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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2015, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Belgian View Post
..... it looks like the entire front axle was demounted and fitted on again completely backwards. so if i could take it out, spin it 180 degrees and put it back in, it would be working normal. but then the steering wheel connection would be at the wrong side.

....i'll try to take some pictures later this week.
So it's a straight axle and something has been messed with for sure. I wonder if the axle wasn't perhaps "borrowed" from some country nearby to the OP where they drive on the wrong side of the road (or was original to the truck but an export-to-UK version), and reversed to put the steering on the left. A mystery for sure, will be interesting to see pics.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2015, 10:52 AM
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If the axle was pulled and reversed, that would certainly create huge issues with Ackerman angles, and the problems the truck has. I'd bet if it's reversed that someone wanted to drop it as low as possible, and reversed it for more pan clearance for the tie rod. Turning it back correctly will fix the steering, but might need to also be raised if clearance becomes an issue.
Since the steering is in the wrong place, it must have also gotten a column and steering box swap, as originally that axle was not cross steer, and most likely they made it cross steer when they did the axle reversing. So now returning the axle to normal location will require either returning to normal steering, or moving column, steering box, and making it cross steer again, but behind the axle.
All this isn't really hard to do, but it will require the truck's height to go up to clear not only the tie rod, but a cross steer drag link also! And it will need to go up quite a ways!
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:10 PM
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well i'ts an all american truck for sure. i did the research on the chassis number and it was exported to Belgium last year.

as some of you suggest, the truck is indeed lowered by removing a few blades of the springs, wich causes some suspension troubles as wel

but the main part is: i was able to shoot a few pictures.
a few when just facing forward and a few when going left and right.

The Belgian
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2015, 10:14 PM
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More pictures.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2015, 10:21 PM
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As the saying goes, "pictures tell a thousand words!! It is not just a reversed straight axle, but a stock straight axle that someone has done a poor job of adding rack and pinion steering to! Because they put the rack on with arms pointing down at each end, the toe in changes with any bump, creating dangerous angles on the front tires! If you're turning, and hit a bump it's even worse!
I'd remove that rack and pinion, and get a regular steering box to either return it to stock, or at least set the box up to cross steer behind the axle. Making sure the drag link is parallel with the axle and tie rod. You will of course also need to swap the axle around, and return the tie rod to it once the arms are pointed back as the factory did it.
Shame someone did such a horrible job of engineering it, and then shipped it overseas. Unless it was done after it got there. Either way it's dangerous, and needs to be fixed.
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Old 06-16-2015, 10:29 PM
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Yep, what a mess. But, the good part is it's super easy to fix!

Brian
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2015, 10:52 AM
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Wow, I wasn't expecting that. The mentioned ackerman problem could be improved by snugging the rack up close to the axle better, but as noted above that is a mess that is dangerous at anything over 40mph due to bump steer...at least! Yep you'll need to either convert it back to a tie-rod/drag link deal, or do the full conversion to IFS.

In the seventies there was a V8 Vega done gasser-style in L.A. that had a rack-and-pinion on a straight axle...they actually attached the rack to the axle then used a flex steering shaft up to the frame and he said it was very stable. That may be the only way to use a R&P on a straight axle (that encounters any suspension travel at all) but I wouldn't do that either.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2015, 11:44 AM
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Why in the world would the front end need to be cut off???????

It looks all stock with simply a rack and pinon mounted to the frame. Remove the rack and put a steering box back in and wham, problem solved. Of course swap the axle (or maybe just the spindles) around to the correct sides too.

But this really isn't a big deal. A torch isn't a must and certainly not a plasma (never owned one) a friggin die grinder with a cut off disc would remove that rack and pinion bracket just fine. You may go through a pile of discs and spend all day but it would do it.

There is probably no modification what so ever to where the stock steering box bolted, just swap the axle around, remove the rack and put the stock box back in.

Brian
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Old 06-17-2015, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kso View Post
Wow, I wasn't expecting that. The mentioned ackerman problem could be improved by snugging the rack up close to the axle better, but as noted above that is a mess that is dangerous at anything over 40mph due to bump steer...at least! Yep you'll need to either convert it back to a tie-rod/drag link deal, or do the full conversion to IFS.

In the seventies there was a V8 Vega done gasser-style in L.A. that had a rack-and-pinion on a straight axle...they actually attached the rack to the axle then used a flex steering shaft up to the frame and he said it was very stable. That may be the only way to use a R&P on a straight axle (that encounters any suspension travel at all) but I wouldn't do that either.
Moving the rack fore or aft has nothing to do with the ackerman angle. The location of the tie rod end pivots are what makes the ackerman angle.

Brian
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Moving the rack fore or aft has nothing to do with the ackerman angle. The location of the tie rod end pivots are what makes the ackerman angle.

Brian
But I read it on the internet...

(no, just kidding)

This stuck me enough, that for lack of being able to explain it I made a paper doll (and please bear with me). Here is a steering set, seen from above, with the rack in close to the axle such as is done OEM:



Here is the same deal, steered to the right. As you can see, angles look more-or-less OK (this is not precise).



Now here is the same steering set with the rack moved forward, and again straight:



And finally the same deal, steered. The outside wheel is turned considerably more than the inside, causing all kinds of tire scrub (effectively a reverse ackermann). The only difference is the rack location, front-to-back.



Experience w/ drag chassis where the steering rack is moved forward to get ahead of the engine crank pulley is how I would be familiar with this. (When in doubt, make a paper dolly...)

(edit) It follows that for a rack mounted behind the axle c/l, you'd want some distance then...imagine last pic w/ the rear of the vehicle toward the top instead of the front, and all would be OK) but it appears to me the OP's is front-steer.

Last edited by kso; 06-17-2015 at 02:09 PM.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:34 PM
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This is the ackerman angle, it doesn't matter where the rack is, the pivots at the tie rod end is what creates the angle.
The tie rod pivots are all the way out making that line straight from the tie rod end through the king pins to the center of the rear axle. THIS is the ackerman angle.



Ok, that is the "ackerman angle" I was taught, no, not on the net, more like 20 years before the net existed, this is the "ackerman angle". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackerm...ering_geometry

Moving the rack for or aft "tricks" this angle I guess. I certainly didn't know this, that's more complicated than this bodyman brain can handle without sitting and reading about it 27 times over and over.

Interesting, very interesting, thanks.

Brian

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2015, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Old trucks like this either need a new chassis or cut the front frame rails off just past the cab and weld in a new front frame from a modern car or truck that has proper suspension components and engine mounts available either use or new.

I dont want to say from what to what as your car is your choice and its a lot of work. Getting it back to stock will be better than you have now but really weak and not going to handle take a big brake setup or a big engine setup. You can solve all your problems with one big cut and weld project from a newer truck.

Picking the right swap parts will be the key to getting what your looking for correct and properly setup. Big block chevy to LS engine or late model lincoln with a mod motor its up to your needs but this is one thing i would look into before i did any work to what is left behind.

If you want a slammed to the ground fast truck the old i beam is not going to work. As far as original value goes with trucks it more about resale value and looks. As the actual restored value is far less than a done lowered big motor truck. with some great paint and upgraded interior.

Hope this helps
Yeah, we are all different. I just can't grasp the need to do frame clips and all that unless you really plan on using the truck differently than I ever would. I have ran lowered I beams, pulled trailers, driven them thousand of miles, drag raced what ever with them. I drive every day with 1.5 inch wide drum brakes, every single day. Depending on what is going to be done sure, but man it certainly isn't a "must".

Brian
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2015, 04:16 PM
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Moving the rack for or aft "tricks" this angle I guess. I certainly didn't know this, that's more complicated than this bodyman brain can handle without sitting and reading about it 27 times over and over.

Interesting, very interesting, thanks.
This is what I was talking about in post #6. Too far forward, or too far back will cause it. The first time I ran into it was putting Crown Vic spindles on a Mustang front end for a circle track car. I had to shorten the steering arms to make it work. I recently had to shorten the steering arms on a 76 Camaro rack conversion.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-18-2015, 10:32 AM
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besides the major issue of the rack being on the front side, and how it affects Ackerman Angles. The rack has the tie rods mounted at two angles. It's not in line with the steering arms front to back, or up and down. Additionally, the rack being used on an I beam axle isn't new, but usually they are mounted to the axle, so they travel with it, which eliminates the issues of toe in or out, as the axle moves up and down. Having the rack on the frame instead of the axle means the tie rods of the rack need to be at an angle that's slightly down as the truck sits static, and thus compressing the suspension moves them level. Still not a perfect scenario, as mounted to the axle the up/down movement of suspension wont change tie rod angles and toe in.
I'm with Brian on the idea of stripping the R&P off, turning the axle around, and simply using either the stock steering box, or a newer box. Going to a stock box will require a stock column also. Going to a new box might allow the existing column to remain, and attach to the new box. Maybe save some time and money, but would require a little simple fab work.
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:02 PM
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Turn a -ve into a +ve here and see this as a great opportunity to select an after market IFS system that will improve what you have.
I have a 59 F100 and used a Dodge Dakota IFS kit setup which I am very happy with and I am sure with a little research you to could find something offered that works well in your model Chevy.

What you currently have is crap and dangerous, so deal with it and fixing it asap...
Good luck with your choice.

Last edited by fiftyv8; 07-14-2015 at 09:03 PM. Reason: grammar
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