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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2010, 11:32 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
Ok, Iím beginning to see where the confusion is coming from. My apologies for not clarifying.

What Iím referring to is the practice of painters who jack up their air pressure trying to spread their metallics properly during application. When too much air pressure is used, it produces a dry effect to the basecoat and even single coat applications. This dry effect produces a lighter tone in the finish. In addition, the metallics wonít lay down as they should when applied properly.

Doeís this explain it better?
Yes, but it doesn't take "jacking up" the pressure. Simple spray technique can produce the same thing and barely any pressure change can do it as well.

With the new waterborne base, two or three pounds will change the color so friggin much it would blow you away!

I am not taking about the metallics not laying down as they "should", they are gathered at the top more, THAT is why the color is lighter.

The higher the pressure the lighter the color because more metallic stays at the top, both bc and SS that is just what happens, it is common understanding in auto painting.

And if you spray too wet the opposite happens, the metallics sink in the film. So no, they are not distributed evenly throughout the film.

And if you have "buffed" a single stage metallic you didn't CUT it, that is for sure. If you CUT a SS metallic and buff it back to a shine it WILL be ruined, it simply can't be done. If you have pulled off some buffing without ruining it, you are awesome. But it should be made real clear to others who may want to give it a try that it is a huge no-no usually resulting in disasterious results.

Again, you can "shoe shine" a SS metallic, but you aren't going to cut it much, or it will cut thru the layers of metallic and look like crap.

Brian

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Old 01-28-2010, 12:49 AM
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When blending a single stage you have to use a high grade thinner. No fast dry or medium dry. It needs to go on wet, even the reduced mixture when blending, so as to reduce the cut when buffing. You only get one shot at it. Down the road if itís buffed again and whoever does, it isnít aware of the blend a break in the blend will occur.

Brian, Iíve done plenty of blends and perfected my method. It was my little niche to a lot of dealer work with their high liners. And, youíre correct; many of our readers here would not be able to blend as well as I can with single stage. Back when we only had single stage, many painters couldnít.

I think weíre going to continue to disagree about buffing metallic single stage. Thatís ok I can live with it.

Now you bring up waterborne paints. Thatís a whole other thread.

Yes, any deviation, no mater how slight, when spraying waterborne is going to affect the result. Itís a difficult paint to spray to begin with. Even before you start your at a disadvantage because the manufacturer uses an electrostatic charge to polarize the coating and assist with the metallic spread and lay down. Moreover, they employ variable shading in the primer; limit the coating so that some of the primer shows through the topcoat, and clearcoat.

Again, waterborne coating is a whole other thread topic.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2010, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjperotti
When blending a single stage you have to use a high grade thinner. No fast dry or medium dry. It needs to go on wet, even the reduced mixture when blending, so as to reduce the cut when buffing. You only get one shot at it. Down the road if itís buffed again and whoever does, it isnít aware of the blend a break in the blend will occur.

Brian, Iíve done plenty of blends and perfected my method. It was my little niche to a lot of dealer work with their high liners. And, youíre correct; many of our readers here would not be able to blend as well as I can with single stage. Back when we only had single stage, many painters couldnít.

I think weíre going to continue to disagree about buffing metallic single stage. Thatís ok I can live with it.

Now you bring up waterborne paints. Thatís a whole other thread.

Yes, any deviation, no mater how slight, when spraying waterborne is going to affect the result. Itís a difficult paint to spray to begin with. Even before you start your at a disadvantage because the manufacturer uses an electrostatic charge to polarize the coating and assist with the metallic spread and lay down. Moreover, they employ variable shading in the primer; limit the coating so that some of the primer shows through the topcoat, and clearcoat.

Again, waterborne coating is a whole other thread topic.

There is no argument over whether an open blend IS going to fail, WHEN is the only thing to discuss.

Again, you have 2 coats of protection, a foot away you have zero coats. What happens in between? Well it goes from 2 coats to 1 to 1/2 to 1/4, to 1/8 to 1/10 to 1/12 to 1/20 to 1/50 to 1/90 and so on to nothing. That 1/90th of a coat is going to be rubbed off with a friggin rag while washing the car!

An open blend "works" until the car leaves, that is about it. And yes I have seen them last a long time, but I have seen them fail more. And I did a lot of home work on it too and prided myself in doing the best damn blend I could do. And I still feel guilty for all those cars I did open blends on, they failed and now I know it.

Brian
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
There is no argument over whether an open blend IS going to fail, WHEN is the only thing to discuss.

Again, you have 2 coats of protection, a foot away you have zero coats. What happens in between? Well it goes from 2 coats to 1 to 1/2 to 1/4, to 1/8 to 1/10 to 1/12 to 1/20 to 1/50 to 1/90 and so on to nothing. That 1/90th of a coat is going to be rubbed off with a friggin rag while washing the car!

An open blend "works" until the car leaves, that is about it. And yes I have seen them last a long time, but I have seen them fail more. And I did a lot of home work on it too and prided myself in doing the best damn blend I could do. And I still feel guilty for all those cars I did open blends on, they failed and now I know it.

Brian
Of course, they failed down the road. That's not our problem; you as well as I did the best we could with what we had to work with. We did what the customer wanted and demanded we do. We never had a choice in those days. Today we do and have moved forward.
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Old 01-28-2010, 05:37 PM
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I have sprayed metallic single stages in the truck industry for years also. Anything from Centari, Sunfire, Imron, Imron 5000 and the latest PPG 3.5 voc also. I have never been able to color sand and buff without changing the color somewhat. Also never seen a 3.5 blend that has been buffed that didnt look completely like *****......maybe some of the 4.6 voc stuff but never a 3.5. always irritated the crap out of me every time i thought i could do it.
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwilliams181
I have sprayed metallic single stages in the truck industry for years also. Anything from Centari, Sunfire, Imron, Imron 5000 and the latest PPG 3.5 voc also. I have never been able to color sand and buff without changing the color somewhat. Also never seen a 3.5 blend that has been buffed that didnt look completely like *****......maybe some of the 4.6 voc stuff but never a 3.5. always irritated the crap out of me every time i thought i could do it.

Yes, enamel is difficult to blend and requires a higher degree than single stage lacquer.

Again, you must use a high-grade reducer and the process is longer than lacquer because of enamel properties. It cannot be sprayed dry or with any orange peel. You pretty much have to spray matching the texture already there already. Therefore, when itís time to buff you donít have to wet sand. Moreover, you donít use a compound to buff the blend. Instead, you use Miracle Wax to buff.

Trust me, blending enamel correctly to match the texture, already there, isnít easy. In my area, only my mentor and I were good at it. Many painters tried doing what we could do but failed.
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:55 AM
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Burning in the blend never was the problem just never looked like it hadnt been done once it was buffed. Also could only get a good blend with poly from and dupont or ppg blending clear. Ruducers just never seemed to do a good enough job.
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Old 01-29-2010, 03:04 PM
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To tell you the truth. I was taught to use Dupont 3661S lacquer thinner with the enamels. It hardens and dries the finish faster and doesn't have that false gloss associated with using reducer while retaining a more factory type gloss.

That's probably why no-one else I know could copy our blend technique. I never discussed our secret to our blending procedure prior to this thread.

Last edited by cjperotti; 01-29-2010 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:48 PM
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well glad you did. will have to try it.
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Old 01-31-2010, 06:04 PM
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i never would have tried laquer thinner on fresh enamel. wow that is scary to me.
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