Victor Jr runner openings - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2019, 12:04 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Victor Jr runner openings

Hi fellow gearheads. Finally getting back to my 307. The Victor Jr runner outlets are quite small. I know they do that for port matching/finishing by the builder. My question is, does leaving the manifold ports small help with making a "race only" intake more streetable and torquey, or would opening them up close to the 1205 gasket size of the Sportsman ll heads help all around power? I'm not too worried about low end torque, it won't have much anyway. 3,000-ish stall, 4.10 gear, 28" tires.
And yes I agree a good dual plane would almost undoubtedly work better and planning on trying one after I see how it does. I'm planning on spinning this thing to 7,000, (7,500 if it wants it. And I have a 4.88 12 bolt sitting around.)

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2019, 01:55 AM
ericnova72's Avatar
More for Less Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: S.W. Lower Michigan
Age: 52
Posts: 17,446
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 262
Thanked 3,134 Times in 2,629 Posts
My thought is it won't really help you at all. The 1205 gasket opening size is already bigger than the port size in the head just 1" into the port at the point the port steers around the pushrod(pushrod pinch point) coupled with the fact the engine cubic inch isn't large enough to turn that smaller port opening in the manifold into a restriction.

Any particular reason you chose the 307??
At that kind of RPM, do you have something better than just plain cast pistons?? Forged pistons for the 307 are rather hard to come by unless ordered custom, obsolete NOS is rare to find.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:09 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
My thought is it won't really help you at all. The 1205 gasket opening size is already bigger than the port size in the head just 1" into the port at the point the port steers around the pushrod(pushrod pinch point) coupled with the fact the engine cubic inch isn't large enough to turn that smaller port opening in the manifold into a restriction.

Any particular reason you chose the 307??
At that kind of RPM, do you have something better than just plain cast pistons?? Forged pistons for the 307 are rather hard to come by unless ordered custom, obsolete NOS is rare to find.
Oh hey Eric how's it goin? We went over and you commented on this build awhile back. Haven't had time to get this done quicker so it probably seems like a new project, lol.
Why that motor? Doing it just to do it. It's a neglected motor but has a good bore to stroke ratio. Just wanted to make an honest 400 hp 307 and call it a day, but was bummed when I realized the pistons have the compression killing beveled crown, but doing the build anyway.
The guy who ported the heads didnt open up the intake port openings to the best of my knowledge (last place to open things up). Maybe it isn't a 1205 I'll have to check.
But ok sounds like I'm leaving the intake manifold openings alone (for now). As for the rebuilder beveled crown pistons, my friend said the previous owner of the engine wound it to 7,000 very frequently and spun it to 8,000 plenty enough and drove it for over a year. I know it's a gamble and would grenade sooner or later. Wanted to see what the combo could do for a little while then "retire" it to a somewhat milder build in my S-10. All of the old pistons measured equally and within spec, no collapsed skirts. I bought new of the same.
Not the best head choice but smaller than a Boss port and I'm pretty sure more efficient. And they sold 302s with those heads so I don't think it'll be THAT bad. If it is, then I'll be focusing on the early 400 block sitting around or one of the 350s.

3.905"3.25"
9:1. Ported Sportsman heads. XS274. Victor Jr. 650 dbl pumper. 1 3/4" headers. 3,000 stall, 4.10s. 3,300 pound '71 Nova (without driver).

Last edited by Hotrocks; 07-03-2019 at 04:20 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2019, 11:24 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,205
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 165
Thanked 1,066 Times in 847 Posts
The Victor Jr. is port matched to the Fel Pro 1206 gasket these are not super huge as ports go but should easily surround a 200 cc port on a 23 degree head. The 1206 leans toward a raised roof port so they don't run out of clamping space along the top as often happens say if you trim a 1205 to fit an aftermarket raised runner head, Dart Pro 1 and its many copies foreign and domestic comes to mind.


Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:02 AM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 12,195
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 842
Thanked 1,442 Times in 1,332 Posts
sounds to me like a total dog combo?
If you get a true 9:1 combo so be it but I think that is optomystic. The Vic Jr is a common intake on 650 hp engines, 400 hp engine is not in any way benefitting from this intake. The 650 is good enough for a 307 with open intake but I would copy GM with a 780 on a dual plane. The 1 3/4 headers are ok,but I would use 1 5/8. I would also tune the cam choice for a 7200-7400 peak power and the 4.88:1 gears as a minimum for a race car that heavy. Remember after the launch its going to be a Sunday drive after you shift into 2nd gear.

I have a couple 283s that I was thinking of tuning to 420 ish hp, but I want a 3,000 pound car not a rock. Looking to run mid 12s with a very stout street attitude,,,based on 5.13s and probably r200 transmission.
780 on an rpm intake, 58 cc aluminum heads (hope to cut to 55ccs) 9.5 cr. shaft rockers to be stable at 7400 rpm.
maybe do some comparitive driving in the future
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:15 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 4,749
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,104
Thanked 901 Times in 740 Posts
So you basically built an early 70s 283 T'bucket motor. Minus the 12:1 compression. I think it'll be fine, but I don't think its 400hp - thats 1.3hp/cube or a 450hp 350 / 500hp 383.
Not unheard of, but this takes a LOT of attention to detail; things like rings, cyl wall finish, oil control and a LOT of dyno time to suss out ignition, timing and fuel.
Cool project though, I like the dare-to-be-different stuff
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 1,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 213
Thanked 385 Times in 312 Posts
Why not run a 2 speed with that rpm range/gearing?

Your fuel system is going to need and be upgraded as well as your spark

You will need to do some head work or that thing is going to eat pushrods, rockers, valves, and cams running above 6500.

I been there. I ran about 20 small block 302 ish sized engines(whatever I could get cheap that bolted to a powerglide) through my 20's with 4.44-4.56 gearing in light rides like miatas, foxbody mustangs, and some unibody cars. The reason I stopped playing the high rpm v8 game is that 4 cylinders came out with potential to make just as much power (400-500hp)at similar rpm on mostly stock internals with better tuning. It is a far cheaper, lighter, more controlled way to run high rpm.


Play with your heads and cam. The intake is pointless if you cant get the air past those valves and into the cylinders.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2019, 03:21 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
The Victor Jr. is port matched to the Fel Pro 1206 gasket these are not super huge as ports go but should easily surround a 200 cc port on a 23 degree head. The 1206 leans toward a raised roof port so they don't run out of clamping space along the top as often happens say if you trim a 1205 to fit an aftermarket raised runner head, Dart Pro 1 and its many copies foreign and domestic comes to mind.


Bogie
I'll have to get over there and look at it again but could've sworn the outlets are quite small, like they're made to be opened up to whatever head. Thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2019, 03:29 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
sounds to me like a total dog combo?
If you get a true 9:1 combo so be it but I think that is optomystic. The Vic Jr is a common intake on 650 hp engines, 400 hp engine is not in any way benefitting from this intake. The 650 is good enough for a 307 with open intake but I would copy GM with a 780 on a dual plane. The 1 3/4 headers are ok,but I would use 1 5/8. I would also tune the cam choice for a 7200-7400 peak power and the 4.88:1 gears as a minimum for a race car that heavy. Remember after the launch its going to be a Sunday drive after you shift into 2nd gear.

I have a couple 283s that I was thinking of tuning to 420 ish hp, but I want a 3,000 pound car not a rock. Looking to run mid 12s with a very stout street attitude,,,based on 5.13s and probably r200 transmission.
780 on an rpm intake, 58 cc aluminum heads (hope to cut to 55ccs) 9.5 cr. shaft rockers to be stable at 7400 rpm.
maybe do some comparitive driving in the future
I hear ya, will see how it runs and if it's a dog (with a half-hearted top end surge, lol) then will go with the 416 heads sitting around. As for the compression, as mentioned in earlier threads I was ticked at not noticing the chamfered pistons til after the rods were pressed, which isn't a true flattop. Am definitely going to try an RPM intake for comparison. (Wonder if an original Torker could be ideal in combos as this?) The headers are what I have (1 5/8s were stolen a few years ago). Would like to hear of a high strung 283 buildup so go for it!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2019, 03:38 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
Why not run a 2 speed with that rpm range/gearing?

Your fuel system is going to need and be upgraded as well as your spark

You will need to do some head work or that thing is going to eat pushrods, rockers, valves, and cams running above 6500.

I been there. I ran about 20 small block 302 ish sized engines(whatever I could get cheap that bolted to a powerglide) through my 20's with 4.44-4.56 gearing in light rides like miatas, foxbody mustangs, and some unibody cars. The reason I stopped playing the high rpm v8 game is that 4 cylinders came out with potential to make just as much power (400-500hp)at similar rpm on mostly stock internals with better tuning. It is a far cheaper, lighter, more controlled way to run high rpm.


Play with your heads and cam. The intake is pointless if you cant get the air past those valves and into the cylinders.
Why not a 2 speed? I'm thinking a smallish motor would need as much of a low gear as possible (to a point) but if you have experience with 2 speeds....
The heads have springs that are 135 lbs on the seat, around 370 at full lift, can't remember but the pushrods are a cpl of steps above stock (I think .083" wall. Competition Products around $70 in 2012). The rocker geometry was checked, but again if you played with similar combos I'm listening. Thanks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2019, 03:43 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
In addition to a previous reply, the fuel pump is a 110 gph mechanical with half inch line up to the pump.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2019, 05:14 AM
ericnova72's Avatar
More for Less Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: S.W. Lower Michigan
Age: 52
Posts: 17,446
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 262
Thanked 3,134 Times in 2,629 Posts
The only way a 2 speed Powerglide works for an engine such as this is with a lot of rear gear, which you have covered, and a LOT of torque converter stall, which you don't have.

Would need 5500 stall or better, in order to keep shift rpm drop from going below peak torque(shift recovery)....otherwise it turns into a slug at the shift to high gear. Only other way around this with a 2-speed is a lot of nitrous added with the shift. Something like 150 in low gear, and dump another 250 on it after the shift.

As it is, you're probably going to need the 4.88's just to have fun with the 3 speed auto.

I don't know why Cerial thinks it will eat valvetrain at over 6500....valvetrain doesn't care what the cubic inch is, if it is good enough parts a stud mounted rocker will turn 7500 with no problem. You've got enough spring, enough pushrod, with full roller rockers and good studs with a stud girdle 7500-8000 rpm is no problem.
whether it'll get up their and make any power, that's a different question.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-12-2019, 10:23 AM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 12,195
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 842
Thanked 1,442 Times in 1,332 Posts
The torker intake is crap. When they came out we used the tarantula then the scorpion. The scorpion was actually not bad,,,
more the little 5 liter I think I would start with the rpm intake. My 780s are 650s with 850 base plates. very good throttle response.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:15 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
The torker intake is crap. When they came out we used the tarantula then the scorpion. The scorpion was actually not bad,,,
more the little 5 liter I think I would start with the rpm intake. My 780s are 650s with 850 base plates. very good throttle response.
Gotcha I was thinking the smaller runners of the Torker would help keep velocity up on the smaller motor while still having the top end of a single plane. I do have every intention of trying an RPM or Stealth or equivalent.
And a friend mentioned awhile back about the hybrid carb using a 650 body and 850 baseplate. Interesting and will probably wind up trying it sooner than later. Thanks!

Last edited by Hotrocks; 07-16-2019 at 01:27 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2019, 01:43 AM
Hotrocks's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 111
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 27
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
The only way a 2 speed Powerglide works for an engine such as this is with a lot of rear gear, which you have covered, and a LOT of torque converter stall, which you don't have.

Would need 5500 stall or better, in order to keep shift rpm drop from going below peak torque(shift recovery)....otherwise it turns into a slug at the shift to high gear. Only other way around this with a 2-speed is a lot of nitrous added with the shift. Something like 150 in low gear, and dump another 250 on it after the shift.

As it is, you're probably going to need the 4.88's just to have fun with the 3 speed auto.

I don't know why Cerial thinks it will eat valvetrain at over 6500....valvetrain doesn't care what the cubic inch is, if it is good enough parts a stud mounted rocker will turn 7500 with no problem. You've got enough spring, enough pushrod, with full roller rockers and good studs with a stud girdle 7500-8000 rpm is no problem.
whether it'll get up their and make any power, that's a different question.
I agree, while a 2 speed could possibly be quicker on the track I really don't think it would be too pleasant on the street.
As for RPM capability....The studs are 3/8" ARPs. Wish they were 7/16" but the used Comp Cams steel full rollers were CHEAP and they're 3/8" so it is what it is. If I want it to keep making power above 6,500, a stud girdle will probably be needed. As for power.......if dogs not only chase it, they CATCH IT..... I'm putting the combo on a 350 I have. Thanks! 🤔 🤣🗯️
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.