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Old 11-01-2017, 03:45 AM
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Hi All and sorry for typos, copy/paste does not work well between MS Word and this forum.

Ericnova72, I like the idea of BB power also (no first hand experience), and when I’m old or rich I might want to get the legendary 65-67 Chevelle with a big block. Then I can play with it anyway I like (stroke 496).
But now the only way is Small block for my Camaro. In here you can up the cubes by 20% compared to what your car has already in it. Mine is registered as small block 350 so I can legally only go up to 420 cubes, and not change to BB. But if I stroke SB to 427 no one can see the internals. You can go for big block but then all (brakes,wheels, driveshaft, suspension etc) has to match the stuff that were in a big block car from the factory in the 1970’s.

64nailhead, sure there is shipping and import charges but let’s just use US dollars for simplicity.
I will stay withmy small block setup, build this more powerful SB and use all aftermarket stuffdesigned for SB blocks and not go through hell to convert my car first to factory BB. I think that you all agree that this is enough Off topic. Please let’snot continue BB/turbo discussions on this thread. Small block discussion andadvice needed.


This is the part list at the moment and I have here roughly the prices in US


4100$ - CNC Motorsports Dart SHP block with all forged 427 strokerassembly with 4.125 bore to keep the wall thickness. Internally Balanced


2500$ - Heads AFR 235cc (up to 0.700 lift). Flow @.650 int/exh = 330/251cfm. Even @ .500 they flow 305/235. Titanium retainers and stiffer springs, 7/16stud, Combustion chamber 64-70cc depending on piston selection to make ~11:1 CR


300$ish - Custom grind Hydraulic roller, duration maybe int/exh 250/260


450$ Rockers 1.7 or 1.6 or mix&match -> lift .660-0.680 int / .650 exh


300$ - Pushrods etc


500$ - Hyd.Lifters


300$ - Super Vic or Strip Dominator, single plane


700$ - Carb Quick Fuel Tech 950


500$ - 1 3/4 headers


400$ - Distributorless inginition for example MSD to save a couple of HP


300$ - Moroso Oil pan


200$ - valve covers


Total somewhere 10 550 $ for main parts, < 12k$. Leaves 1 450 $ for timing chain and cover, gaskets, oilpickup, carb spacer, bolts, nuts etc. smaller stuff.

Do we all agree on the parts list for the engine only?



Simply put the 427cubes - AFR 235’s – Single plane - QFT 950 should work well together


Already have these parts so these costs are not included in the engine cost: Transmission I have 2004r and will stay with that for sure. Additional beef up of the tranny~1500€. Converter has to be upgraded to around 4-5000rpm for another 800€ or so. Rear diff. already 4.11:1, no higher. Electrical Fuel pump and other aux systems such as starters, alternators, cooler and so on already have.


Deeper into the issues:


DART NOTE : “ The lifter bosses in SHP blocks are .220"taller than the bosses in early-style blocks that were not designed forhydraulic roller lifters. If you are installing aftermarket lifters with linkbars in an SHP block, the lifters must be designed for use in 1987-up or BowTie blocks ”



What about this discussion about small circle cams, is this a limiting factor and how to get rid of it? Taller deck block? Does that create additional challenges or cost? Is this a problem with Dart SHP block?
  • Are there known problems for lifters/pushrods/any valve train related such as the above mentioned lifter issue?
  • Please recommend an exact cam with ~1.7/1.6 ratio with degrees and lifts. Manufacturer and part# appreciated.
I wonder if this is undoable, or too expensive since no one seem to have built this type of engine. I suppose that makes me want to build one even more. Isn’t the whole point of building your own combo to make it what you want and perhaps make it better than the next guy At least it is your own blend of components.

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Old 11-01-2017, 05:08 AM
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Can you recommend some of these of-the-shelf cams with those specs?


Dunig


Quote:
Originally Posted by engineczar View Post
A 427 with Dart Pro 1 230's will get you there if you can find a HR camshaft big enough.

Most off the shelf HR's stop at .630ish lift and [email protected] duration which will leave you about 15-20hp short of 600hp. If you can get one ground to .660 or so lift and [email protected] duration then you're in the ballpark.
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Old 11-01-2017, 05:50 AM
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I'm in for watching you hit your goal.

What lifter are you planning to run with the AFR assembled head's springs? Seems like ALOT of pressure for a hydro lifter at 7K. Did either AFR or CNC Motorsports recommend a lifter?
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:24 AM
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Hi,

I do not know which exact lifter to use. All engine shops only list that they use "hydraulic roller lifters". Do you have any recommendations, or at least point out things that need to be considered?

I have asked Dart themselves for engine specs but no response yet. I also have talked to AFR but not in detail as such. I will ask for their opinion when the time comes.

I do however have personal a response from Enginefactory and they spec'd a combo and promised to make over 600hp:

Dart SHP with Eagle 427 assy, Dart Pro 1 227cc 23degree heads, Dart Single plane, Comp cams Hydraulic roller 246/252 with lift 586/581 and use 1.6 ratio rockers on both int/exh (.625/.620). Quick Fuel 850cfm carb, MSD 6AL, and they ask 14.450$. That is expensive and I do not buy the idea that this combo would get me there.

I have played around now with Desktop Dyno 2000 for a couple of hours. I used it also on my last build with very accurate results. Actually my 355 made 5hp less than calculated but gained +20ftlbs over the programs numbers. So I believe that Desktop Dyno can be used for checking effects between different part combinations considering ~5% accuracy...

Notes:

- Basic info= Roller cam, CR 11.06 : 1, headers DO have mufflers
- 950 carb seems to be good. 850cfm lost 10hp but 1050 carb netted only couple, no need for wasting gas
- No need for more lift than .630 both int/exh. Literally more lift has no effect other than +-1hp/tq or move figures couple rpm earlier/later. Less lift would drop power a lot
- 110 lobe separation and 106 int.CL seem to be the best combo. If figures are smaller, the torque goes up and comes in earlier, but engine is no more able to go past 600 mark. If adding to these figures the power range just goes further in the rpm range making max power after 7000rpm = not desired
- Cam duration 250/256 is the best of both worlds. More duration is better for max power but power would go past 7krpm and early torque would drop dramatically. Torque wise 240 int would be best but then combo does not make more than couple hp past 600 and given the accuracy of program it is most likely that the end result would be somewhere 580-590 in real life. The trade of between intake side 240 and 250 cams is +20TQ / -20 HP. Therefore max duration 250/256 will be the best bet in exceeding 600hp considering the tolerance if one is willing to sacrifice torque (I know, the car actually accelerates better with that 240 cam! That is not the point of this build)
- Single plane is a must, dual plane is ridiculous for max hp, -50hp loss
- Lastly the most important thing, and this is why I think that people do not get anywhere close to desktopdyno numbers in real dynos. HEADERS! You need to include mufflers! Without mufflers the combos make easy 650+hp (even tested with small tube headers for this 427) and you can get some 600hp even out of a teeny weeny 383 if you use open tubes. I always use mufflers and that already takes away ~30hp of those exaggerated figures.

These factors given the combo makes 621 HP and 581 TQ. Max HP at exactly 6500rpm and Max TQ at 5000rpm.


And here also a distributorless ignition is used, 1-2" carb spacer can used if needed, and if I fall in the 590hp area (95% of DD2000) it should be possible to adjust to make at least an even 600hp. And for street I might remove the spacers and enjoy more TQ, it usually is a trade off there also. There is also a lot of power when adjusting your Air/Fuel-ratio. My last build went from 403 to 420+ hp when the mixture close to lean side. This is also how people get good short term figures but that will not last. We decided to adjust my engines mixture to a healthy "mid-ratio" in order to make sure that there is no lean or rich burn under any circumstances. In TV they never adjust their timing or mixtures. Just slap everything on and adjust by ear. That is total BS considering your engines life. You can make power with lean mix but that is not the way you should leave it, and also that is not the real everyday HP either. I strongly recommend all to take their engines to a real dyno and adjust the mix with 02 sensors plugged in too use all your MAX SAFE HP figures.

For comparison I tried using all the same spec parts, but changing the cubes to 421 the engine actually gained +1HP but lost 20TQ. It probably has better bore/stroke ratio so this could be true (not that the program knows that). Still makes sense?

Remember that Enginefactory promised same figures with a lot less cam, lift, head cfm and even smaller carb. When spending the money it does not cost more than 20$ extra to buy 950 carb instead of 850. Also cam, same price, change the lift: no price difference there either.
That in mind why do they offer so "small" parts. Because in their dyno they run open tubes to make big figures which are not true when you bolt the engine to your car...Or run very lean possibly even with spacers... Am I right?

Last edited by Dunig; 11-01-2017 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:39 AM
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:05 AM
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Let's try if this picture looks better..
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Old 11-01-2017, 09:35 AM
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I wonder what kind of numbers that would come up with for something with a tunnel ram and correspondingly more carb (or some other induction setup)? And maybe a little porting on the heads? Might allow hitting 600hp with a little less cam to keep things a bit more docile for street driving.
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Old 11-01-2017, 01:24 PM
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I can tell you right off the bat that running a really big hydraulic roller cam with them specs your going to need a set of lifters that will handle a lot more spring pressure and also be able to rev way past 6000 rpm with out issues and most of the hydraulic roller street lifters don't handle to much pressure before you get into the issues of risk of the lifter having pump up or not being able to keep things under control.

The dart shp block which I am in the process of building a 377 cubic in small chevy build with a hydraulic roller cam can take oem type setup or the link bar lifters but they have to be the taller .300 ones in order for the link bar to clear but if you use a set which they call retrofit they have the link bar lower on the lifter. The only difference between the retrofit hydraulic roller lifters and the .300 87 and up link bar style lifters is the link bar is just .300 higher on the body of the lifter but everything else is the same. You would never be able to run a oem lifter type setup on that big size of a cam as none are made to take that kind of abuse that I am aware of as anything past .530 lift with 1.5 rockers the lifter can drop to far below the dogbone part that keeps the lifter from spinning and it would wreck havoc and anything past 6000 rpm on the oem setup you run the risk of it. They do make a certain oem type lifter for some LS builds that can take a lot more spring pressure and rev up much higher but they need light valve train parts to do so as the lifter bodies are not made to handle really extreme pressure.

That is from my research on the topic but for lifters you won't find any for $500 that will work for that type of a hefty cam. The street series hydraulic roller lifters don't like much pressure more then 130 seat pressure and over 350 open pressure from some articles of cam makers have stated as that also goes for SADI cam cores which are cast. You would want a billet hydraulic roller cam if you choose to go that route but with anything past [email protected] 50 a solid roller would be more durable compared to a hydraulic but I know why the wanting for a hydraulic roller.

The lifter that is good for street use I have listed below and that is what I would recommend for what your wanting to build as they have way stronger bodies compared to the entry level street lifters that are under $500 and they also have a bigger .750 roller wheel compared to the others which only have .700 wheel and the lifter I listed below also have stronger needle bearings inside and the wheels are stronger material as well. They can be reved up a lot higher and handle a lot more spring pressure. Now depending on the cam and what is recommended for spring pressure if have something in the high 170 pound seat pressure range or up then your looking in excess of about $900 more for a lifter to handle that kind of pressure.

There are some hydraulic lifters that are made for such builds but they are not cheap by any means. For my cam I could go with a street series but I have them the limit and I have the works put into my build and I am not cheaping out on anything so I am spending the extra as the howards race series hydraulic lifters are the best you can get for street use lifters with out being all out racing as there like the in between from street performance to all out racing type. Some other options are what are called limited travel hydraulic lifters which don't have hardly any lifter depth at all and at zero lash you only go about an 1/8 of a turn past and no more as they offer way more top rpm stability compared to lifters that have normal plunger depth. I don't know the numbers right off hand but I think the limited ones only have about .030 depth at the most but I could be wrong and a lot of the info is what I have read from articles on valve train options etc and not my experience.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-91163/overview/

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Old 11-02-2017, 03:21 AM
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Eric32,


thank you for your thorough post. A lot to think about and I have to look closely to that cam/lift/lifter/rocker/pushrod setup. Good to know about the .300 raised link bar lifters, I did not even realize they were available. And yes probably have to go with limited travel lifters also to make sure they do not get too soft and slow when rpm goes past 6k.


This is for sure one of the areas where I rely on my builder. But probably there is a way to find a good combo. As shown in Desktop dyno I believe that my goal is within reach wit careful planning and tuning. Should be able to make 600+ with 400+ cubes. Magic is in the heads and cam as always.


One thought here I came up with last night. And you are going to say I told you so... But if I want a daily driver and a drag beast they can be combined poorly or done well separately. And which way is more cost effective? Basically change or upgrade all the parts that I now have, or leave they as they are and buy new stronger parts for another car...


Let's see the options


1) Since I have a reasonable 355 and my Camaro set up for that already I could convert that to hydr.retrofit roller and bring it to some 450'ish HP for a daily driver without beefing up anything. So I could drive it anywhere with very good street manners. Or I could sell it and build a 383 hyd.roller for 500-550 HP and still be quite streetable with my current 2004r and 10-bolt posi. I could drive it as is and car is worth around 20k. If go up to 427 the engine alone is +15k and beefing up the rest is another 10k. So I would have to sink in 25k and the value would only go up some 5k so I end up with 25k car of which I would have paid 45k. I can live with that, this is a hobby.


2) Keep the current car as daily and start from scratch with for example a cool BB Chevelle and buy a 496 stroked balanced block, throw in the best set of 325 heads I can afford and tub the car for some 28" tires. And then Build the engine for around 14:1 compression and E85 fuel! That would bring the power to a whole different level! I'm talking about 700-750 HP easy. Car some 15k, engine and accessories 15k, Drivetrain, suspension and tires another 10k. Interior no matter except roll cage. I would have some 40k in a car that would be again a 25k car (very small group of enthusiast here).


So option 1) burn 45k and end up with a car worth 25k = loss 20k$ and end up with 600hp and a car that is difficult to drive and requires a lot of maintenance...
or option 2) keep the 20k daily as is, and build a 40k hobby car especially for its purpose, ends up being worth around 25k. Total spent 60k and you have two cars worth of 45k = loss 15k$ and have two cars that handle well for the intended purpose, total over 1000hp and not to mention to have these classic cars in your garage. That is something else around here!


Hmm. this is getting interesting. Also the dragster could be built slowly / gather parts here and there and at the same time enjoy the nice daily driver. Or with option 1 have your car torn apart all the time and drive only occasionally if it even works :/ Maybe I could do now the stroker 383ci E85 14:1 for 550hp, the block and parts are cheap. So close to 600 with nice manners and still blows your socks off. If needs to go to 10's then start stripping weight...


As conclusion from where this thread started I think that even with 95/98oct gasoline the 600hp mark is reachable with SBC but is it worth the money is a whole different question.
With E85 it would be easier, and I consider that normal gasoline around here, so definitely doable.


Very very difficult choices...


Dunig

Last edited by Dunig; 11-02-2017 at 03:30 AM.
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Old 11-02-2017, 06:22 AM
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Decisions, Decisions, Decisions..... LOL

Can I ask a question a little off topic, so what happens if a vehicle comes stock with a Supercharger in your Country ? Does it still have to go through this high price test procedure ?

I only ask because as you are seeing it is very difficult to have 600 to 800 HP on a NA motor (and still have a good street manners for a daily driver). However reaching that on a Supercharged motor is pretty dam easy these days (especially with the newer vehicles). And buying a built SC Vehicle is pretty reasonable, (hell I'm on my 11th Supercharged Vehicle now).
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Old 11-02-2017, 07:56 AM
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Hi Rob,

Firstly, there are NONE Supercharged cars here for sale, I mean standard new cars with supercharger. There are some Ferraris and Lambos and such but they are exception, which leads to Second point: IF you are a car seller or importer company and want to sell that model, you have to do all these tests to the model you are going to sell. Then the model is approved and can be sold and people can buy without hassle. But that costs a lot. And the price of the cars would be ridiculous.

We don't have F-150 raptors or Hellcats or even Mustangs since they are ridiculously expensive here, or whatever models have superchargers. For example in US Mustang base model (without charger) costs something 24.900$, in here the base model is 60.000€ = some 70.000 USD. No one buys those unless they win the lottery. And I can not even think about what a supercharged super version would cost. If you had a 50k car, here it would be some 200k. The more they eat gasoline the heavier the taxation (when selling new cars). That's also why I like to start with an old "cheap" and EMISSION FREE classic that costs something like 15k imported and then build it the way I like. And no one can buy the same from store
But, since some year in the 90's or after 2000, can't remember cause I'm not interested in boosting, the law is that you can import a boosted car in standard condition if that exact specific car has been equipped with charger from the factory. And you still need the manufacturers paperwork to prove the power level and emissions. If you take base model and slap on a charger it has to be approved by inspection where they verify that is has been brought up to same standard as the boosted model. It can then be approved if you can present all the manufacturers documents showing that all brakes, engine components etc are the same, and emission are within European limits.


I'm not too sure about this stuff, I just know that you should use a stock turbo car as basis for your build if you want turbo, and keep N/A's as they were.


About emissions though if your car pre-dates 1979 it is considered "emission limit free" and you can for example turbo charge it without conducting these emission tests. But again, the engine power can not exceed more than 20% of the power of the original engine in that car. So boosting for example my SBC would not gain more than +20% HP, so that's why NA builds are more supported here. Stupid rules anyway...
And I don't even know if you first transform it to BB and get it approved that way, if you can boost 20% on top of the stock most powerful BB model, or if it is still compared to the stock small block power that the car had to begin with.


The most easy is to stroke your small block NA and not tell anyone. Or buy already registered BB or import a big block and get it registered with the BB with status saying that "it has always been a BB since new", and then either stroke it or charge it +20%.

Last edited by Dunig; 11-02-2017 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:58 AM
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The thing with performance stuff is the more you want and the higher up the rpm range goes also the street friendly and manors of any kind go away with it as you can't have high performance with big duration cams and expect to have street manors. You can still make good power up to a certain point and still have something streetable and exactly what that point is it will depend on the person as to what is streetable to me might not be to someone else.

To me you can have a cam with a 110 lsa and be up to [email protected] for decent street manors but from 200 to [email protected] you can drive something like that all day long in most traffic conditions and still have good idle manors. When you get into the 220 to [email protected] 50 that is where the idle part becomes fair at best and still can be driven as a daily driver type deal but its not a grocery type getter. Camshaft numbers such as overlap and lobe separation angle and other factors will play into this as well along with engine combo and rear gear ratio and transmission and stall convertor if using an automatic.

Any cam I have had in the 230 @ 50 duration and up I never had good street manors and driving in town without any highway driving was never good over a long period of time as higher rpm range engines want to rev and not putt around. My Dad once owned a 1971 mustang with a 460 big block that was all worked out and he ran a dual tunnel ram and that thing was one wicked ride and the heads were all worked out and he had a really hefty size cam inside it and I don't remember all the specs but he ran a solid lifter cam to boot and a manual transmission.

Because of some bad things with job issues he had to sell it for money and the guy he sold it too was told this car is not a daily driver type of a deal and its made for power and not putting around in town and being to made to be cool type of a deal. Lets just say the guy who bought it did not listen and the poor engine died a horrible death from too much low rpm driving in town day after day. He ended up blowing the engine up and killed it from all that town low rpm driving stuff. An engine that has big lungs does not want to breath through a straw.

Here is my build I am working on that is a balance between making some nice power while still being fair on street manors. I am currently building the following.

377 dart shp small block chevy 4.155 bore x 3.480 stroke
Weiand dual plane intake with a holley double pumper (650 and 750) 9.7 CR
Dart pro 1 platinum 200cc heads 72cc chamber
Mike Jones custom hydraulic roller cam 278/282 228/232 547/547 lift 107 icl with a 110 lsa
Scat forged crank and H beam rods with Icon forged flat top pistons 3.7 CC

Turbo 350 transmission with a custom torque converter which will be made by freakshow convertors and will be 2500 to 2800 rpm range. Rear end gears of 3.42 posi traction in a 96 chevy s10 3000lbs.

That build is based off of a dart 372 that made 470 horsepower and 470 ftlbs of torque with dart 180cc pro 1 heads and a pretty small [email protected] 50 flat tappet cam. The dart 400 with 200cc pro 1 heads and a [email protected] 50 hydraulic roller cam made over 525 horsepower and 500 plus ftlbs of torque.

I based my 377 off of both of those builds and should be knocking on the door at near 500 hp give or take a little. For me this build is right at the limit from my view for fair street manors and still being able to cruise and not having to run race fuel and it being a big tuning headache with a really big size cam cause the bigger the cam and more overlap it has the more it takes to dial them in depending on ones experience on carb tuning etc.

Please make sure of what your going to do with your motor and how you want to enjoy it as take it from me who has waisted thousands of dollars over the years on thinking big this or want it to sound like that type of a deal as its not worth it to do so. Do your homework and weigh the options of the pros and cons as the more power you want it comes at a trade off of the bottom end and midrange and streetability.
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunig View Post
Hi Rob,



About emissions though if your car pre-dates 1979 it is considered "emission limit free" and you can for example turbo charge it without conducting these emission tests. But again, the engine power can not exceed more than 20% of the power of the original engine in that car. So boosting for example my SBC would not gain more than +20% HP, so that's why NA builds are more supported here. Stupid rules anyway...
Can you say boost controller? Either electric or manual - one (base) setting for 4-5 psi and the sky is the limit from there lol.
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:30 PM
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TURN KEY SBC 427 STAGE 5.2 DART BLOCK, AFR HEADS, CRATE MOTOR, HYDRAULIC ROLLER CAM, 628 HP & 580 lb. FEET OF TORQUE @ 4900 RPM. RUNS ON PREMIUM PUMP GAS.
$8,750.00

https://www.skipwhiteperformance.com...-628-hp_84286/

Tom
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Old 11-03-2017, 05:43 AM
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Dam thats a real nice motor with some great cam & manifold choices for a very reasonable price
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