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Old 11-17-2017, 04:04 PM
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Just found a local shop that will replace the axle bearings on my 1962 Bel Air. He said I could furnish the parts. I can bring the axles to him and he will press the old ones off and the new ones on for $50

The original axle bearings are fine but a long time ago, my Dad told me I should always
"replace the axle bearings and the pilot bearing when I could touch them."

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2017, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by EragonSuperH View Post
I was chatting with a summit representative about these (pn. 17001-16) comp cams roller rocker arms for my SBC 350 that a lot of you already know about. Currently have roller tip rockers with my solid flat tappet cam but I'm having to adjust the valves somewhat frequently (pushrods are still spinning so the lifters are okay). I was told I need to run guide plates with these full rollers, but the heads I have on the motor have guide slots milled into them. Would it work to forego the use of guide plates and just use the slots milled in the heads? Also I heard something about shims being used with full roller rockers? Would I need shims or would I simply adjust the lash with the poly locks like I do now with the roller tips?
The roller rockers with a ball fulcrum are not designed for operation at or beyond 6000 RPM, there just isn't sufficient top end oil flow to cool this type trunion. This is why Harland Sharp developed the roller trunion rocker back in 1960 as racing RPMs and race durations were killing ball and trunion rockers. Given most solid tappet cams are not all that mild this cam can be working these rockers beyond their design limits.

Rockers using Poly-locks need to have the rocker stem tip squared off, these usually have tooling marks that make it difficult for the Allen screw to get enough bite to make a steady connection with the tip of the stud. Over tightening usually cracks the Poly-lock, these are made of a pretty brittle metal, plenty strong but very stiff so twisting the daylights out of the Allen screw usually causes this.

Another problem where high RPMs and spring pressures are involved is that 3/8ths dia. studs tend to wander a bit above their hex. This will eventually lead to a failure of the shaft at the hex, sometimes results in the bottom of the stud working the threads of itself and the head till it comes loose, this is assuming you machined the heads to take the hex style screw in stud, the solution here is a full 7/16ths stud. If you used the hex less shank screw in stud these wander all over the place they have no stability. The same for the factory pressed-in studs to which you can add they pull out.

Push rod spin has nothing to do with wear on the cam lobe to rocker face, these are not hydraulics, if the lash is too loose they clatter, if too tight they open the valve. You can get a hydraulic to do (open the valve) that but you'll have to crank it down till the plunger is against the bottom of the lifter's i.d. bore.

You only need guide plates if the heads never had the built in guide or they've been machined out. Also, those engines that came with no guides or with assembly aid guides and self-guiding rockers, these are found only on passenger engines 1986 and up with OEM roller cams, but not all of them. A note for future reference; when using hex bottomed studs the stud boss must be machined to provide a flat and congruent surface for the bottom of the hex to stress on. These studs if not using a guide plate typically have a .5 inch thread on the bottom. However, if you use a guide plate not only will the stud boss milling have to be lowered for its thickness but you also need to use a stud with a 3/4qtr inch long thread to get the same bite as a .5 inch long thread stud with no guide plate, not doing this is a sure-fire of pulling the threads out and probably cracking the boss (especially on an aluminum head). For aluminum heads I like a properly placed Heli-Coil between the stud and the aluminum. The Heli-Coil threads deeper into the wall of the aluminum which spreads the stresses over more area reducing the thread strain. This helps keep the stud more steady and locked in place and reduces the loads on the softer aluminum threads that would otherwise be in direct contact with the stud's threads.

You can use shims on any rocker except self-guided (there you need to check side to side clearance) but you will probably have to use a valve with an extra .05 inch above the lock to prevent the shim from being pressed onto the locks and risking disturbing their security.

As you should being seeing is that building a high performance engines involves a lot of understanding that the devil is in the details and it takes tons of research to know these little but vastly important things.

Bogie
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2017, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
The roller rockers with a ball fulcrum are not designed for operation at or beyond 6000 RPM, there just isn't sufficient top end oil flow to cool this type trunion. This is why Harland Sharp developed the roller trunion rocker back in 1960 as racing RPMs and race durations were killing ball and trunion rockers. Given most solid tappet cams are not all that mild this cam can be working these rockers beyond their design limits.

Rockers using Poly-locks need to have the rocker stem tip squared off, these usually have tooling marks that make it difficult for the Allen screw to get enough bite to make a steady connection with the tip of the stud.

Bogie
So is it possible that my locks are coming loose (I didn't square off the top of the studs,) and my ball fulcrum trunions are wearing out?
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Old 11-18-2017, 09:28 AM
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ARP rocker studs have a dimple in the end of the stud for the Allen set screw of the poly lock to lock in. Stock or stock aftermarket replacement rocker studs do not have a dimple and are prone to loosen. Stock replacement rocker studs also have a irregular end surface an the Allen set screw will loosen, even if you square them off with a bench grinder.

Back in 1965, I tried to use stock ball fulcrum rocker arms with a SB Chevy 30-30 solid lifter camshaft and Crane valve springs with 120/290 lb pressure. I burned (turned blue) several rocker arms. The 409 Chevy oil pump and stock pushrods were spurting oil over the rocker arms and the rocker ball was receiving less oil and was running hot. I tried aftermarket grooved rocker balls with marginal results. The heat treatment of the grooved rocker balls is questionable.

That GM 30-30 camshaft had some flat lobes after a few weeks. I replaced it with another GM 30-30 camshaft but used GM Chevrolet edge orifice solid lifters from the local Chevrolet dealership. The edge orifice lifters were designed for the 30-30 camshaft and improves rocker pivot ball oiling by REDUCING the volume oil oil sent to the rocker arms. With edge orifice lifters, the oil flows out of the pushrod sockets into the ball fulcrum and better oils the rocker balls rather than shooting oil over the rocker pivot ball. Chevrolet introduced the edge orifice solid lifters just to solve that problem in comparison the standard GM solid lifters that were used on the early Duntov solid lifter camshafts. Most solid roller lifters have a edge orifice oil feed holes.

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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2017, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EragonSuperH View Post
So is it possible that my locks are coming loose (I didn't square off the top of the studs,) and my ball fulcrum trunions are wearing out?
This is possible in both cases. Also keep in mind the if these are new parts in the valve train that as they break-in there will be small amounts of wear in each piece/part interface that will show up as minor changes of the initial lash setting due to all wear in of mated parts and manufacturing stresses working out of the parts. This should settle down quickly, but may take a couple adjustments early on, then drop into a routine. This is a big reason the OEMs went hydraulic as solids do require some constant attention. As performance and competition engines go this is frequent to how hard the engine is pushed into higher RPMs and power outputs. Back in the days when even grocery-gitters had solids adjustment on mom and pop car engines was for sure with every tune up which was certainly not more than every 10,000 miles and if you were a guy that stayed on top of engine tune you did a mid way minor tune of clean and adjust the points, plugs, and lash half way through the tune up. If you were a rodder this was done monthly or even more often. We're now 50 years into commonly applied electronic ignition and 70 years into common use of hydraulic lifters, there aren't many of us who are old enough to remember what it was like to tune engines back in the "good old days". So going to sold lifters you're going to relive a piece of those times.

Bogie
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2017, 10:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
This is possible in both cases. Also keep in mind the if these are new parts in the valve train that as they break-in there will be small amounts of wear in each piece/part interface that will show up as minor changes of the initial lash setting due to all wear in of mated parts and manufacturing stresses working out of the parts. This should settle down quickly, but may take a couple adjustments early on, then drop into a routine. This is a big reason the OEMs went hydraulic as solids do require some constant attention. As performance and competition engines go this is frequent to how hard the engine is pushed into higher RPMs and power outputs. Back in the days when even grocery-gitters had solids adjustment on mom and pop car engines was for sure with every tune up which was certainly not more than every 10,000 miles and if you were a guy that stayed on top of engine tune you did a mid way minor tune of clean and adjust the points, plugs, and lash half way through the tune up. If you were a rodder this was done monthly or even more often. We're now 50 years into commonly applied electronic ignition and 70 years into common use of hydraulic lifters, there aren't many of us who are old enough to remember what it was like to tune engines back in the "good old days". So going to sold lifters you're going to relive a piece of those times.

Bogie


Thank you for sharing that about reliving a piece of past times. So in other words what youíre saying is itís probably fine?


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Old 11-19-2017, 01:24 AM
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Thank you for sharing that about reliving a piece of past times. So in other words what you’re saying is it’s probably fine?


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Fine? I have no way of knowing especially with modern low ZDDP oils, but in general solids take some attention and certainly a lot more than the hydraulics the contemporary era is used to.

I don't know your cam specs, but lifts getting into and above the half inch of lift range at the valve (so rocker ratio also counts), radical lift rates, stiff springs, heavy valves and retainers also the weight of the spring itself, and certainly RPM both too much and too little come into play with component wear and how long any adjustment will maintain itself.

My note as to RPM being too much or to little needs some explanation; certainly too much is more or less self explanatory, but too little? Yes with a competition level cam and valve train at low RPM the moments on the components while slower are longer lasting which can be a situation that provides extended time for lubrication to be squeezed out between highly loaded surfaces like the lobe to lifter interface. This is also a zone where oil pressure may be lower combined with less centrifugal force of the crank components to throw oil in the quantities needed for lubrication and cooling of this interface. You can include the ball fulcrum rockers in that as well. A caution also to be aware of is the valve springs are cooled by oil splash from the push rods. There are those who would tell you that with solids you can shut this oil flow off. What they most often don't tell you is that you need to run a full roller rocker and you need to provide a spray of oil onto the valve springs to cool them. On competition engines in the past this took the form of an add on spray bar and some external supply lines. A latter version of this idea is to build a cavity into the rocker cover that provides the oil spray onto each spring, this is still fed with external lines.

I generally just leave the factory method of oiling from the push rod on very hot street and many competition builds because these include extensive crankshaft windage controls on wet sump or are dry sump engines and either of these tend to run the upper crankcase where the cam and lifter meet pretty dry so some extra oil flowing back can be useful here especially if not using face oiling lifters/tappets.

The ball and socket rocker fulcrum will get very hot under the best of lubrication circumstances at high RPM and high lifts. Easy to see as the outside of the rocker will be burnt looking. The full roller rocker is the only ticket out of this if it is happening.

Bogie

Last edited by BogiesAnnex1; 11-19-2017 at 01:29 AM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2017, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
Fine? I have no way of knowing especially with modern low ZDDP oils, but in general solids take some attention and certainly a lot more than the hydraulics the contemporary era is used to.

I don't know your cam specs, but lifts getting into and above the half inch of lift range at the valve (so rocker ratio also counts), radical lift rates, stiff springs, heavy valves and retainers also the weight of the spring itself, and certainly RPM both too much and too little come into play with component wear and how long any adjustment will maintain itself.

My note as to RPM being too much or to little needs some explanation; certainly too much is more or less self explanatory, but too little? Yes with a competition level cam and valve train at low RPM the moments on the components while slower are longer lasting which can be a situation that provides extended time for lubrication to be squeezed out between highly loaded surfaces like the lobe to lifter interface. This is also a zone where oil pressure may be lower combined with less centrifugal force of the crank components to throw oil in the quantities needed for lubrication and cooling of this interface. You can include the ball fulcrum rockers in that as well. A caution also to be aware of is the valve springs are cooled by oil splash from the push rods. There are those who would tell you that with solids you can shut this oil flow off. What they most often don't tell you is that you need to run a full roller rocker and you need to provide a spray of oil onto the valve springs to cool them. On competition engines in the past this took the form of an add on spray bar and some external supply lines. A latter version of this idea is to build a cavity into the rocker cover that provides the oil spray onto each spring, this is still fed with external lines.

I generally just leave the factory method of oiling from the push rod on very hot street and many competition builds because these include extensive crankshaft windage controls on wet sump or are dry sump engines and either of these tend to run the upper crankcase where the cam and lifter meet pretty dry so some extra oil flowing back can be useful here especially if not using face oiling lifters/tappets.

The ball and socket rocker fulcrum will get very hot under the best of lubrication circumstances at high RPM and high lifts. Easy to see as the outside of the rocker will be burnt looking. The full roller rocker is the only ticket out of this if it is happening.

Bogie
Thank you for all your advice and your help. I'll tear the top end apart on wednesday and check for unusual wear patterns, heat discoloration, and other things that could be problems and I'll post my findings in this thread, whether theyre good or bad.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2017, 09:00 PM
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I thought what Blazer4x4 didn't really make sense either because there's millions of flat tappets cruising around on regular oil with no problems. Although I really don't have the experience to be in any position to judge. And there's no way I'm going to spend 10 bucks a quart for a daily driver if cheaper oil will do the trick.
Well, all I can say is that my flat tappet cam/valvetrain has been just fine for 4 years and yours is apparently not. I disagree with your assessment of millions of flat tappets cruising around on regular oil with no problems. Good luck using it.
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Old 11-25-2017, 06:55 PM
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Had my intake off and checked all my lifters, all had circular wear patterns but no. 8 exhaust which is pictured below had a sort of funky shaped one. I held it in the light against a straightedge and it was still convex so I'm not thinking it's a problem.
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Old 11-25-2017, 08:14 PM
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Yes that's a problem but not the source of your lash loss.

I'd check the lobe lift and if it's within a few thousandths I'd stick another lifter in there looking for a cause for the funny wear pattern. It kinda looks like a taper mismatch or something.
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Old 11-27-2017, 11:28 AM
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Yes that's a problem but not the source of your lash loss.

I'd check the lobe lift and if it's within a few thousandths I'd stick another lifter in there looking for a cause for the funny wear pattern. It kinda looks like a taper mismatch or something.
What will happen if I run it like this? I don't have the time, money, or parts to change to a new lifter, and I don't want to have to pull the intake off again because it's a huge pain to do more than once in a short time. I know it is still rotating in the bore like it should, and it is still convex.
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Old 11-27-2017, 03:18 PM
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Yes that's a problem but not the source of your lash loss.

I'd check the lobe lift and if it's within a few thousandths I'd stick another lifter in there looking for a cause for the funny wear pattern. It kinda looks like a taper mismatch or something.
Sorry for the double post, but I did some more looking and found a summit brand lifter with good reviews for about 4 bucks so I'm thinking about buying 4 or so just to have some on hand. To clarify the intake is still off of the truck and its sitting in the shop on the farm and I have until the end of next weekend to have it out of there, running or not. And I only have the weekends to work on it
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:33 PM
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Take you bad lifter to a local engine machine shop to look at in person and if needed get what you need from them. They will very likely have several to sell for $5 or so.
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Old 11-27-2017, 04:59 PM
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Take you bad lifter to a local engine machine shop to look at in person and if needed get what you need from them. They will very likely have several to sell for $5 or so.
I have to ask though what will happen if I run it like this? Just out of curiousity
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