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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2008, 11:46 AM
 
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Someone with fuzzy morals might not have a problem with vin tag switching, but someone who has ethics and integrity will do the right thing, according to the law.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-11-2008, 11:47 AM
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If i were you i'd just check into getting an assembled title. If you're lucky and have a friend or 2 in law enforcement then you can ask them to sign the papers you need. I know in michigan you need to get a officer to check all your stuff out and make sure the lights work and all the nick nacks work when you're done, then you bring it to secretary of state and after you pay your stupid taxes they'll send you a assemble title. The only problem with that is it doesn't say the year truck and all that so you might have a problem if you ever decide to sell it.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2008, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman2333
Someone with fuzzy morals might not have a problem with vin tag switching, but someone who has ethics and integrity will do the right thing, according to the law.

Bluesman, I see you are from Vegas. Then you should know here in Nevada untill verry recently, by the letter of the law if you have a vehicle without a Title, you are rerquired to turn it to the Sherrif, where it will be comfiscated for scrap. The vehicle can never be retitled and can not be sold. I just lost two cars to this, and we will be going to court over it. I lost my 49 Ford with hundreds of hours of work invested. I did have a Bill of Sale, but not a title. And I lost resently purchased 69 Torino with a flawless body, that was still awaiting a title from Arizona. Sorry I have no respect for a law that callus or that stupid. The law was obvously ment to stop the increasing car theft problem in Vegas, intended to make it inposible to legaly profit from it. Wake up call, a thief is not going to care about such a law no more than they did about the law that said they couldn't steal the car in the first place. Such laws can only come to hurt the honest. Interestingly from this same town, that just scrapped these two cars on me, about two Mayors ago, I similarly obtained a car with only a piece of paper from that Mayor, and no title.

No when a Laws only answer is to destroy or conficate, it is the law that is inmoral. And it is our duty to challenge that law. We are not surfs or subjects. "We Are The People"

Now I would also like to point out that the laws are verry diferent state to state. And what is legal in one state is or may be illegal in another. But even in the State of Nevada you can legaly change a Vin tag. I just went through this with a Doctor friend who I keep teasing that we are jacking up the vin tag and putting a new car up under it, then replacing the vin tag because it has a bulit hole in it. This is a 55 Nomad with the only part that is even remotely salvageble is the roof, and I will be building some serious patch panels for. We bought a 4 door chassis with floor boards fronm a salvage yard in New Mexico, and everything else will be new. However as he is a Doctor, who would risk his licens to practice in Nevada if was involved in any kind of fraud. Changing a vin tag because of stolen vehicles has some serious implications, fraud being one of the lesser (other then in the state of Nevada). It was nothing he was willing to risk. After Doc had a long sit down talk with the Sherrif, we are building this car.

To change the vin tags on a car is not imoral, and certianly not illegal. I would say most states have laws for doing such (just because of us car nuts that want to bring this junk back to life), and a big stack of paper work is usaly going down the right track.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 09:17 AM
 
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I've lived in Las Vegas for about nine months but my car is in Phoenix where I've lived for eight years or so. I don't have a history for Nevada and the only cars I've titled there are newer ones, not classics. My '47 lives in Phx.

I'm sure there is more to the story than just destroying a car if it doesn't have a title, maybe some of what you are saying is urban legend too.

I think universally, if you move a vin tag from one vehicle to another, it's not allowed.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NudeAutoMall
......To change the vin tags on a car is not imoral, and certianly not illegal.........
Totally WRONG! If you don't believe the people on this board just do a google search on swapping vin tags. It is illegal. There are in very few cases exceptions, but in the handful of states where it can be done the rules are very specific on who can do it and the situations where they will allow it are few and far between. Believe me the paperwork involved in obtaining a new title pales in comparison to the mounds of paperwork involved in swapping a vin number legally.

As a side note......

The state of Nevada does have procedures to re-title a vehicle. If it was not previously titled in Nevada then all that is necessary is to obtain a duplicate from the state where it was last titled. Nevada DMV web site states: "If your vehicle is titled in another state, you must obtain a duplicate from that state."

Every state has procedures to title vehicles with no title, just do the paperwork and follow the rules and you can easily do it legally.

Last edited by Centerline; 07-13-2008 at 12:04 PM.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 12:51 PM
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good god......
http://www.broadwaytitle.com/
throw 'em some bucks and git 'er done!


you guys and your "moral values"...
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Centerline
Totally WRONG! If you don't believe the people on this board just do a google search on swapping vin tags. It is illegal.
I would suggest that you not believe ANYONE from this board but verify by reading the law for yourself. I'm sorry to sound like a broken record on this (does anyone even know what a 'broken record' is anymore?), but by my reading it is illegal to tamper with VIN tags with the INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD. It's the fraud part that is illegal. Removing and replacing VIN tags to perform a legitimate repair is completely legal and is allowed under federal law 18 U.S.C. 511:

http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/511.html

That section of the code specifically says (emphasis added):

a) A person who -

(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or

(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal
or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.

(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a
removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person
specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person
knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are -

(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;


(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters
a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the
Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner
of the motor vehicle
,


So there you have it. 18USC511 does not apply for legitimate repair or if the removal or alteration is performed by the owner.

The problem is that state laws do not necessarily follow the feds and from a practical standpoint most state DMVs could not care less about your car. If you ask them about VIN tags they will assume you are guilty and (as others here have posted in the past) you can spend thousands of dollars in legal fees to be ultimately proven right. In your case the easiest thing would be to get a constructed vehicle title assigned by the DMV if such a thing is allowed in your state.

Last edited by joe_padavano; 07-13-2008 at 04:01 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 05:27 PM
 
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I'm thinking legitimate repair and swapping major assemblies with vin switching are two different things. Also, the State Drones would consider it fraud and make you prove otherwise. You say it's THIS vin? well look here, I say it's THAT vin. See you in criminal court.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 05:49 PM
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"...... verify by reading the law for yourself......"

AND reading it completly and not just what you want to hear.

Reading what you quote carefully does allow an owner to REMOVE a vin tag in order to
“……. restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;….”

In other words if the VIN tag is attached to say a door, door pillar etc that becomes damaged and needs replaced.

Removing a VIN tag from one vehicle and placing it on another vehicle would fall under 18USC511A

“….. (a) Whoever affixes to a motor vehicle a theft prevention decal or other device, or a replica thereof, unless authorized to do so pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be punished by a fine not to exceed $1,000……”

As has been pointed out “….The problem is that state laws do not necessarily follow the feds…..” In most cases they are more stringent (bigger fines ).

Bottom line no matter how you twist it changing VINs from one vehicle to another is illegal and all the jail house lawyers theory won’t change that. Are there ways around it to get a title….sure some have been brought up in this thread. If you get caught will the car be confiscated and you end up with a healthy fine…..oh yeah.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 05:59 PM
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Just to go back to the original post.

".....I looked on the frame for a number but again couldn't come up with one...." Just because you couldn;t find one doesn't mean it'e not there. My the case of my 37 Dodge PU, I searched the entire frame for the number and couldn;t find one either. I ended up buying a shop manual and once I knew where to look sure enough it WAS there. When I took it in for the DMV inspection the nice officer happened to have a book which showed him where to look too (big surprise).

If you can locate a frame number chances are you will be able to to title the truck LEAGLLY.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2008, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
.........So there you have it. 18USC511 does not apply for legitimate repair or if the removal or alteration is performed by the owner. .....
I believe we've had this discussion before and you have your interpretation of the law and I have mine.

Removing and replacing a vin tag for a legitimate repair is legal... BUT removing the vin tag from one vehicle and using it to title another is fraud no matter how you look at it. Of course if someone wants to take that chance that's their choice. Some have and have gotten away with it. IMHO its much easier to follow the DMV's rules and procedures than to take a chance on winding up in jail. THATS WHY EACH STATE HAS PROCEDURES TO TITLE ASSEMBLED VEHICLES.
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