Hot Rod Forum banner

RUST..What are the acceptable permanent ways to get rid of it?

72K views 213 replies 53 participants last post by  deadbodyman 
#1 ·
The subject pretty much says it. I know for a fact that sand blasting is oxidations end for sure, but is there any other method that will treat this problem?
 
#178 ·
hehe yeah I know, that's why I thought it's a good time to see how por15 has held up. It seems fine in theory but in practice it's so moronic. I'm so confused over what to use. From what I read I have a few problems. First, regarding por15. I actually tried the starter kit. Took me a whole day and I was lucky to be able rent a car lift for 10$/hour. So first I used a grinder with a soft metal brush to remove all loose rust and flakes under my car. Then I rinsed it with water with a hose. Let it dry for a while and sprayed with marine clean. Then rinse with water and let it dry for an hour. Then I used metal ready, let it sit for 30 minuted and again rinsed it with water. Gave it 2 hours to dry (outside on a sunny day) and finally used a brush to apply the product. Well the problem that I think all these procedures didn't remove everything that has accumulated under my car. Also, after a few weeks, I can scrape it with my fingernails. Regarding the rumor that it doesn't come off your skin, I was able to scrape it off the same day, again with my fingernails. The place where it holds the best is where it was rusty. So as I live in Montreal I decided to go to the warehouse and get another pint to cover the remaining rust. I talked to the guy who says he's been selling it for 19 years to make sure I apply it correctly. He told me that after I rinsed off the metal ready, I have to wait till it's completely dry, and that can take from 1 days to a week. If you don't have a garage or a special hot temperature room, how can you do it? I mean after a week of driving your car it's gonna get dirty underneath, so if you paint por15 it won't adhere.
In my case I'm only talking about surface rust, which I can remove with naval jelly after multiple applications. The only thing that stays are tiny pits, and I'm not sure if they're rusted or not.
So it's really confusing what to do with the rust. If I paint over it with por15, it should seal it completely and the little rust won't grow. However the problem is to make sure the rust is actually dry. How can I make sure of that if people said that there's moisture even in the air, so when you paint it, it will trap moisture under the paint. And another problem, if I'm rinsing it with water, won't it get into seems and crevices where it won't dry?
Now if I remove all the rust, should I use the epoxy primer? The only one that mixes automatically and that I can order online is on eastwood's website, 20$ a can. Now again, how do you know when the metal is dry to start spraying? People just said that the metal starts rusting right away (within seconds). If this is so, you either paint over rusted metal or over wet metal, and both are bad.
A few people here strongly suggested that you should go to the professional body shops etc. because they know better and they also don't use it.
I don't know about the States but in Montreal, Canada, it seems that all the repair services do is cover up your rust, your holes or anything. They don't do quality job, just quick fixes so you end up paying for nothing. This is what all my friends told me.
After all the information I learned, I'm inclined to use por15 instead of everything else. At least I can have some rust, sandpaper it somewhat and paint right over. This way I'm sure it's not wet (I won't have to use metal ready and rinse it off because it adheres very well to rust). I also won't need to use marine clean and to rinse it off and wait undefined amount of time till it drys, since after sandpapering the rust will already be clean. The first tiny layer of rust will be gone along with all the contaminants and dirt.
I know I wrote a lot and it's an old topic but these details don't seem obvious to me so I'm puzzled how to do it RIGHT with at least surface rust you can easily remove (and here again people have said that you can't see rust so how can you be sure you removed it if you can't see it?)
 
#179 ·
I use ospho,been using it for almost 30 yrs...even if I sand blast..check out the thread "the ospho solution" or hit search and punch in "ospho"read up on it a little and pm me, I'll walk you through it....its a lot easier and cheaper to use and costs around 15-20.00 a quart..plus it'll last ....something I swear by ...
 
#180 ·
rust??...who's got time for rust??

Randy is the only one who CORRECTLY answered the question...yep get the nibbler and the shears out or any other cutting tool you can get your hands on. After cutting the ugly out go ahead and Spot a patch in then after grinding clean and a good cleaning with a metal prep apply 2 coats of epoxy primer to both sides of the area. This serves 2 purposes, 1..it prevents moisture from creating more rust...2... it give great adhesion to your fillers. Just treat the area as you would any other repair and you should be rust free for the life of the car( only in that area...remember cancer spreads to untreated areas) Or you can just move to a high desert area and never have to deal with the stuff again!!!
 
#181 ·
Thank you. I think this is the link you're referring to http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/ospho-solution-rust-removal-175465.html?highlight=ospho+solution Actually that's what I wanted to use in the first place. So as I was searching for a rust transformer, I first wanted to use the one eastwood have, but stumbled upon por15 which had better reviews.
In your post, I saw some very light dusty surface rust (however much more rusted on the 2nd page). You removed your rust completely. I thought that ospho transforms rust. Once I applied it, should I just paint it after it dried or should I remove the rust completely and what would I do then? I wa you're using epoxy primer, something that virtually every pro recommends over products like por or rust bullet. Should I apply it once I removed all the rust? I'm wondering if I can you a can that eastwood sells on their site? Their stuff will mix itself automatically and would be really convenient for me since I never used epoxy primer and have no clue how to mix it.
You said that ospho can even protect bare metal, that's really nice, because when I used naval jelly, it did remove rust but if it rained I had rust there. Apparently naval jelly doesn't leave a protective coating.
 
#182 ·
Personally I wont buy anything from Eastwoods. In my opinion they target amitures with quality results and they charge to much for what they do have that is good ...I have bought things from them in the past thats where I get my opinion.
I use Ospho and only Ospho ,by name only ,it runs about 15.00 a qt.,its made by Skyco.
once its dry it'll hold up outside, in the weather, unprotected for weeks or in a shop for a year.but just to make sure I always reapply it after it sits for a while. You can reapply it as many times as you want...
Many times we'll strip a car and it starts rusting the next day the method of stripping dosn't matter (with the exception of soda blasting but that comes with its own limitations and problems),when I lived in Fla this was a big problem ,the ospho cured it.because when it drys it forms a barrier against moisture...
The most important thing is to sand and scuff it before applying EPOXY primer.It works with all primers including lacquer but epoxy is the best and some brands are much better than others...
Back when I started out 2ks were just coming out and we were still using lacquer primer every day...and products like "rust mort"(I dont even know if they still make that stuff) anyway,when I moved to Fla and started working at a high end bodyshop that did a ton of restorations the owner gave me a bottle and showed me how he wanted it applied after every car I stripped...At the time I thought it was a total waste of time (I had been doing this for 10yrs,I was a pro and I already knew everything about everything ....I was young) ....,you even had to wait a day or two for it to completely dry. but it was his shop so I listened and kept my mouth shut...That was about 25yrs ago and the basic technique I use for applying it hasn't changed very much...I've never had a problem with adhesion and I see cars that I did 25 yrs ago, still....My friend in Fla still has his 69 camero I restored with the same paint and every time I see it I cant believe how good it looks, still.Of coarse its his baby and he takes very good care of it with the exception of its weekend trips to the drag strip...I go to Fla once or twice every year and always stop by to see it.so if someone says you'll have adhesion problems their wrong and have used it improperly.Or simply never even used it....That was the whole point of making the video and the "solution" thread....although unfinished....

As for heavy rust it still works great at getting rid of it.heavily pitted or not BUT..its a lot of work and when you have pits the metal thin and weak (its almost gone and there's no way to get it back unless you replace it ...
HOWEVER,on places like a roof or trim holes for body side trim that dont have much structural strength it'll work very well at saving whats left and keep it from coming back...its not as good as cutting off your roof and replacing it but it will hold up,especially for a hard to find roof or a vinyl top that has rusted but still can be saved....

I had a severely rusted roof on my 48 ,pits,holes ,the works..It really needed to be replaced but I couldn't find a biz coupe roof that anyone would part with without buying the whole car so I repaired mine after looking around for a year....I did the same with the 1/4s ...I repaired them.
when I did my 1/4s ,after treating them and epoxying I went on the inside and used panel weld adhesive to glue strips of metal for strength,I was going to do the same for the roof (put new metal on the inside) but after filling the pits and dents it seamed strong enough so I never did get around to it...heres a couple pics of the roof and 1/4s keep in mind this car was rotted from head to toe only someone like me would ever concider fixing this.but its been fun and it got me the unusual nickname...
BTW The first pics that looks like a meteorite is the roof after epoxy ,sorry no pics of it before but the light brown spots are the drop light inside shining through the holes .....Sorry for the long drawn out post but when it come to rust there is no quick or single answer....Thats probably why these threads go on and on and never die...Rust never sleeps........Ospho works but get a bottle and practice with it first.....Mike O.
 
#184 ·
Heres the 1/4 showing the backer on the inside..The roof has been ddone for 2-3 yrs and the 1/4 around 4-5yrs ...I mostly keep it outside....Its only in primer and have no plans to paint in the near future ,I want to drive it first.... :D
 

Attachments

#185 ·
I'll try to buy some ospho today, unfortunately couldn't find it on ebay, maybe napa auto parts will have it. With regards to epoxy, which brand would you recommend? Hopefully they have it in Canada, as it is sometimes hard to come by many good products here.
You mentioned I should sand the surface before applying epoxy. If I understood correctly, after applying oshpo the rust will become black solid surface. Do I just sand it lightly or do I send off everything to get to bare metal?
You also mentioned rust mort, I looked it up and it seems to be the same thing as opsho, am I correct. At least I found this stuff online 27$/quart+10$ shipping to Canada (still much cheaper than por15)
I really enjoyed your pictures, let's see if I can match your results, probably not, hehe! Must feel great when you finally drive the car!
 
#186 · (Edited)
Rust mort is not even close to the same for an end result...it might sound the same as with many other rust cure products ,dont be fooled by misleading advertising...I ONLY use ospho,nothing else.... there are some videos in that thread that show how its applied and sanded it doesnt turn black like an encapsulator it is actually a grayish transperent primer when dry so like all primers or other coatings they need sanding and scuffing before applying anything else.sanding also tells you if its completly dry it'll ball up on the sand paper if its not ready.
I had a few guys tell me it was tough to get in the "Great White" ...Here ,its available at any autobody supply store or even sherman williams paint stores but they (SW) only sell it by the gallon 45.00 and even I would take a long time to use all that ....1 qt is usually good for 3-6 cars ...just do a google search on ospho and you'll see all the distributors and their locations...most any epoxy will do for you but I'm very parcial to SPI epoxy and clear....I really wont use anything else any more....Because when I find an exellant product at a fair price I' stick with it and someone will have to GIVE me something for free thats even better before I'll change...Ospho is about the only product I've never changed once I found it.same with SPI epoxy and clear then Z-grip bondo and ez sand finishing putty along with fandeli sand paper these are just what I found work best for me ,not everyone feels the same and everyone is partial to their own brands.....Feel free to Pm me if your having trouble getting it locally I can give you skyco's e-mail address.They'll get right back within 24 hrs.....if you get a bottle you can pm me and I'll give complete detailed instructions on how to use it properly without any trouble its not that hard once you know the system your resu;lts will be exactly like mine maybe better ....I also use it as a metal prep for unrusted metal it cleans and etches very well....
 
#187 ·
I think of all the stores listed on ospho's website, Sherwin Williams seems to be the only one in my city. I'll check it in a couple of days if they have it. I went to Napa autoparts today and asked for ospho. They had no clue what it was so I asked for an epoxy. The guy said that it is two parts and I shouldn't use it because when I get the activator, the other part will be already dry and they didn't have it anyway. He told me that epoxy is just a name and I can get something else in a spray can and it's the same thing. So I bought DuPont Etch Primer A-4115S 1K Self-Etching Primer. Do you know if it's any good? It better be, was pretty expensive! (30$ for one spraycan) If not I guess I can return it...Will be trying to locate ospho next week.
 
#188 ·
If the Napa guy told you epoxy is just a name of a product and sold you the etching primer in its place...RUN. I would never ask that guy if the sky is blue... Google the word epoxy and then Google epoxy primer. Epoxy is two parts...that are mixed together, not applied separately. Epoxy is a TYPE of primer, (two part). That would be like saying toilet tissue is a name, when in reality it is a product....Kleenex would be a Name,(brand), of tissue.
 
#189 ·
That Napa man should be shot!!!! I'm surprised he didny try to sell you glue (he most likely sniffed it all) You should return that rip off can of green liquid its not even a good etch primer I laugh every time I walk by that stuff...
Never buy primer or paint in a arisol can...I wouldnt buy anything from there again...

Epoxy primer is a two part system . usuually its 1:1 you mix equal parts let it sit for a few minutes then stir it again then spray ...it wont get hard until both parts are used ( like epoxy glue) .... business must be slow up there for napa use such misleading practices. OR maybe the guy is just an idiot...
 
#190 ·
Hwyhogg said:
If the Napa guy told you epoxy is just a name of a product and sold you the etching primer in its place...RUN. I would never ask that guy if the sky is blue... Google the word epoxy and then Google epoxy primer. Epoxy is two parts...that are mixed together, not applied separately. Epoxy is a TYPE of primer, (two part). That would be like saying toilet tissue is a name, when in reality it is a product....Kleenex would be a Name,(brand), of tissue.
And would like trying to wipe your butt with confetti... :drunk: :nono:
 
#191 ·
Hwyhogg said:
If the Napa guy told you epoxy is just a name of a product and sold you the etching primer in its place...RUN. I would never ask that guy if the sky is blue... Google the word epoxy and then Google epoxy primer. Epoxy is two parts...that are mixed together, not applied separately. Epoxy is a TYPE of primer, (two part). That would be like saying toilet tissue is a name, when in reality it is a product....Kleenex would be a Name,(brand), of tissue.
II searched a long time ego, when I first heard the word but it didn't make much sense to me:
Epoxy or polyepoxide is a thermosetting polymer formed from reaction of an epoxide "resin" with polyamine "hardener". Epoxy has a wide range of applications, including fiber-reinforced plastic materials and general purpose adhesives.
Now epoxy primer:
Epoxy primer/sealer is a non-porous finish that is typically recommended as the first basecoat over bare steel. Various epoxy primers can also be applied over fiberglass, plastic, or the black iron phosphate coating that remains after "converting" rust.
So I'm still not sure what is it exactly? Are these two things in cans, you spray one over another? Are they in bottles, you mix them and paint with a brush (probably not haha) or do you need to mix them and use a paint gun (which I don't have and I think they're expensive). In what containers are they even sold, what are they like, powder, liquid, paste etc?
In any case since the stuff I bought is no good (I'm really disappointed I thought it was a quality product) I'm gonna return it and get something else. I wonder if this is any good?
Rubber seal RS-587 epoxy primer
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/solvent-resistant-real-2k-epoxy-aerosol-can-143345.html
The only problem will be finding where to buy it...After I looked around it seems that epoxy primer needs to be used with a gun and I'd be happy to find something I could use with a spray can
 
#192 ·
Epoxy that comes in spray cans is not worth a darn. Forget that idea.
Also, "conversion" of rust is a myth. There will still be rust. Get rid of the rust and work with clean metal. Also forget the Ospho. Prep the clean metal with 80 grit D/A scratches, use a waterborne wax and grease remover, and spray 2 coats of a high-quality epoxy on the metal. Ospho on clean bare metal is a waste of time and can be detrimental. Use Ospho on your outdoor furniture but use quality automotive products on your car body. For automotive use, epoxy has the best adhesion to properly prepped metal bar none.
 
#193 ·
epoxy is glue......................
mixed with different resins and fillers it is the very best foundation to work on.
you are advised to epoxy first, you are advised to epoxy last before color .... why sandwich anything in between. i just epoxy and block until i'm ready to paint .

BUT all epoxies are not the same . most can not be sanded . i use one that blocks really well and sands as good as any polyurethane out there.
 
#194 ·
roger1 said:
Also, "conversion" of rust is a myth. There will still be rust. Get rid of the rust and work with clean metal. Also forget the Ospho. Prep the clean metal with 80 grit D/A scratches, use a waterborne wax and grease remover, and spray 2 coats of a high-quality epoxy on the metal. Ospho on clean bare metal is a waste of time and can be detrimental. Use Ospho on your outdoor furniture but use quality automotive products on your car body. For automotive use, epoxy has the best adhesion to properly prepped metal bar none.
Come on, you just can't throw decades of someone's experience out of the window. It's not like he used it yesterday and thinks it worked. He actually saw those cars years and years later, thus the results are well documented. I think this merits to be tried at least...

shine
Thanks for the explanation!:)) So looks like I absolutely need to buy a painting gun as they is no other way to apply good quality epoxy primer?
 
#195 ·
The problem with this thread is, after 13 pages, it doesn't do anything for the backyard builder. People don't want miracles, they just want their jalopy not to rust while they work on it. But not everyone can afford what people are pushing here. Doing it "the right way" costs a lot of money for people just starting out. Sure, a good can of epoxy primer isn't that expensive, but getting to where you can spray it is. Paint booth, spray guns, ventilation, filters, PPE gear, and so on, all that stuff adds up to a big chunk of change.
 
#196 ·
sorry but there is no way to do it "free" . i don't do what i cant afford, simple as that. good epoxy can be brushed or rolled. if 150 for epoxy is out of your reach so is building a hotrod.

phosphoric acid can be used to remove rust but it must be completely neutralized before epoxy.
 
#197 ·
roger1 said:
Epoxy that comes in spray cans is not worth a darn. Forget that idea.
Also, "conversion" of rust is a myth. There will still be rust. Get rid of the rust and work with clean metal. Also forget the Ospho. Prep the clean metal with 80 grit D/A scratches, use a waterborne wax and grease remover, and spray 2 coats of a high-quality epoxy on the metal. Ospho on clean bare metal is a waste of time and can be detrimental. Use Ospho on your outdoor furniture but use quality automotive products on your car body. For automotive use, epoxy has the best adhesion to properly prepped metal bar none.
obviously someone that never used it....its more like navel jelly with a hemi....I've only found three good ways to REMOVE rust (not convert it) ...

The best and easiest way is with an electrolytic solution and electricity (reverse electro plating) its simple and safe if done right.But whatever you want to derust has to be totally imersed in the solution...So something like a car will require a swimming pool size tank....separate pieces like doors and fenders are a lot easier...This process is so good that even screws and bolts that were rusted solid will easily come out afterwards....

my second choice would be ospho and a wire wheel with multiple applications for the heavy stuff...the rust dissolves away and it gets better and better each time....NOTHING cleans like acid... nothing.....thats why they use it at the plating shops (chrome) so yes ,it does a great job of cleaning unrusted metal and etching it for primers it makes ALL primers stick better.
Keep in mind I'm only talking about using Ospho ....its not the same as phosphoric acid but that IS what makes it work.its like calling etch primer acid ,its just not the same....OSPHO DOES "NOT" NEED TO BE NEAUTRALIZED...

Media blasting is another way to get rid of of rust but it has to many drawbacks to be of much use on cars for newbies unless it shipped to a pro that will guarantee no warpage....Still... your taking a chance...Personally I want to do every step myself....
blasting will take off good metal with the rust ...its very messy and cant be done unless every piece is removed. so you cant blast a car that's still able to move in and out of the shop just total restos...Then you have the expense of the equipment ,special place to do it that wont get sand over every square inch of the shop or garage. then after its done you still have to prime it right away because it'll start rusting that day.I defiantly wouldn't trust a blasting company to prep and prime my car....I have shipped a few cars out for blasting and they did a good job but it cost about 1,200.00 .....and I still used the ospho to protect it ....
I found the most economical ,easiest and fastest way to get started on a project is to chemical strip with aircraft stripper (50.00a gallon) and treat the bare metal with ospho (15.00 a qt) whether its rusted or not then epoxy prime ...I also dont have much use for any other primers or sealers any more....This is how I've done it for the past 25 yrs and how and why I do it on all the cars I strip and restore at my shop,There are no exceptions...

there is no "permanent" way to remove or stop rust you can only slow down the process....Metal is man made and rust is natural....

Its not nice to fool mother nature...
 
#198 ·
shine said:
sorry but there is no way to do it "free" . i don't do what i cant afford, simple as that. good epoxy can be brushed or rolled. if 150 for epoxy is out of your reach so is building a hotrod.

phosphoric acid can be used to remove rust but it must be completely neutralized before epoxy.
I really have to agree with Shine here...if you MUST skimp dont do it at this stage....its too important....skimp on ANYTHING else.after epoxy...but not this.After all ,everything else is cosmetic,without a good foundation it doesn't matter how pretty it is ,it wont last so your wasting your time....
Its like using old bearings on a new crankshaft....
 
#199 ·
CMR said:
The problem with this thread is, after 13 pages, it doesn't do anything for the backyard builder. People don't want miracles, they just want their jalopy not to rust while they work on it. But not everyone can afford what people are pushing here. Doing it "the right way" costs a lot of money for people just starting out. Sure, a good can of epoxy primer isn't that expensive, but getting to where you can spray it is. Paint booth, spray guns, ventilation, filters, PPE gear, and so on, all that stuff adds up to a big chunk of change.
CMR ,Your are exactly the kind of enthusiest I'm posting for...and my sole reason for joining HR.I've been in this biz for 35 yrs and know some pretty good ways to save a buck some that other old timers showed me and some I figured out on my own but trust me there are some things that you just CANT skimp on.
EPOXY PRIMER and metal prep are very important.
There are some pretty good ways to get around the expense of just about everything else.(like homemade paint booths).I was once in your shoes and have tried many ways do do things ,not all have worked so I can help you guys avoid making the same mistakes and help you along with the things that have worked ,how well and what works best....money is to valuable to waste ,so everything I use is the best bang for the buck...
Stripping and preping metal is not that hard ,any one can do a proper job that will last without a lot of experience...you can skimp on everything else because most guys arent pros and cant do the same quality work with bondo and paint so skimp there ,it doesn't make sense to me to have a newbie spend thousands of dollars on the best materials and end up with a so so quality job....It takes years to achieve the level of talent pros have ,you simply cant get there without time, and a good teacher can only get you so far.So buy a cheaper paint and clear and other materials where the lack of experience wont matter....theres some very good deals out there on paint and materials to do the whole job for under 500.00 but thats about as cheap as you want to go and still get a decent job that lasts ....
The metal work is about the least expensive part to get right as far as materials goes so dont skimp on it...
 
#200 ·
ok - so I've read everything there is on rust removal - including every posts in this thread - and think I understand the pro's and cons...but there is one thing I don't get....

Rust needs a few things to "grow" - i.e. continue the rusting process .. iron + oxygen + water ..

so if i wire brush off the rust surface so i am left with pitted bright metal - with admittedly rust down in the pits - but no holes or very thin metal - but then epoxy both sides therefore creating a barrier to oxygen and water - won't the rust just stop at this point ?

then fill - then epoxy again - so even if the filler absorbs some moisture it is sandwiched between two epoxy layers - am I not good.

(now this is for a daily driver resto - not a show winning car )

- Stephen
 
#201 ·
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top