.

Review Time

I moved the TCoup body onto the frame for the first time. I have the frame mounted on the frame rack and all set at ride height and what I figured to be correct width dimensions using my template I made.

I had my “Human Forklift” Mr. Stillings come over one morning and be the muscles behind the move. He is my go to guy when I need heavy lifting done. you know strong back weak minded. hahah So with the cherry picker, an engine removal equalization bar, and 4 ratchet straps we set about to move the body over and set it on the frame for some finalization adjustments before the chassis is locked down for cross members and brackets.

The first glance at the body setting on the frame it looks good. I spent a bit of time just looking at it. I had made marks on the frame for reference so when the body was set I would know real quickly where the firewall was on the frame for measurements. We set the fire wall Spot on 32” aft of the axle C/L. That is the stock 32 dimensions.

The frame width looked good in the front but real hard to judge in the rear because body metal was gone. I did set a patch panel in place and I think I am close on the measurements.

Of course when you are moving forward and making progress, things seem to work against you to slow you down. That problem cropped up when I was looking at the rear wheel well.

It seems the rear curve of the frame was in the wrong place in relation to the wheel well. It looked to be some 3” farther to the rear than where calculations said it should have been.

The center of the arch or curve of the frame was farther aft than the Center Point of the wheel well. I rechecked my dimensions in the front and the firewall was spot on the stock dimensions of 32” aft of axle C/L. I had decided to stick with the 32” dimension to allow use of a semi stock hood at some time. It is also a stock dimension for a 32 frame.

So how did I manage to screw up by 4 inches. The answer, Confusion on my part! When figuring the 32 frame I was setting it up according to where the 27 body mounts had to be as a reference. I had to switch between the T sub frame drawings and translate that to locations on the 32 frame. The big thing that slipped through was a simple fact The 2 bodies are different lengths. I missed that fact and for a while I thought I could just move the body back 4 inches but that isn’t going to work!

If you look at a 32 rail from the side with a coupe body on it the firewall starts almost on the reveal in the frame. I have seen bodies on 32 rails set back all different distances. To me the body just looks right setting in the stock position!

So here I am looking at some serious changes in the rear frame area. I have been looking over a million different methods of fixing this wheelbase thing and in my search stumbled upon how to fix this problem a lot easier and leave the body in the correct position.

I have finally settled on a rear suspension. I am going to Adjustable parallel 4 link mounted on the inside of the frame. I tossed out the Airbag idea and will go with Coil Overs instead.

I am hoping the new rear suspension plan going to look good and function even better. Now I just need to finish the new body sub frame.

So after scooting the body all over and finalizing the frame numbers I took this opportunity to set the front cross member in place and tack it in. I set the top of the cross member level and checked the caster. I have 7 degrees of caster in the bottom of the cross member where the spring mounts. I set up this cross member with the frame at the ride rake angle so everything should be the same after assembly.

I stretched my center line from the front cross member to the rear center point and I hit it bang on.
Now that the front cross member is set and tacked in place I can switch up and do the body sub frame.


Ok with all of this work on suspension on temporary hold it was back to the frame and body fitting.

I had already removed a lot of sub frame that was rotted and now it was time to determine where the new sub frame would meet the old and then getting the tubing curved and molded to the rear frame rail. I have made 1 sub frame rail so far and I am not happy with it.

After cutting and welding the tube It just looked like crap. I didn’t make pie cuts but rather a single cut through three sides and just closed the opening and welded it. I ground the welds down and it looks better, but I think am going to use this first one as a pattern to bend the next set of rails in a jig I am building.

My thought is I can bend this 1 X 2.5 .086 box tube with C clamps and my hydraulic press. I have 1 piece of tubing left to set up my jig and I have 2 of the last pieces on order.

I am building a set of pattern blocks to clamp the steel to while I bend it to the required shape. I am building this pattern on the fly so it is not a fast assembly.

So that brings you back up to speed on the project. Right now I am waiting for more sub frame steel to arrive. I knew I should have ordered extra when I ordered the first pieces. Oh well we live and learn.

MARTINSR 04-27-2015 09:38 PM

That is all looking so good.

Brian

Rip VW 04-28-2015 08:49 AM

Thanks for the encouragement Brian, Sometimes it seems like one step forward and three steps back. I am determined to do this the right way.

Rip VW 05-13-2015 12:18 PM

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Progress although slow is moving ahead. I touched on making sub rails for the back of the T body earlier. Everything structural from the doors back was in sorry shape. I needed to replace the sub frame from the doors back. I also needed to curve the sub rails over the kick up in the 32 frame.

My first attempt to build sub rails was not exactly what I was looking for. I used a "Cut and weld method" to form the 1 X 2.5 inch rectangular tube over the frame rail. This worked good for keeping the curves of the rail close to the frame profile. It may have fit well but it looked like crap or something from the twilight zone. Too much welding and grinding and I was not happy at all with the result.

So after a lot of reading I decided this needs to be bent. I figured if I made a jig I could set the whole rail in a jig and press it in my 12 ton press.

Well it almost worked. As I reach about 3/4 of he distance I needed to go the rail buckled. OK try # 2 failed.

More reading and research and I had another plan. This time I was going to use heat and sand, and My Jig and My press. I secured 2 more replacement pieces of steel and taped up one end and filled them with sand. I sealed the tubes and set one in my Wooden Jig and got things ready to go. I added some pressure with the press and lit up my torch. I heated the apex of the first bend to a real low red. I then backed off the heat and added pressure to the piece with the press till I could feel the load increase and then I would stop and heat again. I continued until I ran out of jig. My jig was getting a bit burned from the heat and torch.

I removed the rail and laid it in place over the main frame. Of course it needed more bending so I clamped in to the main frame and used a bunch of C clamps and more heat and formed the rail and made sure it was fully clamped in place. I then used my torch to heat the tube in all of the bent places and stress locations That should realign the steel molecules to reduce stress and bend back. The sand in the tube kept the tube hot for a long time. After getting the tube hot I left it clamped up till the next day.

When I removed the clamps there was very little bend back. The sub rails fit real good and the bends were excellent.

The second rail was a bit more of a struggle as by then the wood jig was starting to deform and was burnt pretty bad in the bend areas. I could not get the bends perfect but What I did get was a looking good where it needs to be and 100% useable.

Next step is to remove the rear panel of the body so all of the sheet materiel and rear sub frame can be attached to the new sub frame.

Photos
1. first try with cut and fit.
2. pre bend fixture
3. pre bend fixture Completed
4. first usable sub rail
5. front view of new sub rail.

**Side note: i used some 3/16 steel rods bent over the jig and then I placed the rectangular tube over this. This helped the steel start its bend inside and helped keep things straight.

Rip VW 06-17-2015 08:48 PM

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In my last post I kind of ended that update with out finishing it. So I will pick up where I left off.


I had already removed a lot of sub frame that was rotted and now it was time to determine where the new sub frame would meet the old and then getting the tubing curved and molded to the rear frame rail. I have made 1 sub frame rail so far and I am not happy with it.

After cutting and welding the tube It just looked like crap. I didn’t make pie cuts but rather a single cut through three sides and just closed the opening and welded it. I ground the welds down and it looks better, but I think am going to use this first one as a pattern to bend the next set of rails in a jig I am building.
My thought is I can bend this 1 X 2.5 .086 box tube with C clamps and my hydraulic press. I have 1 piece of tubing left to set up my jig and I have 2 of the last pieces on order.
I am building a set of pattern blocks to clamp the steel to while I bend it to the required shape. I am building this pattern on the fly so it is a process of trying this and that.

Sub rail building was not a lot of fun. bending the final sets of tubes using my wood jig, C clamps, hydraulic press, Acetylene torch, and lots of sand is not something I would like to do again. I finally have a set of left and right sub frame rails. The rails came out pretty nice all considered. Next time I will get a pro to build them for me.

So, on to the next item of business. I need to repair the back of the body. The center panel rebuild will be the next key as the panel is attached to the rear sub frame cross member, which attaches the sub frame to the rear of the body. I liken it to a giant jigsaw puzzle you need to figure what piece depends on what other pieces need be fit first.
So stay tuned my friends.

TCoupe 06-18-2015 07:40 PM

Rip,
Looks like you have been having fun. I know what you say about the rear panel. I just made a new top cross member, and both side braces, and rebuilt a center brace for a guy. He couldn't find any good parts anywhere. Talk about bending slicing, and welding, and then cut again, because it wasn't just right! Now it looks better then the ones I have.

You say that next time you'll have a pro build them, but now when someone says where did you get the sub-frames, you can say "Made them myself!" instead of "I paid $xxx.xx to have some one make them for me!" I try to build everything I can myself. I just replace the other quarter panel corner. I wasn't going to, but decided that I didn't want to fix it with body mud. My quarters looked like someone shot it #00 buck shot a few times, on each side on the rear corners. then brazed some steel over the holes. It was up to 3/4 inch in places. I'm no body guy, but I sat with a pick hammer & dolly, and worked it back into looking & feeling like it should (in the mid 90's, and high humidity). It will have a little skim of mud to make sure it's smooth, but that's it now. Now I get to put every thing back together on the rear end. I have to re-rivet the T strips & rain gutters back on first.

Good luck, I'll be watching.
Pat

Rip VW 06-18-2015 11:20 PM

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I am slow on my updates lately. I have almost finished my rear center panel rebuild/replacement. Getting the center panel out was fun. It was riveted and bolted together in the rear. The bolts being rusted and such were very cooperative when removing them. (NOT).

The damage was extensive with the left and right braces eaten off on the ends and extensive rust all along the length. The center post was gone from the tab that mounts it to the cross member to the end, The top portion was in pretty good condition. Main cross member was just a loosely arranged bunch of rust. The ends of the sub frame that the cross member was attached to were also just so much dust and chips.

I built the 2 vertical side pieces from scratch using some of my left over box tube. Not as pretty as I wanted but the fit is exactly like the stock pieces and even looks original.

The center brace was absent it's lower portion and so I trimmed all the damaged material from the last 2 inches and replaced it with new steel. I used a piece of square tubing on the back side to to replace the spine portion of the brace. The top cross portion of the center piece was fairly solid but I added some 3/4 wide strips across the top to give some more support.

A lot of fitting and refitting and I have the framework attached to the rear cross member. I have had the skin on and off a couple of times and right now I am getting ready to put the skin on for the last time.

Because all of this steel is new and is in a location that lends itself to rust in a big way. I wanted to give it some extra protection.

I decided to try some spray on bed liner on the center panel skeleton and on the sheet metal skin all along the lower part the center and ends that set in the rain channel. My theory is the bed-liner will keep the steel all nice and cozy for years to come against dirt and dust and water.. I am at the point where when everything cures I will fit it one more time and then attach the skin for good. Then on to the the quarter panel ends and then the focus shifts back to the frame to finish all the cross members. and hang the suspension so I can finally get the thing off the frame rack.

OK, that wraps up the progress up to today. I am feeling a case of summer fever coming on so may take a few days and just coast maybe a nice road trip.
Till Next time.....

Rip VW 06-18-2015 11:51 PM

Hey T coupe,

Yeah I got to admit I enjoyed doing this. it allowed me to work a little out of the box by recreating the replacement parts.

Once I get the center panel finished, marked, measured and such then I can do the quarter ends. I want to make sure things fit so when I open up the quarters and pull the rain channel loose I know how things are supposed to fit. After removing some rivets and manipulating the rain channels away from the quarters so I can replace the corners. According to theory if I am careful I will get it to fit all Back just like new.... Right?????

I have I think 2 holes in the quarters that will need fixed and I think I am going to use a technique my Grandfather taught me years ago and that was to use Lead to fill and repair holes. Oh I hear them now... Not lead they say.. Poison and all. Oh no call the EPA..

Yes I use lead from time to time because it is so mice to work and easy to apply. You can get it to look so good no mud is necessary except a very light skim coat if even that.. I love to solder and braze and I love working with easy to work materials. I have done quite a few Harley Davidson fender repairs and some custom work and have used lead a lot. There used to be a spot on the FL Harley rear fenders everyone wanted filled or messed with. and the spot was just slightly larger than a penny I would take an old copper penny clean it real good and solder the penny over the hole to plug it. Then lead in over the top and poof another fender hole made to disappear.

OK, off to dreamland for the evening :cool:

TCoupe 06-19-2015 06:02 AM

Rip,
You have a typical '26/27 T. You have the "New improved model" with the metal around the rear windows, instead of the wood, but they quit using the four bolt spare tire mount in '26, and went to a three bolt hole mount. He did it to save the cost of one bolt & nut. Mine is a three bolt mount, and wood around the rear windows. But they also used parts till they were gone, so it could be the reason why.

Fords bad idea was for the rain gutters to just dump the rain water into the rear behind the sub-frame on the coupes, that is why they are all rusted out back there.

His other bad idea was to put the brake in the tranny, to stop the drive train, through the drive shaft, to the rear end, through the axles, to the skinny tires. Everyone knows what happens when you go down the road, and pull the E-brakes.

Your car is looking good.

Have a good day. Pat

Rip VW 06-30-2015 05:39 PM

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Today I have done something I have never done before and that is weld on a body panel and metal finish it.
Some will remember my problems in the welding thread about MiG welding thin sheet metal. I found I was having machine problems. That fixed, I jumped into replacing the Right rear quarter panel corner.

I cut the bad metal out using the new corner as a template. I then took a 1" strip of sheet metal and spot welded ( With my handy Harbor Fright spot welder) it to the top inside edge of my replacement panel and slipped the sheet metal under the T quarter. Then I butted my new panel up as tight as I could and spot welded the strip in place.
Next step was to spot stitch with the MiG. I would do about 5 spots then hit the panel with air. I kept the temperature of the panel to room temp and it turned out pretty damn good for a beginner. I did learn Mig welds are harder than heck to hammer down. A lot of stitching, hammering, and grinding and it is almost complete. I may draw file it a little more but for now I am going to jump on the other side before I forget how I did this. Just a couple a pics today a before, during, and after.

TCoupe 06-30-2015 06:39 PM

Rip,
Looks good! I have been having problems lately with my mig welding good also. Some days I couldn't ask for better welds, and then some it won't weld worth a crap! I've replaced the liner, ground clamp, put a cleaner on it, one day I welded the ground clamp to the metal, because it act's like a bad ground! Arrrr! I have to go buy some new contact tips, and .023 wire. What was wrong with your welder?

I was cleaning off some bad weld, on a part in the vise, and I caught my thumb with my 4 1/2" grinder, oooooh :pain: did that hurt, I jumped up & down for a bit, then raped kleenex on it, and raped some tape on it, and continued to grind. Damn, that's going to leave a mark.

They do sell a softer wire, that hammers down better, so day before I finish welding on the body, I might get some. LOL

I separated the upper parts of the quarters above the belt line, Wow was there a lot of surface rust under there! I cleaned it up, and it was good and solid under it. Glad I did it, even if it's a pain in the butt to do, I'm going to coat it with Rust seal. I know now the rust won't bleed down, after painting it.

Rip VW 06-30-2015 09:56 PM

Thanks for the compliment there Pat. I will say I was surprised it turned out as good as it did. Yep if you haven't drawn blood yet you are destined to loose some. I cut the web of my hand yesterday playing with that sheet metal. I try to always remember your playing with razor blades but even I slip once in a while. The upside is I am helping the economy by having to buy Hydrogen Peroxide in the large volume drums..

TCoupe 07-01-2015 07:05 AM

Rip,
When I went into the house after a hour or so the wife spotted the tap, and asked "What did you do this time." She made me wash it out, and then put peroxide on it (we also have several bottles of it), I told her she just like to see me in pain, she just smiled. And back to working after she got done. The burning from the grinder,. hurts much more then the cut it's self.

Pat

Rip VW 07-01-2015 10:20 AM

I know what you mean about the other half. I am bald on top and the skin is getting real thin. It seems I have a propensity for bumping my head and now "The War Dept" is threatening to make me wear a helmet out in the shop! After this latest gash on my hand she now wants to wrap me in a layer of Bubble wrap. I said only if the bubble wrap is aluminized so I can make myself a AFDB. (aluminum foil deflector beanie):mwink:

lakeroadster 07-02-2015 08:25 AM

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That panel weld looks great. I am a bit surprised you didn't have a lot of pinholes though. Cleanliness is godliness when it comes to TIG and MIG. I'd suggest getting the steel cleaned adjacent to the proposed weld location of all rust, paint, oils, etc. before welding. I think you will find things will progress much easier.

Hope that helps.

Rip VW 07-02-2015 09:00 AM

I was really surprised that it turned out so well. The picture above was of fitting the panel. then I very carefully cleaned the quarter where the panel fit. It was nice and clean and shinny both the front and back. I had to do the sanding initially by hand as a power tool would remove to much metal and make the panel too thin.

My earlier practice on the bench showed me that hitting it even lightly with a power grinder or power sander just removed to much metal. I cleaned the metal all by hand being extremely careful not to remove metal...:sweat:

Rip VW 07-10-2015 01:54 PM

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A little more progress has been Had. I have the left rear corner in place and welded initially. I need to grind down the excess but this side was even easier than the first. (Bit of a learning curve). I had finished rebuilding the center panel about a week or so ago and so after welding in this last corner patch I went ahead and put the center panel in place to check fit and alignment. I am pleased but I see I am going to have to work the T strip a little bit I did not see it was bent slightly. All in all I like how it is coming along.

I had to finish the corners and get the center panel finished so I can position the body and get ready to fit the body replacement Sub Rails. I wanted to have the structure of the rear completed so when I fit the Sub Rails I would have accurate dimensions for the rear body mounts. there is no room for error with the sub rails because they will be 1/8" away from the frame itself and they follow the curve of the frame up and over.

With this part of the body ready I have all the rest of the dimensions I need to finish up the chassis to roller status.

Next step is to remove the body and get serious with the frame. Cross members and mounts.

Progress is slow but steady...

Pictures show before and after. Remember nothing is completely finished yet.

TCoupe 07-10-2015 08:04 PM

Rip,
Looks good!

Are you going to pull the T strips out to clean under them? On mine, I'm glad I did. I wouldn't have found the bad area under T strip, at the belt line. Which caused me the split both sides belt lines apart.

You got ahead of me. lol

I have not been working on mine, I have outside house, and yard stuff to get done (honey do list), replacing fascia boards, and rain gutters (in the rain no less).

I have parts soaking in molasses. I was suppose to clean them a few days ago, but oh well, looks like tomorrow I will. Then put the rust sealer where needed, then I can put every thing back on also, so that I can finish my sub-frame, and tub it.

I see the dents in your quarter. Mine were just as bad on both sides, but someone bondo over them without trying to knock them out at all. I stripped about a 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of mud off my quarters (and they are small quarters), top and bottom. The body is mostly smooth underneath, I don't understand why he put such a thick layer over everything. I have hammered them out, and I just got a metal shrinking disc, and about ready to tackle some stretched areas, the body is completely down to bare metal now, waiting for epoxy primer.

Then back to the frame.

Keep up the good work!

Pat

Rip VW 07-10-2015 11:53 PM

I agonized over the T Strip decision. I wanted to believe in my mind that it was going to be good enough that there was no hidden damage. I still believe there is no damage but there is enough surface rust between the seams and under the T strip it demands that I take it apart!!!! Damn can of worms..

I have been mulling this over in my head. It looks like a straight forward job but with the surprises I have already had I am not holding my breath. The body is coming off the frame next week and going to my large flat table. There I will get everything square and see where I stand. After I verify it will set plumb I think I will blow it open at the belt line and the T strip so I can clean the metal and prep it and shoot a good cover coat of paint on the seams then put it back together.

Doing it that way I will save pain and agony later. See I talked myself into it. ha ha Taking the body apart on the flat table will be the best plan on moving forward with the body. I can keep it plumb and level all the way around.
Hey Pat, Speaking of tearing it apart at the belt line, I haven’t even given it more than a cursory glance but is the belt line made the same way as the T strips? What holds it in place?
Well enough for this weekend. I think I am going fishing tomorrow!!!

TCoupe 07-11-2015 06:48 AM

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Rip,
Going fishing! I haven't done that in years. We have two ponds on our land, one leaks dry, which is a easy fix, the other I'm going to have stocked. It has catfish, and 2 large koi's in it. I want to put some bass, and blue gills in it also. They say after a couple years I can fish them.

To remove the T strips, you'll need to remove the back window panel, then drill out the rivets along the strips, it still won't come out. You will need to find the spot welds along it, and drill through them. The rain gutters are on the back side of the quarters, and the T strips are on the front side of the quarters. I believe you'll find more surface rust then you want to think there is. I cleaned mine up, and going to put my rust seal on the edge to stop future rust from starting.

I bought the rivets, and I'm going to re-rivet it all back together, It' easy to do, and holds tight.

To split the belt line, you'll need to remove the insert on the door jam of the "B" pillar. I heated the nut inserts from the back side with a propane torch, and the screws came right out. You'll need to split three spot welds on the back panel edge, and a spot weld on the inside of the brace that goes there to the sub-frame. You will need to split all the spot welds around the top, and front of the quarter window. I I drilled them then I used a air chisel, and it went quick. Then you'll have to remove the bolts along the bottom edge, then you'll have to work the top lip off the roof framing, and work it to the front "B" pillar, which is folded over also. Don't pull outward top hard, you might bend the outside edge a little, trust me, I did, but it's a easy fix. You'll find a bunch of heavy surface rust under the belt line.

It goes back on a LOT easier then it comes off. I'm glad I did mine, I know it would have been a problem down the road. I through the top panels into my molasses tank, and they have been soaking for almost two weeks. I just have not had the time to remove them, and clean them off.

Good luck.

Pat

MARTINSR 07-11-2015 11:56 AM

Does it have to be riveted or can you bolt it?

I'm sorry if I miss something I haven't kept up with your thread here, do you plan on epoxy priming all your stuff before you reassemble, because that is what you should do.

Brian

Rip VW 07-11-2015 01:23 PM

Brian,

The riveting back of the T Strips won't be a problem. I have many years riveting experience on aircraft. I also have a 3X gun and a variety of bucking bars. I really do think a person could just bolt it together if they were so inclined. Maybe even use recessed head screws.

I am glad you stepped in Brian, as I was going to ask you what type of primer I should I use on this to be compatible with a Base-Clear system? What do you recommend product wise?

Fishing was good this morning, I caught 3 good pan trout.

TCoupe 07-11-2015 02:18 PM

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Rip,
3trout, Umm. I love eating fish, the wife, not so much!

You cam screw it back together, I have been putting on, and taking off the parts with 10/32 screws, you wouldn't have to use recessed screws, the rivet heads on the outside are round heads. You would have to drill each hole bigger if you wanted to use bigger bolts, the holes are only for 3/16 rivets, I think about .210 dia hole. When I am done screwing around, and ready to install them for the last time, I will rivet them. For the size they will be stronger, and tight, and look clean. I also have other parts that were riveted, that I have taken a part, that I have to rivet back together. in fact, I have to install about 55-60 rivets!

I had to change the dash mounts ( see pictures) when I changed my cowl, they get riveted in. The round head in back, and counter sunk in the door jam.

I am coating the seams, and rain gutters with the rust seal, and then epoxy primer on everything. I have everything down to bare metal.

Oh, I didn't get the parts cleaned today either, I had to mow.

Pat

Rip VW 07-11-2015 10:30 PM

Hey Pat? Do you have any detail pictures of the bottom of the B pillar? I know I have a problem with the drivers B pillar where it attaches to the sub rail and would like to see how it is supposed to be.

Thanks

TCoupe 07-12-2015 06:30 AM

Rip,
I am going outside to mow in a little while, it takes me 4 1/2 hrs, good thing I started yesterday, after I get done, I'll take some pictures of the "B" pillar mounting. I have the insert off, so it will show the insides. I'll post them later for ya. If you need any other pictures, just ask, mine is apart to the point, I can show just about anything on it.

I don't know if I asked you this before, Do you have the spare tire mount, the part that bolts to the body, and are you going to use it?

Pat

TCoupe 07-12-2015 02:35 PM

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Rip,
I got you some pictures of the passengers side. It's hard to see the rivets that hold it to the sub-frame, in the pictures. The little tubes you see are around the screws, are spacers (they slip off), that hold the insert out flush to the "B" pillar. There are some washers over some of them to shim them in spots also.

I actually got my parts cleaned. I started to mow, and it started to rain, so I started to clean my parts, and it stopped raining, and the sun came out. I pressure washed them, and they sure turned out clean. That molasses does work good.

Pat


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