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-   -   Trying to understand filler work (https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/trying-understand-filler-work-277514.html)

glhx 02-28-2014 03:30 PM

At first I wanted to do this on top of the epoxy. In my inexperience I went through to metal over and over and over again. So I sprayed the metal with more epoxy as opposed to putting the filler direct to the metal. My shop is 75 miles away from my house now (it wasn't when i started this) so I go back every 2 weeks for a day. Trying to get the filler work done on the epoxy working like this has taken forever because it's recommended by spi to let the epoxy cure for 24 hours. So I literally was going back and filling.....sanding....spraying.
Then 2 weeks later filling....sanding....spraying. I always had to wAit to do every little step. I think now it's time to go direct to metal with the filler. It's not feasible at my level with the amount of time I have and the amount of time it takes to let the epoxy to cure, to wait every time I hit a metal spot. It's really holding up the project. You guys put it on the metal for years....can I still go that route and seal it up with epoxy before the high build? Do I need to hit the metal with 40 or can I hit it with 80?

I'm block sanding all other parts of the car already ....but these two large pots are giving me trouble.. I'm almost done with the first round at 180 block sanding.

deadbodyman 02-28-2014 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitchman (Post 2156970)
Working body panels is an art, no doubt about it. The best advise I received came from the fellow who taught me to work with lead and Bondo in 1973 (H.S. auto shop). He said as soon as you find there is a need to add filler to a panel, you become a sculptor. Once you realize that, you will also need to realize that you are no longer shaping the panel, you are sculpting the fill.

In other words, once you spread fill, forget the panel until you are happy with the shape of the fill, or when you *JUST* see the panel again as it's high spots poke through. At that point you have a decision to make. Either stop or add fill to the low spots and sculpt some more.

Most of the trick to sculpting anything is knowing when to stop removing material.

That's true just about everyone over sands. hardly anyone under sands.
I look at it like Im hand Planing a board ,knocking down the high spots until its straight...One of the guys that taught me always said : when in doubt....add more bondo then you'll know its high

deadbodyman 03-01-2014 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glhx (Post 2156370)
I've been using the 8" and the 16" dura block because it covers the whole dent.
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2833/1...a0a1964b_z.jpgimage by -glhxturbo-

The 16" seems to flex a lot in the middle and dig into the dent sort of sticking up on the ends so I stopped using it.............but Im not sure. I was told to hold it in the middle and apply light pressure. I think I'll try to use the paper to create the contour for the flatter panel. It does have some contour to it.

I stopped using the flex block because it was too small and following the wave. That particular pattern has several different contours. The flex block has been good in some areas. Might have to get more creative

I'll put a skim coat on it and as soon as I see it break metal I'll stop there
Probably need to change the paper more often as well

I've also had problems with creasing the paper with the flexible blocks.

I suspected You were using dura blocks, theres your problem right there. You need a stiff aluminum backed board file to do filler work..about 8" not the full size one. Those dura blocks are great but will flex slightly they're more for primer blocking and dings but they DO have their place. I have all of them too with the exception of that super long one ,I never saw a need for that one.

glhx 03-01-2014 08:31 AM

That makes sense now that you say it. Those blocks were flexing on me but I thought it was me not knowing how to use it. It was working well for the blocking and the small stuff.

Not nearly as well for the larger one. It pushed down in the middle and rode up on the ends.....even with the 8" and more so with the 16"

Can you send me a link of where to get the file your talking about. I looked online and saw a lot of wood files. And does it still have the stick on sand paper.

I have the rolled stuff for the dura blocks and the regular large square sheets. I would like to get this stuff ASAP.

I looked over the videos brian recommended and feel more confident with it.

deadbodyman 03-01-2014 08:55 AM

I actually got a good one at HF and was surprised at how well it worked its exactly like My expensive (name brand) one They have a wood handle screwed to an aluminum backer under 10 bucks if I remember right. but any place that sells auto paint would carry them...but expect to shell out 20-30.00 for name brand.
also I believe your pulling the filler too tight and not leaving enough on so try slobbering it on just to get it on there and with one pass level it then one pass in the opposite direction and leave it, dont try to get it all pretty ,let the sanding do that. If you want the filler to sand a little easier you can mix some of the poly putty with the filler. metal glaze or EZ sand use your blower (full blast) to clean out the sand paper as it clogs and get more life out of it.
doing filler work was the hardest thing for me to learn too so don't feel too bad ,it'll come to you...
DONT BE AFRAID to grind it all out and start over again now that your armed with some new ammo...

glhx 03-01-2014 09:12 AM

When mixing hardener for putty and filler......the hardener will work for both?

MARTINSR 03-01-2014 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadbodyman (Post 2159578)
I suspected You were using dura blocks, theres your problem right there. You need a stiff aluminum backed board file to do filler work..about 8" not the full size one. Those dura blocks are great but will flex slightly they're more for primer blocking and dings but they DO have their place. I have all of them too with the exception of that super long one ,I never saw a need for that one.

Good catch Mike, yep the whole bendable block, I don't get it, I just don't get it. There ARE places where it is useful but to get a large panel straight, be it a curved panel or not, a hard block is my choice too.

Brian

MARTINSR 03-01-2014 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glhx (Post 2159874)
When mixing hardener for putty and filler......the hardener will work for both?

If you are around here very long you will see my comment used often.

FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS! You follow what the manufacturer tells you to do with their product, you simply can't go wrong. They spend a LOT of mondy on the development of these products so they will work the best they possibly can so they have what they believe is the best product on the market, for goodness sakes do what THEY tell you to do in the tech sheet for the use of the product! There are lots of these we learn along the way over the years using them where we can bend the rules a little. But until you have years under your belt FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!

Your polyester putty and your filler both came with Hardeners, if they didn't, LETS TALK! :pain:

Brian

MARTINSR 03-01-2014 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glhx (Post 2157946)
At first I wanted to do this on top of the epoxy. In my inexperience I went through to metal over and over and over again. So I sprayed the metal with more epoxy as opposed to putting the filler direct to the metal.

My shop is 75 miles away from my house now (it wasn't when i started this) so I go back every 2 weeks for a day.

Trying to get the filler work done on the epoxy working like this has taken forever because it's recommended by spi to let the epoxy cure for 24 hours. So I literally was going back and filling.....sanding....spraying.
Then 2 weeks later filling....sanding....spraying. I always had to wAit to do every little step. I think now it's time to go direct to metal with the filler. It's not feasible at my level with the amount of time I have and the amount of time it takes to let the epoxy to cure, to wait every time I hit a metal spot. It's really holding up the project. You guys put it on the metal for years....can I still go that route and seal it up with epoxy before the high build? Do I need to hit the metal with 40 or can I hit it with 80?

I'm block sanding all other parts of the car already ....but these two large pots are giving me trouble.. I'm almost done with the first round at 180 block sanding.

HOLY CRAP, that is a hard way to get something done!

If you were really proficient there is no reason you can't do filler work in two applications, one to fill and then the second as a skim coat to finish it. WHAM BAM. Two applications is all you need on 95% of jobs, but this takes some experience. To do what you are doing AND learning, that is a toughie, you have my respect. If you read that "Basics of Basics" for bondo work over and over it may stick in your head when you get there, two applications is the whole basis of the "Basics". Using those guidelines WILL get you there.

Brian

deadbodyman 03-01-2014 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glhx (Post 2159874)
When mixing hardener for putty and filler......the hardener will work for both?

Yes Rage and EZ sand take the same hardener. I cant remember if they are the same blue color because If I remember correctly the rage is yellow so the hardener may not be blue but they are the same and can be switched back and forth...back when I was still fairly new at filler work I would use one color on the first coat and another on the second then another on the third ,kinda like a guide coat it helped take the guess work out of whats high and low...:confused:

deadbodyman 03-01-2014 02:43 PM

Let me try to explain something about the two filler coats ......I cant do it...
Two coats of Filler ? Sure,but its only half way there, its only taken to 80... after that I use two coats of EZ sand so that's 4 coats and taken to 320 before I prime. if your sanding your bondo with anything finer than 80 your really wasting your time.I'll block it out with 80 then polish it off with a quick 180 to smooth out the majority the sharpness of the 80 scratches...The 180 wont straighten filler well, it will straighten the EZ sand putty though , sand that with 180 up to 320 and you'll amaze yourself.

glhx 03-01-2014 03:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This is where I started. It seems to cover really well but probably should go to the edges. I'm definitely taking too much off to start with...... I'm seeing a lot of metal before I stop when I should see very little. All of this should be feathered. I hit this with 36 to shape it.....maybe 80 instead

See how rough it is.....I'm always trying to make it perfect and dragging holes in it because it's setting and I'm still working it

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7413/1...b95c6405_z.jpgimage by -glhxturbo-

deadbodyman 03-01-2014 09:31 PM

You can also try guide coating your bondo and especially your putty I use cheap dollar store black sprayed very very lightly ,more of an overspray type look. this will help you a ton.

Lizer 03-02-2014 12:00 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This thread is painful to read because it brings back many painful memories before I figured it all out, and then it's painful to read because it doesn't need to be this way...the way you're doing. You're making it WAY to hard on yourself.

These guys here have suffered through my problems with me...they helped me...and then they all saw what my car came to be after it all came together. So I want to make a few points...

First of all, the most expensive does not translate to the best. You're paying a premium on that Rage filler, and it's all ending up on the floor. There are cheaper alternatives that are just as good, such as Marson Platinum. And for sandpaper, Indasa is great.

But first thing is first. Probably one of the most valuable lessons I ever learned here, and my filler work got better overnight just because of this. I used to spread filler and say 'I'll just come back out tomorrow and sand it.' Big mistake. What they got me to do here was block the filler down before it sets completely up. This is a FINE LINE...it will still feel tacky, but if it's at just the right spot it will not clog the paper but sand off in big powdery dust. If it clogs, give it a few more minutes; it needs to kick more. If it's too set up, then it will sand off in a fine dust.

The benefit to sanding it off before it completely sets up (big powdery dust) is your cutting FAST, and that's what you want to get it straight and flat. But that's only half of it...the second key is to use a HARD block and FRESH, SHARP paper. The goal is to cut as fast, hard, and straight as possible. I have a 16" 3M hookit block, completely rigid, no flex whatsoever, and uses hookit paper strips. They're expensive, but last a long time and cut real well. The rigid block ensures that there is no give in the block itself.

The next important part is to not actually put any weight on the block. Just let the mechanical action of the sandpaper do all the work. I start my cut with 80 grit, but if it's an ugly spread with lots of crap to remove, I'll start with 40. Then block over the 80 with 180 or 220.

The other area where you can save yourself time is to just guidecoat the filler and block. No sense in priming only to find out you still had low spots. Guide coating the filler will reveal any low spots.

Stop sanding when you start to sand through to the substrate below, and apply another layer of filler. Eventually you'll continue to build up the low spots and then everything will sand flat evenly.

When my body instructor looked at my 67 Mustang for the first time before I did anything to it, he couldn't believe how wavy it was and said I was in for a fun treat. Well today I'm here to tell you that car is about as straight as a razor, and it's sprayed with a very unforgiving, metallic blue with a show clear. I will confess, I used 3-4 coats of Slick Sand on all the panels except the fenders and I think that was ultimately what allowed me to get it so straight.

deadbodyman 03-02-2014 05:46 AM

I remember that ,Lizer was a tough case.If that was me I might have given up but he kept at it and in the end was successful. he would still remember the valuable things that made a big difference for him, things we forget but do without thinking ,like the sanding bondo while soft. So lizer has a lot to say that could make everything come together for you. I use Z-grip at about 30.00 a gal its thicker than Rage but I can soup it up with EZsand and vice versa I can thicken up the EZ putty by adding a touch of filler. You cant thicken rage. or any bondo for that matter so if its too soupy your stuck with it. I like the thicker stuff but its all personal preference, if you run out of Rage you might give the Z-grip a try and see if it suits you better...I couldn't say one way or another what the other fillers are like because I've been using the Z for so long I cant remember them.


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