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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2014, 01:00 AM
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Damn dude. You're literally making this a hundred times more difficult than it needs to be. You were spraying a thick primer with too fine of a tip which is why it was spattering.

The pinholes will fill in if you skim over them with more filler or glazing putty. If you're getting pinholes in the filler it's probably due to how you're mixing the filler with the hardener. I don't mix it but smear it across the mixing board, one direction, then pull it back with my spreader the next direction, pressing down with some force to keep it from getting air mixed in.

You're making mistakes because you're trying to rush things and not doing it right. If you don't have a 1.8 tip to spray 2k primer, then don't spray it; you can see what happens. Besides, it's not a big deal to scuff up the epoxy with a red scotchbrite before spraying the 2k if it's out beyond a week. Going over the entire car would take you less than 10 minutes. You shouldn't be running your epoxy or your 2k either. You could be going to slow, fan is too narrow, pressure is too low, holding gun too close, ...some or all of these. Don't spray anything until you can get a nice consistent pattern about 10" tall on a piece of paper holding the gun about 6" away. I have a roll of masking paper that hangs on my wall and I just constantly unroll it as I need more material to do test spray.

Sand your filler finer than 80. Just use 80 to flatten it, but then finish up with 180 or 220. Some guys even go to 320. This will remove a lot of what you are experiencing. You're just not getting it sanded fine enough. The SPI epoxy has little to no shrinkage, and their 2k primer (if that's what you're using) has minimal shrinkage as well, due to the type of solids used.

All this going back down to metal after you've done all the work is nonsense. If you already have one coat of epoxy on, put a second coat of epoxy on later. Nothing sticks to epoxy like epoxy. At least 2 coats on the metal is ideal as corrosion protection with epoxy is directly correlated to mil build. But I personally wouldn't bother taking filler off if you only have one coat beneath it. That alone is still better than the old way of doing it, which is filler over bare metal. Which I have done on my car as well.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2014, 09:18 AM
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Yeah, for goodness sakes, slow down and do ONE panel at a time!

Brian
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2014, 09:39 AM
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he must be doing something right cause he's getting frustrated. It's always frustrating at first. Keep plugging away and don't settle and you'll be that much better next time.
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:22 PM
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I decided to take it all off for the heck of it to see how it works. I had 4 layers on there with all inconsistent colors meaning some used a lot of hardener and some used the right amount. I was also curious about the boding to the epoxy and how good it is.

The filler was basically welded to the epoxy and the cured epoxy was basically glued to the quarter panel.....the whole thing was more sound that I thought. Which is one of the things I was looking for when I took it all off.

I put 2 good coats of epoxy on there and will be redoing the filler. Probably just one more time.

On another note. This dent is 1/8" deep. Double lined.....on the back side there was a metal plats.....than structure in front of it. Very hard to get to.

A dent this size is Beyoncé my skill level. I have a stud gun but I don't even know where to start with something this big
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:00 PM
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Can you post a few photos of this damage? It's going to be very hard to capture a good photo being it's striped and different colors and textures. So take a number of photos along the side of it from the front and rear getting the camera very close to the surface like shooting a photo out across the ocean from the beach. If you can put a straight edge, a bent straight edge if that makes any sense. If you get a metal yard stick for instance you can bend it on it's flat side to any shape right? So bend it to the shape of the quarter by simply holding it tight at one end away from the dent and then pushing in the other end way over on the other side of the dent and it will form a "straight edge" over the dent.

You can't take too many photos from all different angles so we can see what you are working with.

Brian
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:08 PM
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I should be going back in a couple of days to spread the filler and let the epoxy cure for a while.

Before I spread it I'll hit it with a ruler and get all those pictures posted.

This is all I have on hand. I ground into that with a cutting wheel to strip it quickly. As I went down into the deepest part i gauged it by sight to be 1/8" deep in the middle of that circle. The transition is so smooth I don't even much feel or see a high spot. Just the ones I knocked down in the previous pictures. They were not high at all

The metal to the left is hard the metal to the right of the circle is not as hard but it also doesn't have the fender flare structure. This dent is very soft and circular.....and large. I wish it still had paint on it. It would be easier.
image by -glhxturbo-

The circle seems very flexible and somewhat weak. I've messed with a large dent like that before on my trans am.
A tree fell on it behind the t tops.
I bought a stud puller thinking with the weak flexible metal it would pull right out. I stuck 4 studs in the middle. Pulled it with a slide hammer.......the metal stretched and just pulled those spots. It may have been because I wasn't knocking down the high spots on the out edges. In those trans ams there is a structure brace under there that prevents from hammer dolly work. We ended up taking it to have it done. He put tons of bondo in there.....in the t top area with no roof structure and the frame not tied together.....the bondo popped out.....we took it out completely the other day. It's the size of a small dinner plate and 1/8 thick.
And that's just that area that popped out. There's is equal size still in there. He basically bondo the whole roof. Like the bmw....the transition is smooth and gradual....no real defined high spots.
So I still have that problem on the trans am to deal with......I was just going to put a new roof on it.

Reason I bring it up is because it's the same type of dent. I could almost take that dinner plate bondo and match the dent to the car I'm working on. I have the equipment a to do this stuff and not the skills to do it.

If I mess with that dent with my stud puller and don't know how......I'll make a mess out of it. I already have run into multiple of those. But that's fine.....body work has a steep learning curve

I had a gallon of evercoat rage extreme. I don't need much more filler but I'm almost out. If I run out......will a quart of rage basic be fine For just this one project. I won't need another gallon so it will just sit there.
I do have a whole jar of glazing putty. Would that substitute if I run out? I won't use anywhere near what I have.

I know the hardener goes bad after a year......does the filler have a shelf life. If not ill use it on the next project and buy another gallon.

Last edited by glhx; 03-10-2014 at 04:16 PM.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2014, 05:34 PM
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The hardner goes bad after a year? I have hardner I've been using for several years. And I have filler that is several years old.

I'd get a quart of the Platinum over the Rage, it's a little better priced. Glazing putty goes on very thin and is best for filling pinholes or skim coating panels. You won't get the build out of it you want.

For your dent removal, you don't work a dent out by starting in the center. You start on the outside of the dent and work it out moving in a spiral pattern from the outside to the inside. However it sounds like the metal in that dent is stretched. Metal can be shrinked by heating it with a torch and then rapidly cooling with a wet rag. Now to shrink you would start in the middle of the dent.
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Old 03-10-2014, 07:11 PM
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I wonder if it will pop out on its own when I shrink it. I've done that before and it worked well.

This dent was originally filled in with filler. Maybe the shop that did it either didn't know or.....didn't know.

Or didn't want to take the inside stuff out like the cd changer
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2014, 08:00 PM
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Now that you mention it. I'm pretty sure it's stretched.

I don't care to remove all that stuff to heat it up and try. But I do have 2 nice coats of epoxy on it. If it's too complicated or beyond my skill level at this time I would fill it in. I'm patient but it's my daily driver and I do need it back on the road ASAP. I'd like to get it in black before the humidity hits.

I've been bitten by these dents and never been successful with one

Will get more info and try to figure out exactly what it is
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2014, 11:01 PM
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Man you are working hard, TOOO hard. Get those photos so we can figure it out. And YES MEKP hardener can go bad! They have a date code stamped in the bottom of the tube and you want to get the newest you can.

Brian
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2014, 09:36 AM
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sometimes if a forgotten stretch is on a hood or decklid it's better to just take it down to metal and deal with it (CAREFULLY ON HOODS/DECSKS)cause blocking it in primer will cause you to baby the blocking and you'd be throwing time away anyways. keep the blocking part in mind and how the metal will react to the pressure of a block when deciding whether to leave it or not, and this apart from the obvious high spot it's leaving. If it's surrounded by a bunch of bodylines which will help it hold its ground better that's great, if it's out in a wide open area than run a block on it to see how it reacts when you have primer on it. There's been plenty of times where I said, "no big deal" then once it's in primer I was kicking myself for not dealing with it earlier.
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Old 03-11-2014, 12:03 PM
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When it was filled in with filler they did a good job with all of it. I had no idea it was even there. When I bought the car I looked over it carefully. 3 weeks later I'm seeing bubbles in the trunk surface.

The middle of that is 1/8th deep very smooth transition. No wrinkles or creases. Like someone threw a basket ball at it

-

-

This was prepared by the original repair man......
24 grit direct to metal
-

This is exactly how big it spans. It doesn't go past that area. The rest is flat
image by -glhxturbo-

A feathered skin coat would have finished this. I didn't want filler over the high build. Those metal spots were just barely high. They've been knocked down some since. That's as good a bench description as I can get right now
image by -glhxturbo-




That's the nature of this dent. It went up to the body line and touches it. But the body line has no damage at all. I haven't gotten a chance to get a ruler on that yet. Its basically your smooth gradually dished in dent with shallow high spots. The metal is stretched. It doesn't have that popping oil can sound. I know if I pulled on it. It would want to stay dished in instead of returning to its original spot.

I don't know if any of this helps. Knowing what you know about it so far. What does it look like and how should I start trying to get it back out?

Do those suction cup things actually work? It's almost like if I could get a suction cup on there and knock the highs in at the same time it would come back out
I think it's a little late for paint less dent repair
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2014, 03:17 PM
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it wouldn't hurt to try the suction thing while hitting down the brows. That's actually how you want to work metal. Just doing that will tighten it up a little. Just be sure to get all of the brow with the hope it tightens it up. If that doesn't work to truly fix it you'd have to get to the metal, if that's not an option than just block lightly on it so you don't create more work when it flexes as you block, but yeah, doing the suction cup thing will do something in your favor so give it a try.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2014, 03:54 PM
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I'm going to try the suction cup route. Maybe fill in the texture with filler to get it smooth enough to grip to.

Then put a cloth on the high spots to protect the epoxy from hammering the highs..... It's a perfect suction cup dent.

Besides the epoxy.....I'm back to the metal. I ground all the filler out

Last edited by glhx; 03-11-2014 at 04:13 PM.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 03-13-2014, 10:31 PM
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The higher metal you see around the dent is the "splash wave" and is indeed high. A picking hammer will bring it down with a lot of little hits from where it is now or you could use a stud gun without a stud in it to flash heat and cool with a wet rag to shrink it back where it should be or a torch as well though.

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