Urethane vs Arcylic enamel with hardner - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior> Paint
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:47 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Laurel, De.
Posts: 419
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 213
Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwighty390 View Post
I used Ful-cryl to do the inside of a pickup box one time, and kept what was left to touch up. The touch ups did not dry where I used it without adding the hardener, so some apparently do need it to dry in this lifetime.
Nonsense man, I shot shot so many cars with Nason Ful-cryl doing dealer and rental car work for years it's not even funny.

Nason Ful-cryl and S-W products are the 2 I'm most familiar with. Before Nason we used Centari, no hardener needed in that either, though they did offer a hardener or another step up to a "2000 PAC"

You sure you didn't have Ful-Thane? Because yeah, with no hardener it stays sticky forever.

    Advertisement

Last edited by Hipster_G; 09-10-2019 at 09:54 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Hipster_G For This Useful Post:
John long (09-10-2019)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:56 AM
dwighty390's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Urbandale, IA
Age: 32
Posts: 286
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipster_G View Post
Nonsense man, I shot shot so many cars with Nason Ful-cryl doing dealer and rental car work for years it's not even funny.

Nason Ful-cryl and S-W products are the 2 I'm most familiar with. Before Nason we used Centari, no hardener needed in that either, though they did offer a hardener or another step up to a "2000 PAC"

You sure you didn't have Ful-Thane? Because yeah, with no hardener it stays sticky forever.
*Definitely* Ful-cryl. That's not to say they didn't spit the wrong material into the can backstage though!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:14 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Laurel, De.
Posts: 419
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 213
Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwighty390 View Post
*Definitely* Ful-cryl. That's not to say they didn't spit the wrong material into the can backstage though!
Well that **** does happen. The guy putting it on is going to be more careful about the mixing process. When I mixed my own paint I had half the color matching problems as when the kid at the store mixed it for me. They put him in a truck. He makes deliveries now! lol
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:17 AM
dwighty390's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Urbandale, IA
Age: 32
Posts: 286
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipster_G View Post
Well that **** does happen. The guy putting it on is going to be more careful about the mixing process. When I mixed my own paint I had half the color matching problems as when the kid at the store mixed it for me. They put him in a truck. He makes deliveries now! lol
Between that and how slow another brand dried without the hardener (slower than rustoleum I'd bet!) I just convinced myself that acrylic enamels technically do "need" the hardener for any degree of sanity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:19 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Laurel, De.
Posts: 419
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 213
Thanked 165 Times in 123 Posts
All this talk about acrylic drying without hardener I still wouldn't do it that way as they can be re-coat sensitive. Should you have to re-do a panel for some reason they can ring-out or wrinkle up.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:22 AM
dwighty390's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Urbandale, IA
Age: 32
Posts: 286
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Yes! This all goes back to my wording before: They are INTENDED to be used with hardener, although not REQUIRED.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 04:25 PM
jcclark's Avatar
The Penny Pincher
 

Last journal entry: Hanging Bumpers
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, Ky. U.S.A.
Age: 66
Posts: 1,930
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 31 Times in 27 Posts
I don't know any reason anyone would use an enamel instead of a urethane.
Urethanes are far superior in every way.
Most clear coats over base coats are urethanes, just without color.
They are night and day difference on hardness.
Enamels, even with hardeners stay really soft a long time, urethanes
can buff easy the next day, they harden fast.
I use to buff out enamels with hardeners back in the 1980's,
I would never go back to that with urethanes available now.
I did my boat and trailer with urethane and it's been amazing
how hard it is to scratch or chip. Probably the most durable paint out there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:16 AM
John long's Avatar
Slow but willing learner
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Age: 74
Posts: 4,707
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5,503
Thanked 7,870 Times in 4,072 Posts
I can't argue with that. I have not shot any acrylic in decades. The urethanes are superior for sure.

John
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:46 AM
idrivejunk's Avatar
Grand Prix User
 

Last journal entry: Last look
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NW AR
Age: 53
Posts: 3,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,157
Thanked 4,801 Times in 2,852 Posts
What a confusing read! Acrylic lacquer replaced nitrocellulose lacquer. Acrylic enamel replaced alkyd enamel. Acrylic urethane replaced polyurethane. Lacquer dries by evaporation only, enamel dries by that plus oxidation (and curing, to some degree, if isocyanates are added) and urethane by evaporation plus molecular crosslinking when cured. Lacquer rubs off with thinner. Enamel does too, but takes more rubbing. Meaning both of them can "re-wet". Urethane cannot, it turns to plastic when cured.

In my humble and obsolete opinion, if doing a car... cheap urethane beats enamel with all the bells and whistles dumped in. By a long shot. Thats is not meant to indicate theres no place for enamels. Just not for the exterior of anything I want to keep.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to idrivejunk For This Useful Post:
John long (09-11-2019)
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 06:54 AM
idrivejunk's Avatar
Grand Prix User
 

Last journal entry: Last look
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NW AR
Age: 53
Posts: 3,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,157
Thanked 4,801 Times in 2,852 Posts
One more thing... no amount of filtration is protection from isocyanates. Fresh, supplied breathing air is the only escape, and must be in conjunction with full body and face protection.

Danger is not in standing on a cliff, it is in being unwary there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to idrivejunk For This Useful Post:
Bob37pont (09-12-2019), Hipster_G (09-11-2019)
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:56 AM
dwighty390's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Urbandale, IA
Age: 32
Posts: 286
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Enamels are significantly cheaper and slightly safer for a hobbyist without the fresh air supply. For something that isn't going to be weathered, I see no issue with them. E.g. if you are restoring grandma's steel China cabinet or something, they'd give great results.

The proper masks used properly will work but you do need to keep the air in the booth clean - this is how I have seen most body shops with downdraft evacuation operate. Using the mask in a garage where you are standing in a fog is a huge disaster waiting to happen. I did it for years before finally having a close call and I'll never go back after that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:41 AM
idrivejunk's Avatar
Grand Prix User
 

Last journal entry: Last look
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NW AR
Age: 53
Posts: 3,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,157
Thanked 4,801 Times in 2,852 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwighty390 View Post
Enamels are significantly cheaper and slightly safer for a hobbyist without the fresh air supply. For something that isn't going to be weathered, I see no issue with them. E.g. if you are restoring grandma's steel China cabinet or something, they'd give great results.

The proper masks used properly will work but you do need to keep the air in the booth clean - this is how I have seen most body shops with downdraft evacuation operate. Using the mask in a garage where you are standing in a fog is a huge disaster waiting to happen. I did it for years before finally having a close call and I'll never go back after that.
Your first sentence puts it well. And you make a good point about concentration levels. The fact remains that charcoal filters do fine with dusts and some mists... but little or nothing with vapors.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:49 AM
dwighty390's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Urbandale, IA
Age: 32
Posts: 286
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
Your first sentence puts it well. And you make a good point about concentration levels. The fact remains that charcoal filters do fine with dusts and some mists... but little or nothing with vapors.
How little? The 3M cartridges mentioned before are labeled specifically for vapors/paint. That would be a pretty big misprint from a pretty large company to be sued...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:01 PM
idrivejunk's Avatar
Grand Prix User
 

Last journal entry: Last look
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: NW AR
Age: 53
Posts: 3,787
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,157
Thanked 4,801 Times in 2,852 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwighty390 View Post
How little? The 3M cartridges mentioned before are labeled specifically for vapors/paint. That would be a pretty big misprint from a pretty large company to be sued...
Vapors can contain isocyanates or not, as can the paint. So that can be true. You won't find anywhere that says a 3M halfmask is safe for use around topcoat catalyst / hardener / activator. Its a hard line. Isocyanates mean full body protection and supplied air in any case. Its up to the user to manage their exposure, but the isos have no smell or color, so that is at one's own risk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:13 PM
dwighty390's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Urbandale, IA
Age: 32
Posts: 286
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 40 Times in 36 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
Vapors can contain isocyanates or not, as can the paint. So that can be true. You won't find anywhere that says a 3M halfmask is safe for use around topcoat catalyst / hardener / activator. Its a hard line. Isocyanates mean full body protection and supplied air in any case. Its up to the user to manage their exposure, but the isos have no smell or color, so that is at one's own risk.
You're right, 3M doesn't specifically call out iso's.

Iso's DO have a smell, however.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.