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-   -   Starting a T build. Putting the horse before the cart. (https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/starting-t-build-putting-horse-before-cart-512985.html)

Mykk 05-30-2018 02:04 PM

Starting a T build. Putting the horse before the cart.
 
Hey Guys, I have this dream of building a T-bucket. A nice & low, big attitude, exposed engine roadster that will be different then others. Simple frame, T-body with turtle deck or Track-T body. Jaguar independent rear end. Manual trans and of course my own home built powerplant:

I present the late 90's BMW 4.4L V8 shortblock.

https://preview.ibb.co/gBiMOR/2017_11_21_16_10_18.jpg

Shown here with Raceware head studs, as you'll find out why in a bit:

https://preview.ibb.co/cQ7bSm/2017_11_25_14_03_25.jpg

Also picked up, a complete early 90's BMW 4.0L V8 to sacrifice it's heads, double roller timing set up and misc hardware.

https://preview.ibb.co/btQWrG/2017_10_05_07_14_45.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/c884vb/2017_10_08_15_56_24.jpg

Time to grab some measurements. @ TDC the pistons sit +.025" above deck. I also founf the pistons have a slight dish to them and found roughly 4cc of volume in the piston tops.

https://preview.ibb.co/iiWeqG/2017_12_03_12_15_34.jpg

The only readily available MLS head gaskets available for the application come in a 1.74mm compressed thickness.

The heads are back from machine shop rebuild:

https://preview.ibb.co/iiWeqG/2017_12_03_12_15_34.jpg

Measured roughly 52cc of volume from every chamber.

https://preview.ibb.co/bsVfeH/2018_04_23_12_55_30.jpg


By my calc, 92mm bore, 82.7mm stroke, +.025" piston height, 4cc dish, 1,74mm head gasket, 52cc combustion chambers. I come up with roughly 9.6:1 static compression


Heads torqued down. New timing guides. Intake manifold adapter bolted in place.

https://preview.ibb.co/kVudYc/2018_04_23_12_56_20.jpg

Intake manifold adapters? For what you ask?...getting there.

Double roller timing chains:

https://preview.ibb.co/dbKHTc/2018_04_24_12_13_39.jpg

Mocked up with the belt driven intake manifold. An Eaton M112, water to air heat exchangers, intake manifolds & injection from a late 90's Jaguar XJ8.

https://preview.ibb.co/dGjH8n/2018_05_01_20_42_56.jpg

Bolting on timing covers and front end:

https://preview.ibb.co/gaXD8y/2018_05_16_16_37_50.jpg

Just recently degree'd the cams; using the BMW cam alignment tools I've found that Bank1 was 2 degree's retard of Bank2. I liked the Bank2 cam timings better so I re-adjusted Bank1 to match.

https://preview.ibb.co/cDPo2d/2018_05_29_21_43_38.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/m3Uuay/2018_05_29_21_44_15.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/jYWCTJ/2018_05_29_21_48_17.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/cDPo2d/2018_05_29_21_43_38.jpg


With both banks now all using the same cam timing events I've measured:

@.001mm: 240 / 240 - 108 ICL / 108 LSA

@ 1mm: 211 / 206 duration.


.380" intake lift / .370" exhaust lift.

Adding some color:

https://preview.ibb.co/kij0vo/2018_05_20_17_54_55.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/kk4SrT/2018_05_20_10_45_01.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/kEh6O8/2018_05_23_10_08_21.jpg

I plan to mate this engine to a BMW native Getrag 420G 6 speed manual trans.


That's where I'm currently at. On a parts hold as little bits and pieces come in. Thanks for checking out my build. I'll be back with updates and to talk about the plan for EFI management.

454 Rattler 05-31-2018 09:10 AM

Welcome to HR.com. Keep up the great work. You've got me impressed and I can't wait to see more.


454 RATTLER

techinspector1 05-31-2018 10:33 AM

I'm impressed. Nice work kid....:thumbup:

'48 Austin 05-31-2018 10:50 AM

Very very nice! Certainly something very different from a SBC. Keep us informed on the build.

rdscotty 06-01-2018 10:20 PM

Wow! ...Just wow.

That's all I've got.

delawarebill 06-02-2018 07:20 AM

a fantastic start
 
but u need to look at the body. how tall are u ??? buckets don't have a ton of leg room and a clutch is a pain. 2 peddles and a steering column within 12in space. now they do make extended and wider bodies. i would not go with independent front susp. like an "A" arm. they just don't look right. a bucket usually weights less then 2000#. so u don't need a ton of power, but oh what fun smoking both tires have.
wiring.. don't put fuse box under the seat, affix to fire wall. u will get caught in rain and a box under the seat and water.... well...
master cyl.. locate under the seat with an ext arm from peddle and cut a hole in floor to access the top of m/c.
locate battery and fuel tank (10gal) in rear of deck
and if your not tall enough to throw your leg over body, door is needed.
ok that'll keep u going or thinking for a while.

'48 Austin 06-02-2018 10:43 AM

T buckets are cool but only slightly more practical than a Motorcycle. That's coming from a guy who lives in northern New England. I've come to really appreciate roll up windows and a roof. Other opinions will vary.

Mykk 06-03-2018 06:53 AM

Thank you for the support and positive feedback.


I totally understand how uncomfortable a T can be, especially for a 6'1" 220lb guy like myself. As a kid a fenderless roadster was the definition of cool hot rodding and it stuck with me, Although they are out there you don't see them at cruise-in's as much anymore, becoming rare makes them cooler for me. And sometimes they are put together quite goofy.



I'd imagine the 3 pedals, brake master & clutch master would all be frame mount. Electronics, Fuse block, computer, MSD boxes would be interior firewall mount. I've got my eye on a set of fabricated bomber style seats.



For steering, as much of a laid back tilt angle would be most desirable. I've seen some of the vertical mount columns & wheels in T's and have thought..."How do you drive it? Like one of those spin tea cup rides at the fair?" There is a photo of a Track-T that has the steering pitman arm come out of the side of the body which I thought looked pretty cool and gets the steering gear out of the footspace. I'd imagine the high up mounted steering gear is on a roll-bar type loop as I don't think they bodies are strong enough to support the gear.


Despite the independent jaguar rear end, the front would be traditional solid axle & control arm/wishbone. Wouldn't want to ruin that classic front end look. I'm even debating front end Moon tank.

Mykk 06-03-2018 07:42 AM

On to engine to engine management: I've been tuning automotive EFI for years, mostly GM systems for Silverados & Vettes. I've taken the past couple of years to learn the BMW obd1 Bosch Motronic hex-code and how to tune those systems.



Although educational, interesting and sometimes fun. The OBD1 Motronic system is over engineered with to many unknown variables in the computer code that when focused on a performance application it becomes unpredictable.



I decided to start focusing on standalone EFI systems, but some of the initial costs of name brand systems were prohibitive for my personal budget.



Then I stumbled across a standalone EFI system that is completely DIY, opensource, and uses a readily available controller known as the Arduino. Specifically an Arduino Mega2560. The system is called Speeduino. It uses TunerStudioMS software (same as Megasquirt) and best of all the price is amazingly easy to handle coming in at around $160 for the EFI board and $50 for a genuine Arduino Mega 2560 ($20 for knockoff's).


The EFI board has a built in MAP sensor capable of up to 21psi of boost, and the tuning can either be Speed Density algorithm (RPM vs MAP) or Alpha-N (RPM vs Throttle sensor) tuners choice. For the boosted application Speed Density is the wiser choice.



https://image.ibb.co/cJis7n/20905368...75386112_n.jpg


Speeduino runs in 4 channels, it has four ignition logic level (+5v) outputs and 4 injector driver outputs. The unit can drive injectors directly, ignition coils need an external coil driver to convert the +5v logic out into a high load 12v ground to coil.



With only 4 channels available it means a V8 would be run in waste spark and semi-batch fire injection.



Looking at my BMW shortblock before the heads were bolted on we can see the paired cylinders (Cyls 1-4 bank 1 on the left, cyl's 5-8 bank 2 on the right)


https://preview.ibb.co/kNTg4b/2017_12_03_12_27_20.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/mYWZPb/2017_12_03_12_27_33.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/dTBCAG/2017_12_03_12_27_50.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/iWReqG/2017_12_03_12_28_06.jpg


https://image.ibb.co/cJis7n/20905368...75386112_n.jpg


Paired cylinders: 1 & 6, 2 & 8, 3 & 5, 4 & 7.
When one cylinder is on it's compression stroke the other is on it's exhaust stroke.



The Speeduino fires it's four channels sequentially 1 thru 4 so it's up the installer to wire the channels to the firing order of the engine. This BMW M62's firing order is 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2.

The EFI would get wired:


Channel 1 - Cyl's 1 & 6
Channel 2 - Cyl's 3 & 5
Channel 3 - Cyl's 4 & 7
Channel 4 - Cyl's 2 & 8


I've got the system installed in a car that has a similar engine platform as this build, a 1995 BMW 540i with an M60B40 4.0L V8. On this one I opt'd to run waste spark coils and ignition leads instead of individual coil on plug.



https://preview.ibb.co/bRz3Qx/2018_02_28_20_12_27.jpg


Speeduino allows the tuner to program in the engines native sensors, the coolant, Intake air temp, crank & cam sensors, TPS can all be original to the car/engine. You also program the EFI to recognize the engines crank reluctor pulses. In the case of this BMW it's a 60 tooth wheel, minus 2 teeth with a 60 advance missing tooth offset.



The software has some cool built in tools that will automatically build a base VE map to get the engine running, then once it is running the software will make live changes to the map based on wideband 02 input. The system is pretty slick.


https://preview.ibb.co/eTTW07/VE_map.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/da5QtS/VE_analyze.jpg


There is even an online tool that can make you your ignition timing map based on engine specifics.


https://preview.ibb.co/finunn/Ignition.jpg


here's a short video I made of the first fire-up and test drive after install in the previously mentioned car:



Mykk 06-03-2018 04:57 PM

Another thing I've been playing around with is a digital dash using a RaspberryPi that communicates with the Speeduino for live engine data monitoring.



https://preview.ibb.co/nw8cVd/20180514_205857.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/bPQrqd/20180514_212000.jpg


My standard gauges:


https://preview.ibb.co/fmxFGJ/20180514_190118.jpg


I also quickly threw together a more Hot Rod looking digital dash too:


https://preview.ibb.co/kg7RVy/20180603_145352.jpg


The raspberrypi can also utilize a gps sensor and a gauge for speedometer could be added, as well as a fuel level sender and oil pressure.

39 master 06-03-2018 07:10 PM

T build
 
Very impressive Mykk. Where are you located? Would like to know more about the Raspberry Pi dashboard. Can it be hooked to the ALDL on an OBD II car and display a full dash? Thanks, and keep us updated please.

jaxx22 06-03-2018 07:44 PM

That is some kind of KOOL I would love to have that type of setup for the bucket I'm building - I am not 6-1 but I built my own body ( scaled off of a 22 dodge) to fit me - Glass over a tube skelaton so I could make it a bit longer than normal - Pics on my profile - Keep us posted - I really like it - jaxx

Mykk 06-04-2018 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 39 master (Post 4580737)
Very impressive Mykk. Where are you located? Would like to know more about the Raspberry Pi dashboard. Can it be hooked to the ALDL on an OBD II car and display a full dash? Thanks, and keep us updated please.

I'm in the middle of Arizona. There are several in dash screen units to monitor obdII available on the market, no need to make one so rough around the edges and DIY unless you wanted to. But if one were wanting to build one from scratch like this to monitor obdII live stream data then yes it's completely possible.

OneMoreTime 06-04-2018 02:25 PM

Always good to see projects like this. Of course the electronics are way over my pay grade..

I would suggest you order a set of 32 rails for the chassis..makes life a bunch easier on that part. I am building my body from scratch from all metal and that is all the adventure I need right now..

Sam

Mykk 06-09-2018 09:45 AM

I've found, online, the frame I want use for the build. Just need to save my spare pennies to place the order.



https://preview.ibb.co/dNQnyT/Frame.jpg


I figured the unique, dare I say futuristic, look of the frame would compliment the drivetrain. I like the drop section for the body to retain some more foot space without channeling the body. The builder says he's already got one with a drop tube to for the T front suspension and leaf.



Ultimately the deciding factor will be what is available at the time of purchase, but I've really got my heart set on this one.



Although I still very much plan to use the jaguar rear end I need to investigate it's limitations and pitfalls, like at what power levels does it decide to peace out and what gearing ratios are available so I can use those oversized 32 x 17.5x15 Mickeys

Bamamav 06-09-2018 08:18 PM

I don't think I would try to run a IRS Jag with a I beam or tube axle front. Although it was done it the 70's, I don't think it would handle too good. A Ford 9" or 8.8" would be a better choice IMHO. IFS and IRS look funky on fenderless cars.

timothale 06-09-2018 08:20 PM

jag irs
 
search T bucket plans CCR has chassis plans including prints to install a Jag IRS The Jag uses a Salsberry gearset, euro version of a dana 44 there is info on how to use US dana 44 parts. We put a XJ6 irs in my son's 22 Dodge lakester. If you are serious I have a lot of info on how to and how not to,

timothale 06-09-2018 08:25 PM

Jag ifs
 
k&k custom crossmembers in Australia do the Jag pieces in their IFS BUT they haven't answered my E mails.

rip-tide 06-10-2018 07:30 AM

Interesting build I'll be watching as it goes...

pep

Mykk 06-10-2018 07:37 AM

I am serious about the jag rear, I mean... c'mon how cool is this?!


https://i2.wp.com/www.tbucketplans.c...pg?w=750&ssl=1

Mykk 06-10-2018 07:42 AM

Still putting the "horse" together. Modified the supercharger to bolt down on the adapters. Re-timed the cams for a more boost friendly 110 ICL & 112 LSA.



https://preview.ibb.co/dyP4v8/2018_06_09_19_04_25.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/kMK4v8/2018_06_09_19_09_32.jpg

Mykk 06-16-2018 08:05 PM

https://preview.ibb.co/dRXiLJ/2018_06_16_16_31_05.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/evJZSy/2018_06_16_16_32_13.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/jeasEd/2018_06_16_16_32_51.jpg

Mykk 06-30-2018 07:51 AM

Nitrous...'cause why not.

https://preview.ibb.co/bJuVcJ/2018_06_29_18_40_16.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/mVsYxJ/2018_06_29_19_25_19.jpg

Mykk 07-13-2018 06:13 AM

Started fishing the transmission & driveline from the donor car. Going to utilize as many pieces as I can from the mid 90's BMW.

https://preview.ibb.co/g3Ba2T/2018_07_11_20_01_01.jpg

https://preview.ibb.co/d4UpU8/2018_07_12_10_12_29.jpg

I don't think I can use much but even having the transmission, clutch and driveshaft I feel like I've got most of the T-bucket project already...minus the T.

OneMoreTime 07-13-2018 10:29 AM

Grab lots of bits and pieces like harness and other parts for the parts bin. All the little pieces mount up. Ask me how I know..

Sam

Mykk 07-28-2018 08:44 PM

Jag rear end acquired, can anyone help with ID? rough measurement from hub to hub is 60"


https://preview.ibb.co/i39368/2018_07_28_17_06_09.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/nDS6R8/2018_07_28_17_00_53.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/cYaFKT/2018_07_28_17_00_18.jpg

fiftyv8 07-28-2018 09:48 PM

5 Attachment(s)
Attachment 433465

Attachment 433467

Attachment 433469

Attachment 433471

Attachment 433473I like your choice of using the Jag IRS in your build.
They are capable of handling quite a lot of HP.
I have attached several pages of a document that will help ID your diff.
There are numerous little changes that were mad to these rear ends over the life time of them being produced.

Being that you seem to be keen to do things right, may I suggest that you consider the following modification to your Jag diff build.
I will attach in my next post the last page of the current ID pages and a pic of such a modified diff.

The mod is to use the outer hubs and brakes of a later model Jag, I believe the model is called an XJ40.
This mod offer you clear space for your exhaust to pass thru as the disc brake rotors are removed to the outer hub.
It also offers you a much better park brake arrangement.
All you do is machine up a spacer in say aluminum the thickness of the disc brake flange that you are removing.
The only other mod is a slight amount of reaming to adapt the older hub shaft and bearings to the new XJ40 hub.

May I suggest that while I like the engine you are using and the frame you have chosen, but I feel a lot of your effort maybe wasted putting it into a T bucket body.
They look great and turn heads but....
Your call, but I see other T choices as more functional and since this looks to be a build that has a great capacity to be driven any where, comfort comes to mind.
I feel you could be investing your time and money into a body that will provide you with a greater capacity to recover your costs and be more drivable all year round.

Just my 2 cents worth and take it as just another opinion to consider.
Keep up the good work.

fiftyv8 07-28-2018 09:58 PM

5 Attachment(s)
AS PROMISED HERE IS THE LAST PAGE AND PIC OF THE MODIFED JAG IRS I MENTIONED.

There are two main styles of rear cross member to mount the diff as shown in the attached pic's
Generally for a Model T the single center over the top style would be commonly used.

techinspector1 07-28-2018 11:23 PM

Great info, thanks.

Mykk 07-29-2018 07:46 AM

fiftyv8, thank you dearly for the time and resources posted above. That is some great info.

timothale 07-29-2018 08:26 AM

torsional rigidity ?
 
how much twist with out a top and bottom member. can that frame take with suspension movement. ? ?

timothale 07-29-2018 08:39 AM

Jag X member.
 
Snow white ltd. sells jak kits and has more info on their website. We used the CCR plans for my son's 22 Dodge lakester. The CCr plans move the coil over top attachment inboard to soften the ride using the jag sedan components but the rear is still a little stiff. I don't know if it is the Snow white crossmember but one of the kits I have seen has slotted attachments so you can make adjustments.

here's a link to the K & K front jag
http://www.barryslc.com.au/gallery.a...action=display

fiftyv8 07-29-2018 09:08 AM

No problem, I believe you have the passion and resourcefulness to build a really decent hot rod and I am glad to help you along and hopefully inspire you to aim high...

Mykk 07-31-2018 08:29 PM

Speedway Motors '23 standard T body has arrived:


https://preview.ibb.co/in9YBK/2018_07_31_18_20_17.jpg

timothale 07-31-2018 09:08 PM

Wooding the Glass.
 
1 Attachment(s)
I Found My 16 T bucket body on a neighbor's ranch in 1951. It still had a lot of the original wood. door hinges and latch, I added3/4 steel tube that I cut a lot of slits to shape around the top Outside of the body to replace the weathered wood., then gas welded it. The last 3 builds I channeled the body over the frame. It makes it a little tight inside but a T has to look "right. REAL HOTRODS are channeled

timothale 07-31-2018 09:14 PM

Wooding the Glass.
 
I bought a set of Mel Miller's plans and re-wooded a T touring body. A lot of time on a bandsaw cutting oak scrap pieces I got from a stairway shop. then using upholstery tacks like the original factory did. Today most guys don't do the mortise and tennon joints , but use steel L brackets, screws and glass it together, a lot of tips on the T bucket sites , Like use a few dabs of molding clay between the wood and your body so when the glass cures it won't shrink and shadow thru your body. here's a link to someone else who has T wood plans. I don't know anything about them... from the Ford Barn website
Contact Leon Parker, he sells full sized wood plans for the Model T, has all plans for the open cars.

Leon Parker at [email protected] ph 270-527-5843 , has rewooding plans 1914-1927.

Mykk 08-24-2018 07:34 AM

Collecting parts:


https://preview.ibb.co/bObsD9/2018_08_12_12_29_26.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/mPFmAz/2018_08_21_18_56_04.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/c2WPJK/2018_08_16_16_29_59.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/nbJ9fz/2018_08_21_17_35_45.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/dX7BTK/2018_08_22_16_38_17.jpg

Mykk 08-24-2018 06:41 PM

Using the information provided previously regarding jaguar differentials I came to conclusion that mine is from the mid 70's era. I ordered rear rotors for a '75 XJ6. The rotors have a square bolt pattern, the flanges on the axle are not square pattern. Did I miss something, does anyone have any idea what application to order from to get correct rotors? Thank you!


https://preview.ibb.co/iYcz3U/20180824_110838.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/fJduJU/20180824_111842.jpg

fiftyv8 08-24-2018 07:03 PM

I have no idea that will assist you with respect to your disc bolt pattern, but can say that there are many small variations and minor changes thru the years of Jag IRS design.

You could possibly have been out 1 year or somebody before you has made a change previously.
It can be really hard to know.
My buddy is into them much more than me and he is still being surprised by discoveries he has made playing with them.

We wont use the inboard disc brake system any more now that we know that modification I showed earlier fits and works, it is a much better assembly...

Mykk 09-09-2018 06:34 PM

Slowly putting things together:


https://image.ibb.co/mbkAcp/20180824_125625.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/fvFhTU/2018_08_27_16_48_42.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/mBLuNz/2018_09_01_17_49_28.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/eL4zpe/2018_09_01_17_50_10.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/i2Xihz/2018_09_01_16_00_23.jpg



https://preview.ibb.co/hyZtUp/2018_09_07_12_07_44.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/cD6LAU/2018_09_08_09_19_59.jpg


https://preview.ibb.co/k45vUp/2018_09_09_07_57_13.jpg


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