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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:05 PM
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More accurate description of what happened is the new head has a better airflow velocity profile and better mixture dispersion through the air column....and no longer needs to be run rich to cover up a poor factory head's deficiencies. So now you've got to lean the carb up.
Efficiency of the port goes up, amount of fuel needed goes down even as power goes up.
Same situation you run into when you replace big chamber smogger SBC head with modern Vortec chamber heads....make more power while needing less fuel to do it because your not running the mixture fat to cover up the heads deficient burn characteristics.

A lot of guys have bought into the "factory large oval port head is a great head" BS from word of mouth or magazine info or intel from a pro engine builder spotlight, but have lost one key bit of info along the way.....those "great oval ports" are not great in stock form.
You've got to add the large rectangle port size 2.19"(or at least a Mopar 2.14") intake valve and bowl blend and cut back the short side radius leading to the valve seat to make these heads really work.
Leave the stock 2.06" intake valve in there and it don't matter what port work you do they will never work well because of the rotten short turn in the bowl.....and now it's getting very close to the point where the cost of doing all that puts you into budget aluminum head territory making all that effort into old iron a waste of time. If you can't port yourself, then it gets really costly to rebuild an oval port head into something usable for performance.

Maybe the engine now being 75+ lbs lighter it's just doing a happy dance on the motor mounts now?

Cool to see you are making headway with it

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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2019, 05:26 AM
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You know even if you were joking, what you said about the lighter heads makes sense to me. Not sure if I can explain it properly, but the old heads with all their mass and their distance from the crank would dampen the rotational forces opposite of each cylinder firing. Less mass less dampening. For a BBC isn't it closer to 100lbs. lighter? (I'm going by Skip White's ad) I don't know, but it really does vibrate! I'm not sure if the engine is doing the happy dance, but I'm close to doing it.

Since adjusting the APT seemed to take care of the light throttle rich mix, if I get lucky I only have to change or adjust the rod hanger for the secondaries. Which means I won't even have to open the carb up. Sometimes Q-jets can be easy!
For anyone with a Quadrajet with APT with an aluminum plug in the top, long ago I had drilled a little hole part way into it. I turn in a drywall screw snug and pop the plug out. The adjustment takes a double D shaped adjustment tool which I suppose is the same as a clutch head driver.
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Last edited by 55 Tony; 05-08-2019 at 05:49 AM.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2019, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 55 Tony View Post

Timing with a light, I won't even try to explain it but for some reason *sometimes* (actually most of the time) a light shows false readings. Not just my light, two of mine and someone else's. And not just me, a real good ole' mechanic that still has one. Had to advance it till it kicks back when starting, then back a little. (light shows advanced about 50 and God knows what with the mechanical advance ... I think I'm in another Bermuda Triangle) OK, now it's idling good, or so it seems. I never can figure out if it has a miss or it's the cam sound. Out of gear light throttle it has a definite miss or three from 1000 to 3000rpm. Nothing too concerning since it had that before. In gear she feel pretty steady. I adjusted the idle screws really lean and it idles good that way.

8.

Just another question about that 50* mark - is that at idle? And idle is ??? RPM?
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by chasracer View Post
Just another question about that 50* mark - is that at idle? And idle is ??? RPM?

It's actually a 40* mark but up 10+ degrees on the timing pointer. To answer your question, yes at idle, about 800rpm. No vac advance.
I just had a thought, I recall the guy who first built it telling me about these marine rods he from a 454 that he was going to swap with mine (he didn't), I don't suppose I could have a reverse rotation crank could I, if there is such a thing?
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 05-08-2019, 06:11 PM
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Okay. So where is the timing at 3000 RPM?
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 05-10-2019, 06:52 PM
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Just another question about that 50* mark - is that at idle? And idle is ??? RPM?

Well ... like I said, sometimes it works. Yesterday was one of those days. It was at about 22 at idle, I set it back to 18-19. At about 3000 or before the timing is 38* without the vacuum advance.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2019, 09:05 AM
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Logic tells me that something has to be moving around but I know you have checked and re-checked everything involved. Oh well, I had an idea but that scraps it.
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2019, 01:50 PM
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I've found this to often be a plug wire resistance/insulation/parts combo/timing light/MSD spark related situation. Timing light gets fooled. Some days the air temp, humidity, baro pressure, density, ion charge is just right and it reads correctly, but those days are hit or miss.
Put one cheap stock carbon core spark plug wire on #1 cylinder, just for timing purposes and the problem usually disappears. Set your timing, pull the cheap wire off and put your good wire back on.

Good electrical grounds everywhere in the engine bay are important....ground each head to firewall, make sure distributor body has a good ground to manifold, make sure heads, block, and intake manifold have good ground to battery.

Electricity doesn't just have to get to where it is going(device)...it has to get back from there also. Ground path is just as important as the infeed line, it has to make the complete loop back to battery ground.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2019, 08:45 AM
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Found the cause of the vibration. Although the headers bolted right up, #3 tube is touching the steering box. Got it a little better but it needs more room, or I should say it need *some* room, not touching.

Went for a mostly gentle ride yesterday with my girlfriend. It's still as street friendly as before if not more so.

I evidently adjusted the secondary rod hanger too far since it developed a nasty lean bog at a quick WOT and the A/F gauge confirmed that. I think I'll try a different pair of rods and hanger set.

I smelled the copper rtv cooking on the reducer joints. I'm going out to the garage soon to see if it got hard or anything after cooling down. It did get rid of some real nasty backfiring when letting off WOT, I'll wait and see if it holds up.

Don't recall if I said it before, but those Kool Nuts really work. My one new rocker showed little signs of overheating, so far anyway. And this is with stronger springs.

Good thing I hammered on the firewall when the right head was off. The M/T cover just barely fit's on. Have to turn and twist it a couple directions to clear a rocker, then it's fine. The covers look nice and zero leaks, even with wide phillips head bolts in them just tightened with a screwdriver. Still waiting for the stainless flange bolts to arrive.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:49 PM
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First off, I don't know if I should continue this thread or go on here? For now I'll go on.
The other day when the timing light seemed to be working, I retarded the timing to 18* initial. I forget how soon after that I drove it, but the other day when out with the girlfriend it seemed to have lost a lot of power (aside from the lean bog). I played with the carb and got rid of the bog and WOT is still too rich but getting closer.

Still seemed to have lost a lot of power so I messed with the distributor, advancing it. Bang! She runs great again, the best I've ever fealt. But low speed (30 to 40mph) light throttle up hill it has some pinging. I can get around it by giving it more or less throttle but I don't want to run it like that. I slightly richened the part throttle range but it didn't seem to help. The timing light is again reading who knows what, actually it was reading 45* advanced at idle with no vacuum, so that method of checking it isn't any good. It runs so darn good at WOT that I feel I really don't want to retard the timing. I did disconnect and plug the vacuum advance and left it that way. That didn't seem to help either. I'm thinking of heavier springs to slow down the advance curve, but the pinging is in the 2K to 3.5K range so I'm thinking that would hurt performance. I'm afraid to ask if there are electronics made that would adjust timing, partially based on throttle position, because it's probably very pricey if there is such a thing.

The other thing is that with my old heads I not only had more compression, but I could advance the timing to where it was hard to start and it ran well and didn't ping or knock. Now I've a little lower compression (my *cranking compression* went from 210 down to 180) due to the head cc's and the gasket ring being a lot larger. So now I'm before the point timing wise, where it starts hard, but I'm getting the pinging.

At this point I'm not sure if I'm askiing a question or just ranting? I'm going to go out and try just one step with one stronger spring in the mechanical advance and see what that does. I either need a helper (none till friday) or a timing light with a tach to see just when the mechanical is all out/in whatever you call it.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2019, 09:21 AM
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Went to the track twice and ran pretty much the same times or worse.

Emailed Skip White on Saturday and he got back to me with some questions about the cam, carb, blah, blah. Replied this morning and got a phone call from him today. Told me that those heads are on the large size for a 454 and I should stroke it to a 496.

I think I'd be better off putting the old parts back on it and selling it and starting with a new/different block?


Oh Edit: also said my compression is too low since it dropped with the heads and gasket.
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Old 06-03-2019, 02:14 PM
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Is your mph at the trap at the same or better?

You very well may be running out of cam and carb. Does your car fall over dead towards the end or does it keep pulling?

300cc runners are big no matter the shape they are, so you’ve got a big windpipe (intake port)with a small mouth(carb and intake) and a conservative brain(the cam)

What cam, intake, and carb do you have. And what stall tc? Plus your gears?

If it runs fine, leave it be and upgrade the rest to match it. No point going backwards now that your running.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2019, 06:38 PM
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Is your mph at the trap at the same or better?

You very well may be running out of cam and carb. Does your car fall over dead towards the end or does it keep pulling?

300cc runners are big no matter the shape they are, so you’ve got a big windpipe (intake port)with a small mouth(carb and intake) and a conservative brain(the cam)

What cam, intake, and carb do you have. And what stall tc? Plus your gears?

If it runs fine, leave it be and upgrade the rest to match it. No point going backwards now that your running.

MPH is about the same.
I got the impression that his answer to everything was to stroke it.
He at one point even said the cam is almost too big ... maybe borderline.

The cam is a comp 11-450-8, the intake is what they said is good, an Edelbrock RPM, he also said my 3K stall convertor is good but if stroking it I should take out the 4.10 gears and re-install the 3.42's.


edit: I'll run it for now. I may even forget the track and put the old convertor and 3.42 gears in it. Not sure which I would try first?
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 06-03-2019, 10:11 PM
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Any chance you can still take of DFish1247's offer to loan you a different carb(Holley or Demon 750 IIRC) for a test, or anyone else near you??

I'm not convinced the Q-Jet is doing you any favors.

Have you run it open headered to see what it's like??
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Old 06-03-2019, 10:16 PM
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Since you're using a qjet, I'd think that's holding you down some. They can take a car into the 10's, but they need some real lovin to do it. So you might see about getting it worked over for your engine specifically. Or ditch it and try a 850dp holley, more people can help you out with those. That's the least invasive thing I can think of, your funky timing thing don't help matters either, but if it runs good, leave it be.

What ET do you think you should be running now vs before?


If you're serious about wanting an aftermarket block, why not look into the best intake ever designed for a tri five big block car or any car truthfully, the belt driven intake. It''ll cost more than an aftermarket block and rotating assembly when all is said and done( forged guts, dish pistons, 4 stud not bolt caps, etc) but you'll have power to spare. You can't tell me the aluminum lung hanging out of the hood isn't sweet. And the only whine men love to hear, quite a few do women as well too.

Above sounds good unless you're broke like me.

Bigger stroke means different oil pan to clear that stroke, I'd make sure something is available for your car before committing to a bigger stroke engine, aftermarket block or not. And you still have to get all of it to work together correctly.


Eric, that carb is gone. You got me by a few seconds,hehe.
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