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  #20596 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John long View Post
I will stop the beads before the bend which will limit the amount it draws. Also, will not tip the end flanges until the piece is completed and ready to fit in order to be sure the final width is correct. Those beads are deeper than I can make also.

I am using 18 ga metal so it is pretty stout before any bead rolling.

John
Will you pre-stretch before beading?
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  #20597 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
This will be mighty interesting for me since I am facing down a big Cat job. John, can you by chance suggest a free learning source such as a vid, that would help me get my feet wet on the English wheel? All I've managed to do with it is look like a dork.
The best I ever saw were put out by an old English panel beater by the name of John Glover. He did a two tape set where he made a model A front fender from scratch. Yup. Front fender! He even put in the wire edge.

I have not seen any of John's tapes in years though. You might look on Ebay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 123pugsy View Post
Will you pre-stretch before beading?
I usually do. It really does help. Especially on a fairly flat piece.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 123pugsy View Post
A couple of good metal shaping sites:

All MetalShaping - Powered by vBulletin

Metal Meet Forums


Youtube and a vid you can buy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omRlIBONJAM
Lazze puts out a lot of tips and tricks with the English Wheel also. He has a bunch of Utube videos.

John
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  #20598 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 07:40 AM
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Got to tell ya, first seeing the adds for the SSR, liked it. However when produced, much less impressed. I consider it as the same let down as the PT cruiser became after it hit the roads.

Biggest yawn is the size. Looking retro kind of 40 ish a plus. The go kart platform destroyed them both.

Had the unfortunate experience, forced into driving the PT as a rental ........ the most uncomfortable ride man has produced.

Never been in the SSR, just see them rarely, that speaks to the wonder of that design. btw Is yellow the only color produced? That's all I've ever seen, or the folks buying get the yellow cause they think that makes the thing look bigger?

Greg
Greg,
Yellow is not the only color. Red, Black, Silver (I think), and a Blue/Green almost flip flop color. Maybe more. My dad has an '05 in the Blue/Green. The Blue/Green has the lowest production numbers, and I've never seen another one 'in the wild'. Nice ride, I like to drive it. I think it's built on the Trailblazer chassis, so no unibody mess. Dad's is all OEM stock with the 395 HP LS.

Dave
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  #20599 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 08:35 AM
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the pt was never any kind of performance car. fwd junk . the ssr was another story . ls2/6 speed was wicked fast. not sure what killed them. price maybe .
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  #20600 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 123pugsy View Post
A couple of good metal shaping sites:

All MetalShaping - Powered by vBulletin

Metal Meet Forums


Youtube and a vid you can buy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omRlIBONJAM
At the last Goodguys show I found myself all by my self looking at a cool car when Ron Covell ended up standing next to me chatting with me about the car. LOL He is a cool guy for sure, and a metal master.

Brian
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  #20601 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 123pugsy View Post
A couple of good metal shaping sites:

All MetalShaping - Powered by vBulletin

Metal Meet Forums


Youtube and a vid you can buy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omRlIBONJAM
I've watched some of that guy's vids before, bits and pieces. Thanks, Pugsy. I think I'll need more experience before setting foot on a metal shaping site though. You know how it is with guys who learn by doing rather than listening. I make stuff on an anvil.
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  #20602 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John long View Post
The best I ever saw were put out by an old English panel beater by the name of John Glover. He did a two tape set where he made a model A front fender from scratch. Yup. Front fender! He even put in the wire edge.

I have not seen any of John's tapes in years though. You might look on Ebay.



I usually do. It really does help. Especially on a fairly flat piece.



Lazze puts out a lot of tips and tricks with the English Wheel also. He has a bunch of Utube videos.

John
Thanks, John. I'll continue the quest for knowledge but won't buy anything. Can't. What I have not done is take a few minutes with a scrap to play. Yet. But thats coming. I really don't anticipate needing it much on the Cat job but I want to grasp how it is used and get a feel for it to broaden my range of options from here on out. Once I have the eureka moment I'll move toward a better understanding and be able to ask better questions.
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  #20603 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
Thanks, John. I'll continue the quest for knowledge but won't buy anything. Can't. What I have not done is take a few minutes with a scrap to play. Yet. But thats coming. I really don't anticipate needing it much on the Cat job but I want to grasp how it is used and get a feel for it to broaden my range of options from here on out. Once I have the eureka moment I'll move toward a better understanding and be able to ask better questions.
The theory is simple. The E wheel does not bend metal. It displaces it. When you work a piece of metal in an E wheel the pressure of the wheels presses on the metal displacing it. Since it has no place to go it begins to crown upward.


It is very much like your mom rolling out a pie crust. The thinner it gets the bigger it gets. With the E wheel you always leave a border that you do not work. That border prevents the metal from expanding outward so instead it grows upward.

That is why many people call an English wheel a raising machine.

The biggest challenge is learning how the metal will move as well as controlling the stresses building up in a panel as you work it. You will have a big head start with your previous experience.

John
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  #20604 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
At the last Goodguys show I found myself all by my self looking at a cool car when Ron Covell ended up standing next to me chatting with me about the car. LOL He is a cool guy for sure, and a metal master.

Brian
Looking forward to seeing some torch welds on your truck. I am scared of the fire wrench.

I was on power tour once, found a good spot sat down to shoot vid for awhile at an intersection. Somebody walked up and started doing the same thing next to me. After a few, I glanced over. It was Freiberger. I did a double take but left him be. Now I can't even remember what state that was in.

Just now did some remedial english wheel research on the web. Wikihow even taught me something. On to youtube, Covell was cool because for example he measured wheeled strips to quantify the effect with additional passes. Lazze was cool because during his casual explanation, he knew when to pause and look at you so his last sentence echoes in your head. Both guys seem like talented instructors.

The tidbits I just picked up have me anxious to walk up to the wheel again. Only times I have done that was once on the 33 roof job which nearly resulted in a mess, then last week I tried to wheel the seam area on that wheelhouse patch to even it out. It was immediately obvious that I had no clue in both cases.

Theres nowhere to advance to at my job but metal shaping interests me personally. For that, seriously I can thank Pugsy and John Long. My position just kind of evolved into full time metal guy but you two have used your gift of encouragement on me the whole time and for that I am much obliged. The reason I'm here is theres guys actively doing the kind of tasks I am being asked to do. If I stray from the path, I feel like you guys will let me know. Thanks again, bodymen.
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  #20605 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John long View Post
The theory is simple. The E wheel does not bend metal. It displaces it. When you work a piece of metal in an E wheel the pressure of the wheels presses on the metal displacing it. Since it has no place to go it begins to crown upward.


It is very much like your mom rolling out a pie crust. The thinner it gets the bigger it gets. With the E wheel you always leave a border that you do not work. That border prevents the metal from expanding outward so instead it grows upward.

That is why many people call an English wheel a raising machine.

The biggest challenge is learning how the metal will move as well as controlling the stresses building up in a panel as you work it. You will have a big head start with your previous experience.

John
We gotta bring Mamas into this? Seriously, don't get me started on Mom's cooking. Its what heaven must taste like. Her scratch dumplings are durn near medicine.

The border... is a eureka moment. Seeing the amount of pressure and passes in videos helps a bunch. The lever on our machine doesn't have a stop and that confuses me greatly. Is it broke?

Never really studied the wheels themselves but now I get it. Hopefully as you say, what experience I have will be a head start. Looking at the piece you're about to make, and thinking about a Model A fender gets me curious about how a slip roller fits into the mix. Used that tucking tubs on the 33 and its another interesting tool. I'll only ever be able to make parts that happen to be messed up on jobs I get, so I won't invest gobs of time honing my metal shaping skills just to be good. All I know is the road to more bread points toward the boss being more confident about the services he can offer. All my simple panel saves lately has likely been a boost for that, but he is just not interested in the high end big fab builds anymore. If I study hard maybe I can swing him back to those.
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  #20606 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
Looking forward to seeing some torch welds on your truck. I am scared of the fire wrench.

I was on power tour once, found a good spot sat down to shoot vid for awhile at an intersection. Somebody walked up and started doing the same thing next to me. After a few, I glanced over. It was Freiberger. I did a double take but left him be. Now I can't even remember what state that was in.

Just now did some remedial english wheel research on the web. Wikihow even taught me something. On to youtube, Covell was cool because for example he measured wheeled strips to quantify the effect with additional passes. Lazze was cool because during his casual explanation, he knew when to pause and look at you so his last sentence echoes in your head. Both guys seem like talented instructors.

The tidbits I just picked up have me anxious to walk up to the wheel again. Only times I have done that was once on the 33 roof job which nearly resulted in a mess, then last week I tried to wheel the seam area on that wheelhouse patch to even it out. It was immediately obvious that I had no clue in both cases.

Theres nowhere to advance to at my job but metal shaping interests me personally. For that, seriously I can thank Pugsy and John Long. My position just kind of evolved into full time metal guy but you two have used your gift of encouragement on me the whole time and for that I am much obliged. The reason I'm here is theres guys actively doing the kind of tasks I am being asked to do. If I stray from the path, I feel like you guys will let me know. Thanks again, bodymen.
If you happened to be going to Toronto in a month or so, you could drop by the metal shaping meet there for some hands on instruction. There is no cost except airfare, gas, hotel, rental car, almost nothing, ha....
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  #20607 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 02:17 PM
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The next time you walk up to the wheel, take a piece of metal and put masking tape around the edges about 2" in. This will stop the wheels from hitting the edges. Put in the lowest crown anvil. Start going back and forth in the middle. Do more passes there and gradually less towards the outer edges. This will give you a basic idea.

When you're done, take off the tape and make the same panel flat again. Post next year when you finish.
This will give you a real knowledge gaining work out.
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  #20608 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 02:37 PM
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If you happened to be going to Toronto in a month or so, you could drop by the metal shaping meet there for some hands on instruction. There is no cost except airfare, gas, hotel, rental car, almost nothing, ha....
Aw cool, so when does my double overdrive trans and swap kit get here?

I hope in a month that the wheel will be to me as the jaws are now. Boy do the young guys at work trip out when you make something... their words prod me too.
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  #20609 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
Aw cool, so when does my double overdrive trans and swap kit get here?

I hope in a month that the wheel will be to me as the jaws are now. Boy do the young guys at work trip out when you make something... their words prod me too.
When I replaced inner wheel houses on a '57 Chev wagon a couple years ago, I brought my S/Stretchers into Centerline. Dave, the owner, couldn't believe his eyes, how the metal just curved around and made shapes. He bought a set soon after and has tinkered with them, but he is too heavy handed and impatient to make small adjustments...

My E wheel is in pieces, up on a pallet in the racking. I stumbled around it for 2 years and never took the time to learn anything. I'm still too willing to spend money on a premade panel that I have to spend a day getting to fit...
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  #20610 (permalink)  
Old 09-17-2017, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
We gotta bring Mamas into this? Seriously, don't get me started on Mom's cooking. Its what heaven must taste like. Her scratch dumplings are durn near medicine.

The border... is a eureka moment. Seeing the amount of pressure and passes in videos helps a bunch. The lever on our machine doesn't have a stop and that confuses me greatly. Is it broke?

Never really studied the wheels themselves but now I get it. Hopefully as you say, what experience I have will be a head start. Looking at the piece you're about to make, and thinking about a Model A fender gets me curious about how a slip roller fits into the mix. Used that tucking tubs on the 33 and its another interesting tool. I'll only ever be able to make parts that happen to be messed up on jobs I get, so I won't invest gobs of time honing my metal shaping skills just to be good. All I know is the road to more bread points toward the boss being more confident about the services he can offer. All my simple panel saves lately has likely been a boost for that, but he is just not interested in the high end big fab builds anymore. If I study hard maybe I can swing him back to those.
I put a slip roll and a metal brake into about the same catagorie. They both bend metal but do not form it. Don't get me wrong, A slip roll is great if you are making a hot rod hood but it is not going to give you form.

If you are making a door skin pr quarter panel, it is frequently helpful to shape the panel in one plane first. That could be done with a slip roll but in reality I usually do it in a quicker and cruder manner.

Remember, The English Wheel and plannishing hammer can only stretch the metal. They can not shrink it. If you get the panel in shape one direction and then raise the compound curve into it, the panel will be much easier to control. Also, if you over stretch it you will either have to heat shrink it or raise the rest of the panel to correct the high spot......Not what you want to have to do. That is unless you have a power hammer or other high dollar suffisticated equipment at you disposal.

John

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