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Old 02-08-2020, 10:43 AM
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Safety question for the nitrous people here,

What would the nitrous people here suggest is a must for safety or a good idea for nitrous, RPM Window switches? Fuel pressure safety switch? Progressive nitrous controller? and what ever else comes to mind

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Old 02-08-2020, 04:45 PM
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What type of safety are you referring to??

Keeping engine safe when not using the nitrous at all, like main shut off valves?

Safety as in keeping the engine from self destruction due to system malfunction??
Preventing trigger at too low an RPM??
Preventing system from lean-out on the fuel side??
Preventing system from triggering if one solenoid goes bad??

Safety as in triggering it on and off at correct times or only on demand??
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Old 02-08-2020, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
What type of safety are you referring to??

Keeping engine safe when not using the nitrous at all, like main shut off valves?

Safety as in keeping the engine from self destruction due to system malfunction??
Preventing trigger at too low an RPM??
Preventing system from lean-out on the fuel side??
Preventing system from triggering if one solenoid goes bad??

Safety as in triggering it on and off at correct times or only on demand??
I'm asking a question that is taking advantage of people here who are running nitrous, to give me their opinion on what safety systems they think is necessary. As in I'm trying to find out what others opinions are on this. I'm concerned about everything but someone who uses Nitrous can help clear up what my real concerns should be.
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Old 02-08-2020, 07:17 PM
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I've run it on several vehicles, at several power levels, street and strip enough to run 70+ bottles out....Help friends with it too. Up to the 250-300 HP level

What exactly do you want to know.....you're asking such an open ended question it would take pages to list every little contingency that could apply.

Lest start with what power level, street only or strip too, and do you want a manual trigger (microswitch on carb or finger button only) control, or to run it through a timer and/or progressive controller.

Safety as in traction control??, ...or preventing nitrous bleed leakage into a not running engine,..... or to prevent activation if fuel pressure is not there??
Safety as in ignition timing control to keep from hurting the engine??

fuel quality, fuel type??

System jetting and pressure requirements??

You're going to have to be a little more specific about what you want to know.....or at least give some background on what parts you have, both internal engine and nitrous system, what you are trying to do, what power level you are looking for.

There are more than a few ways to skin the cat on this....
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Old 02-08-2020, 09:54 PM
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Nova we aren't meshing here.. Its like taking medicine I can take 20 pills that all have effect on what ever I have or I can have a doctor who knows about it pick out the one pill that covers enough of the existing problem to make it the choice. I know that everything you are pointing out can effect the safety of nitrous. What do you choose as a option for 150 hp level. My system is up to 250hp but lets just talk about 150 now. I'll be running 100 octain. Setting it up for the strip is not my interest at this point. The jetting requirement for the nitrous is graphed out by Nitrous express. They engine is built for a 200 shot. I've been running at 6 degrees retarded Just to check. Runs fine. Nitrous bleed leakage I know nothing about. It has a button set up right now for the nitrous. I have a Fuel pressure gauge. My thoughts are that the Fuel pump won't be a problem so the the fuel pressure safety switch is at the bottom of my list. The progressive system Isn't my top concern at 150 shot. Systems that cost over 150.00 are a push for me.. The RPM window switch is on the top of my list because I'm concerned about having the button on at the wrong time , To low or to high.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:51 PM
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Okay, that helps clear things up a bunch.

The rpm window switch still needs to be wired through an activation switch, as you don't want it to stay on at high rpm but still in the rpm window but you've lifted you foot off the gas....so a carb mounted microswitch covers that.
If you want the window switch to start the system, it can be wired so that the WOT microswitch on the carb enables the circuit, and a master arming toggle switch prevents it from coming on when going to WOT when you don't want to use the system.

For a small system, single shot type like you've got, I prefer the manual pushbutton on the shifter or steering wheel, doubled up with the WOT microswitch on the carb so it won't activate in non WOT situations and immediately shut off If I lift off the gas even if I don't get my finger of the button in the vehicle.
As far as the window switch, it is nice for the low rpm safety, but unnecessary for the high rpm side unless you can't manage to lift your foot and finger at roughly the same time at the end of a run. I guess you could use it to prevent the nitrous staying on if you exceed your target engine peak rpm to shut the system down before the ignition hits a rev limiter if you have one, as nitrous on the rev limiter can really hurt engine parts.

The pressure switch in the fuel side, to prevent activation when pressure is to low, has mostly been tossed aside as they proved to be problematic, often tending to make the system "stutter" on and off rapidly, so most don't use them.
Most just make sure the fuel system is good, maybe a pressure gauge on the cowl or inside with an isolator, and set up the system pressure regulator with the fuel being flowed into a catch can with the same or slightly bigger fuel jet size that you plan to shoot.
Doing the pressure setting with it flowing the fuel is key here, very important.

At 6 timing pulled for 150 HP shot, that is the general beginning recommendation but you'll also see it amended to 2 per 50 hp, ignoring the first 50 hp, for an actual just 4 pulled for a 150 shot....but you'll have to test carefully and read plugs if you experiment here.

What I meant about leakage is leaving the bottle valve on at any time when you don't plan to be using the nitrous, like sitting for an hour or overnight....if the solenoid leaks it will slowly fill the intake tract with nitrous and this will often result in a big boom as soon as you try to start the car...bending carb shaft, burning booster rings off in the carb, cracking or splitting intake runners.
Best practice here is just leave the line shut off until just before you plan to use it, and turn it back off just as soon as is convenient after using it. Either bottle valve or inline 1/4 turn valve.

If you've got an older system, most all manufacturers have greatly revised their calibrations from what used to be the old norm of fuel jet bigger than the nitrous jet and running the system rich....this has proven to be more damaging than being to the leaner side, now nearly all calibrations are fuel side jet SMALLER than the nitrous jet, at least on lower pressure carb wet systems.
I believe Nitrous Express already has you covered on this, I don't believe they ever had the old NOS/Nitrous Works/10,000 RPM type calibrations.

About the only reason for a progressive controller is to lessen the onset of power, and control how fast the power builds and/or also control a dual or multiple stage system.for a traction limited car.

A purge solenoid set-up is nice for clearing the line when you turn the bottle on, rather than "banging" it through the motor with the button activation switch for the whole system.
Also for getting bottle pressure to the correct point if you are using aggressively lean settings for make power at each jetting level.

If you're not using a nitrous side pressure gauge you can see from the driver seat, it would be a good addition, along with the purge solenoid kit.

A automatic ignition timing retard is also nice if you run the car both WOT naturally aspirated a lot with no nitrous on, rather than just manually setting the distributor back retarded every time you get ready to run the nitrous. Retard gets triggered at the same instant the system is fired.

Any questions just ask if I didn't cover what you were looking for, I'll try to help.

If you're not using a nitrous side pressure gauge you can see from the driver seat, it would be a good addition, along with the purge solenoid kit.
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:16 PM
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I have a fuel pressure gauge in front of me and a nitrous pressure gauge on the tank just to my right side. The tank is behind and in between the front seats. The Gauge is sticking just past the front seal/ What you wrote is what I wanted to see. I generally don't share this but I'm very dyslexic so my mind see things differently then other. writing is the worst problem. It usually take a family member to translate what I write. But your getting it raw. I appreciate you crawling through it to help Thank you.
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Old 02-08-2020, 11:26 PM
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Sure, anytime.

I've got an Uncle who is dyslexic, so I know of some of the struggle you face.

Any other questions, just ask away .
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Old 02-09-2020, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
Best practice here is just leave the line shut off until just before you plan to use it

A automatic ignition timing retard is also nice if you run the car both WOT naturally aspirated a lot with no nitrous on, rather than just manually setting the distributor back retarded every time you get ready to run the nitrous. Retard gets triggered at the same instant the system is fired.
Sorry for the thred hyjack

First point, automatic bottle opener/closer any good?

Automatic timing retard ... any suggestions on what's out there?

Thanks

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Old 02-09-2020, 06:41 AM
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I've never tried the electric remote bottle opener/closer, so I can't say to how well it works.

Timing retards all require some sort of ignition box, such as MSD, FAST, Daytona Sensors, Mallory and are either add-on boxes to those systems or built in depending on the model. There may be some fuel injection ECU's that also do ignition that will also do a retard feature, I'm not familiar with electronic fuel injection enough to know.

Simple stock distributor ignitions like HEI or Duraspark, I don't know of anyone making just a retard box for those.

I've dealt with MSD and the now discontinued Holley Annihilator ignitions for the timing retards I've used.

MSD at one time offered a retard for stock type ignitions, but I haven't seen one in years.
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Old 02-09-2020, 06:48 AM
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I'll toss in my two cents. First off, if your system hasn't been flowed and jet mapped, GET IT DONE....This alone can save you from possibly melting down your stuff. If you bought a kit from one of the manufacturers, IT HAS NOT BEEN FLOWED AND JET MAPPED! All the factory tunes are usually pig rich from the start, and that is as bad if not worse than going lean!!!! Steve Johnson at Induction Solutions or Robert Lane at Fast Lane Nitrous can do this for you. It's money well spent, and they will set the system up for YOUR combo....and includes timing settings, fuel pressure for the nitrous side at each hp level, etc.....

Next, you MUST run a dedicated fuel pressure regulator with the nitrous system. Depending on your base fuel system, you may need a stand alone setup for the nitrous. What fuel pump are you running?

As far as activation goes, the one part that is NOT an option is a WOT, or wide open throttle switch. You DO NOT want the nitrous to come on at any time below wide open throttle.

How you turn the system on is going to depend on what you want to do...at the very simplest, a button you push can activate the system. You can also use an rpm switch to turn it on above a certain rpm, and that is wired through the wot switch as well. If you have a delay box that has throttle stop timers in it, you can use those to activate it, that's what I have setup on my stuff. I can control when and for how long the system is on with that. You can also have it activated with a progressive controller. This is a very popular way to do it and lets you ramp in the nitrous instead of getting it all at once. The advantage to this is that you can manage the power level easier, and many times a car is much faster when doing this. It does take some time to figure it out though, it's not an out of the box deal......

One thing to remember about it though, is your system needs to be set up so that it DOES NOT ACTIVATE on the starting line, only AFTER the car begins to move. If you are running a trans brake, the system needs to be set up so that it doesn't come on until after the brake releases....this is important!!!

You should have a purge valve near the plate/fogger solenoid as well, so you can purge vapor from the lines before you make a run. This will improve performance somewhat. Not completely necessary but not bad to have.

Timing.....lets talk about that. Eric already mentioned some things on this so I'll add to it. You need some sort of timing control that keeps the engine at it's normal timing setting when you're not using nitrous, and then automatically retards the timing when you turn it on. YOU MUST RETARD THE TIMING when using nitrous or you'll kill your engine very quickly!!! When using a timing retard device, it's best with a distributor that is locked out. A crank trigger is the best setup to use, but not 100% required. You'll also have to correctly phase your distributor to ensure that you don't have a crossfire condition inside the cap when the retard is active.

As far as bottle openers are concerned, I'm not a fan. On my stuff, I have the bottle mounted on the car, a 90* shutoff valve next to me, then on to the engine. After a pass, you should shut off the bottle and purge the nitrous out of the lines. This is where the purge valve comes in the most. DO NOT LEAVE THE BOTTLE VALVE OPEN IF YOU'RE NOT MAKING A PASS!!!! Any leakage at all can be an issue. If your system leaks nitrous into the engine when it's off, you have to crank the engine over several times with the ignition OFF or you can backfire through the intake with enough force to break or severely damage things, and also potentially cause a fire.

On my stuff, I run the MSD Grid ignition, and it's got timing retards built in that, when signaled, retard the timing to whatever I have it set for. It's super easy and works well. There are other ways to do it, but MSD has many options available depending on which ignition you have....They are pretty much the standard to use.

Last thing, is you'll need to learn how to read your plugs if you don't now. They will tell you what you need to do with your tuning, such as fuel, spark advance, etc. Also, you'll need many sets....to tune properly you need to make a full throttle hit, shut it off, then read the plugs. If you drive around at all you won't be able to read them...

Things to remember:

-Rich is bad, lean is bad, but too rich is worse than too lean....
-Timing must be retarded when on the bottle. The rule of thumb of 2 degrees per 50 hp is ok, but actual timing will depend on the engine itself.
-fuel quality and octane are critical....choose wisely. Engine combo will dictate.
-camshaft profile will also dictate how much you can effectively spray. More exhaust duration and more lobe separation are required with nitrous. You have to get the heat out of the engine or bad things happen.
-Bottle pressure. This is KEY!!! For best performance, you should swap out bottles every pass. Bottle pressure should be between 900-950 psi. DO NOT USE A TORCH TO HEAT THE BOTTLES! Use a water bath warmer (best way) or warming blanket....When you make a pass on a new bottle, you'll use some of the nitrous...it gets harder to get the pressure up when nitrous is used up, and the pressure drops off faster when there is less in the bottle. To be as consistent as possible, you need to have enough bottles to make a full day of racing, using one bottle per pass. Even if you are only spraying a small hit, the same rules apply. As bottle volume and pressure drop off, your tune up will change as well. I have 8 bottles that I carry and have the ability to transfer between bottles to make sure I always have a full one ready.
-Nice to have but not needed is a scale. Weigh the bottle after each run to determine how much nitrous you used. This helps in consistency as well.

Lot to think about.....please feel free to ask me any questions you may have
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Old 02-09-2020, 07:14 AM
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Agree with your recommendations Eric, I've also used Sub Zero on the 1320 (and street) on numerous vehicles (and Motorcycles). Although I've never been a lover of Micro Switches (touchy little sob's) I have used them with the Shifter button. The main thing (as you pointed out) is to not be spraying unless your WOT. Have also used the Pressure switches and agree they can be troublematic

For that reason the last 3 or 4 systems I've used incorporated Digital Progressive Controllers and I stick with proven products. What I love about a progressive controller is you can program it to do basically anything you want and all you have to worry about is WOT and keeping it off the wall, LOL....

On my last big N20 system I went with NX everything and the Maximiser Controller along with a very heavy duty gas pedal operated on switch
(of course you still have a master kill switch to Arm the system)
The Controller allows you some amazing adjustability

Example of how I ran it

NX Maximiser Settings

100HP Jets (math based on a 10.0 run)

Delay .5 Sec
Build Time 1.5 Sec
Start Power 50%
Final Power 100%
Retard "ON" and set at 20%
Reset Options Start (resets to initial Start Power setting when throttle switch is cycled on/off)
N20 Delay Off
Stage 2 Power 40% (% of power change when the Stage 2 Timer activates)
Stage 2 Timer 6.0 Sec (6 seconds into the run it goes to 40% power)

WOT = NO n20 for the first 0.5 second
Starts at 50HP at 0.5 second, then builds from 50HP to 100HP over the next 1.5 seconds
Stays at 100HP for 4 seconds
Drops to 40HP 6 seconds after initial WOT

If you were running a computer controlled efi set up as you see with the controller you can retard timing and it has an auto reset feature if you have to get out of it and then back in it.

Not bad results for a 5000 lb truck
[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07EAS7yCWQg/YOUTUBE]
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Old 02-09-2020, 07:17 AM
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Seeing the settings on a progressive switch makes my head hurt.....hahahahahha
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Old 02-09-2020, 10:52 AM
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Thanks everyone. , The fuel pump for the 2 1/2 Gallon fuel cell is a Carter P4594(when running nitrous). The fuel pump for the main tank is Carter mechanical
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