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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by jseabolt View Post
I'm just going to mount it on the side of the frame rail and hope it has enough head pressure to feed it and see what happens.
As long as the pump inlet is close to or equal with the height of the bottom of the tank the pump will feed till the tank is reasonably empty. Typically even the stock pick up doesn't allow the tank's actual volumetric capacity to be fully used.

Bogie

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Old 09-15-2019, 07:06 PM
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Getting back to your original problem. I don't think a electric FP is the answer. I would look at the float and needle in the carb. Clean it up. Crank the engine with the line to the carb disconnected to see what kind of flow you are getting. Clean out the fuel lines and tank . This car ran good for years for you. Just needs attention. You won't like the E FP.
Well it ran good for years until it get's into the 90s and is idling in drive throughs. If it was a fuel starvation issue with the float valve, looks like the car would start starving for fuel on the highway.

Before this happened, I drove over 5 miles at 60 mph. I stopped a PetSmart to pick up some cat food, then drove to a Popeye's less than 1 mile and that is when the car started idling rough in the drive through.

The car seems to require to idling for about 10 minutes before this happens.

I believe this is why it has never done this at a red light since red lights usually change before 10 minutes.

First time this happened was at an ATM at my bank. There is always some goober in front of you taking their sweet ***** time.

I'm going to rig up a piece of clear poly tubing between the mechanical pump and carb and see what happens. And see if I can actually induce a vapor lock condition on my property. Maybe use a hair dryer to aggravate the problem.
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jseabolt View Post
Well it ran good for years until it get's into the 90s and is idling in drive throughs. If it was a fuel starvation issue with the float valve, looks like the car would start starving for fuel on the highway.

Before this happened, I drove over 5 miles at 60 mph. I stopped a PetSmart to pick up some cat food, then drove to a Popeye's less than 1 mile and that is when the car started idling rough in the drive through.

The car seems to require to idling for about 10 minutes before this happens.

I believe this is why it has never done this at a red light since red lights usually change before 10 minutes.

First time this happened was at an ATM at my bank. There is always some goober in front of you taking their sweet ***** time.

I'm going to rig up a piece of clear poly tubing between the mechanical pump and carb and see what happens. And see if I can actually induce a vapor lock condition on my property. Maybe use a hair dryer to aggravate the problem.

Vapor lock has been with us forever especially if you operate in a hot climate or even in the summer months in the northern areas.



It's worse with modern fuel because it's blended for fuel injection engines, carburetors having been gone from production engines since 1986 that's about 33 years ago. These systems apply pressures from 15 to 60 psi on the fuel from inside the tank to where it escapes the injector's nozzle, so partial pressure vaporization inside the fuel lines is not a problem, but getting the fuel atomized in the fraction of time between pulling it into the cylinder and lighting a spark is the problem they need solved. So modern fuels have a lower vapor point to facilitate their function in these conditions.




The engine mounted and operated pump of carburetor days is now tasked to "suck" this highly volatile modern fuel through a tube running nearly the length of the vehicle. Then between the hot engine mounted pump move that fuel a couple feet under 3 to 6 pounds of pressure. Then releasing it into a bowel open to the atmosphere at one end and jets sucking on it from the other. Under these conditions on a hot day this modern fuel would rather be a true gas not a liquid. Unfortunately the mechanical pump cannot pump a true gas, only liquid. The carburetor jets cannot pass a true gas only liquid. So no matter where your at, there you are. To be someplace else you need a different solution to the problem.



One solution is airplane fuel, that has a higher vapor point to deal with the lower atmospheric pressures of altitude which like to encourage vaporization in the tank and lines. Race gas is usually formulated for carbs so it tends to be less volatile than corner station gas. The mechanistic answer is to put the pump in the tank and keep the fuel pressurized as long as possible till it gets to the carb.


From a systems standpoint you need to keep an electric pump from beating the fuel to death at idle and cruise. At the same time you have to size the pump for the point of maximum consumption because an electric pump runs at a constant speed where the pump bolted to the engine runs at a variable speed with engine rpm so at idle and cruise it delivers less fuel where the engine needs less while to some limit it delivers more fuel as the engine speeds up, so you can think of it as being self compensating for the engine's needs. An electric pump can't do this without some trickery, so you generally size it for the most needy case and either allow it to essentially dead head at lower consumption's if the difference isn't too great as in a grocery getter, or for greater excess as with a street rod or racer bypass the excess when it's not needed or put a computer in the circuit to control pump speed or an on to off cycle as with Pulse Width Modulation in time to engine consumption demands.



Factory fuel injection started out a regulated bypass moving to PWM with second generation systems in the mid 1990's. My preference these days is either an electric pump in the tank or a nearby external electric pump sized to WOT consumption feeding a bypass regulator close by the carb to keep the feed line to the carb reasonably short. Then a bypass line preferably into the tank so as to allow the heated fuel to cool in the tank. Kind of an SST cabin heat solution where the environmental system can't bleed heat to atmosphere so we sink it in the fuel then burn it in the engines. The alternate being return ahead of the pump which at least gives it the distance from the regulator to the pump to drop some of the heat of compression in the fuel by the pump.


The next trick is keeping the carb itself cool. Since the fuel injection gasoline is more volatile than older fuels the tricks of heating the carb are not as necessary unless you live in a cold climate. If you can pull the intake and shut off the heat crossover do so consistent with keeping a manifold heated choke working. I like a phenolic spacer under the carb of at least a half inch thick to stop the heat soak. A shield can be used under the carb to redirect and reflect engine heat away as well, I also use stainless steel fasteners as stainless is a poorer heat conductor than ordinary steel. Keep in mind that shinny surfaces reflect heat while dark surfaces absorb heat. Also, that smooth surfaces while better at reflecting heat are of themselves a poor heat transfer surface. Rough surfaces are better at transferring heat both in and out of the surface. So this leads into all sorts of games you can play with to try and deal with heat.


Bogie

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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:54 AM
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What I have not seen mention is if this were to happen again, what can I do about it so I can be on my merry way and not have to wait hours for the car to cool down before it will start?

I heard of dousing the fuel pump, fuel lines and carburetor with water. I don't know if I would want to risk thermal shock on my engine by pouring water onto it.

Could you just disconnect the discharge line off the fuel pump to relieve any pressure built up in the line?

I thought I might try insulating the fuel line coming off the pump to see what effect this has before retrofitting an electric pump. Dumb question but I found a better place for this pump. It's closer to the tank but I'd have to mount it at 45 degree angle, sort of on the inside panel opposite of the rocker panel, right at the wheel well. I don't mean inside the wheel well or where it's vulnerable to road debris.

The tubing points downward at a 45 degree angle so could I mount the inlet of the pump in this direction?

As far as a return line. Running one is not out of the question. I could always run it along the supply line, drill a hole in the trunk and connect it to the vent line coming off the filler neck instead of dropping and modifying the tank.

I just need about 10 to 15 feet of tubing...

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Old 09-16-2019, 08:22 AM
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Back in the "Good Ole" days it was found that attaching spring loaded clothes line clips to the fuel line helped. I can't really see why given that wood isn't a good heat conductor but does provide some insulation.


I've never been too keen on insulating fuel lines as this is as good at keeping heat in as keeping it out, so you need to be selective about where you do this.


Given that it's unknown if the problem is before or after the pump watering the fuel line where you can get at it is an experiment. A heat shield between the line and the engine might help both be reflecting engine heat away and if against the line, providing some fin effect surface cooling which of course can work in reverse and add heating surface, another experiment.


I have wondered but never done a variation on the clothes line clip thing be using spring steel paper binder clips to add "fin" area to the hard lines. One more experiment.


I live on the wet, cool side of the mountains, summer isn't over but we already moved into fall so cooking fuel systems isn't a problem here. Beside for my own rides I use fuel delivery systems exactly as I describe. For my adventures to the desert side of the mountains I've not had any issues with this set up.



Bogie
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Old 09-19-2019, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by jseabolt View Post
I know they make fuel pump mounts. They look like miniature motor mounts.

But I've got some black rubber material about 1/4" thick I found somewhere. I was planning on cutting out of piece the size as the base and placing it between the frame rail and pump.

I did the same thing when I mounted that GM throttle body pump to the body on my Yugo. I can't tell that there is much vibration.
Go for it. I put an electric pump like yours on my bucket by just inserting it in the existing fuel line under the car and it worked fine and no noise or vibration. The pumps that require attention are the high pressure EFI pumps. They are very noisy. When I switched to EFI I got a Fuelab pump and regulator combo that adjusts pump speed to meet engine demand. Very nice stuff.
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:57 AM
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Before I install this electric fuel pump, I was going to try this "special" fuel filter first. This filter has some sort of liquid/vapor separator inside it that purges vapors out a 1/4" line.



https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b.../33040/4832394

I had him order the store brand for $5.99 and will pick it up today after work.

There is also a filter with a 3/8" inlet/outlet, WIX part# 33041. BTW.

It's for a Jeep/AMC application. Not sure what the 3/8" version fits. Apparently it was to address vapor locking issues when unleaded gas was introduced. The 1/4" line is supposed to be routed back to the vent line coming off the fuel tank. The guy at O'reilys said it could also have been routed to the charcoal canister (some models).

I don't know what's inside it. Whether there is some sort of pressure relief valve under the 1/4" nipple or it actually separates the fuel from the vapors. Either way it's supposed to relieve pressure.

I was going to remove the fuel filter that screws into the carburetor, install a fuel fitting in it's place, replace the metal line with a piece of hose, insulate it and install this filter near the carburetor. That metal line comes very close to the timing chain cover and think it could be acting as a heat sink.

As far as this 1/4" mipple goes, if all it does it vent vapor, I was just going to run it straight to the ground. I could possibly vent it back into the air cleaner. That might cause the engine to idle a bit rich while idling in drive throughs for more than 5 minutes. I don't know what the outcome of that would be. I guess it's better than idling too lean from running out of fuel.

My only concern is the hose may puke gasoline at idle. However it can't be any worse than fuel boiling in the fuel bowel and running all over the place. All the intake manifolds and carburetor bases on my carbureted cars are stained yellow.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jseabolt View Post
Before I install this electric fuel pump, I was going to try this "special" fuel filter first. This filter has some sort of liquid/vapor separator inside it that purges vapors out a 1/4" line.



https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b.../33040/4832394

I had him order the store brand for $5.99 and will pick it up today after work.

There is also a filter with a 3/8" inlet/outlet, WIX part# 33041. BTW.

It's for a Jeep/AMC application. Not sure what the 3/8" version fits. Apparently it was to address vapor locking issues when unleaded gas was introduced. The 1/4" line is supposed to be routed back to the vent line coming off the fuel tank. The guy at O'reilys said it could also have been routed to the charcoal canister (some models).

I don't know what's inside it. Whether there is some sort of pressure relief valve under the 1/4" nipple or it actually separates the fuel from the vapors. Either way it's supposed to relieve pressure.

I was going to remove the fuel filter that screws into the carburetor, install a fuel fitting in it's place, replace the metal line with a piece of hose, insulate it and install this filter near the carburetor. That metal line comes very close to the timing chain cover and think it could be acting as a heat sink.

As far as this 1/4" mipple goes, if all it does it vent vapor, I was just going to run it straight to the ground. I could possibly vent it back into the air cleaner. That might cause the engine to idle a bit rich while idling in drive throughs for more than 5 minutes. I don't know what the outcome of that would be. I guess it's better than idling too lean from running out of fuel.

My only concern is the hose may puke gasoline at idle. However it can't be any worse than fuel boiling in the fuel bowel and running all over the place. All the intake manifolds and carburetor bases on my carbureted cars are stained yellow.

You WILL need a return line to the tank with that filter! When not purging vapor it will be bypassing fuel. I tried the same filter and return line and it fixed my problems by about 95%. Still at WOT for a stretch it would "run out of gas" when real hot.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:50 AM
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You WILL need a return line to the tank with that filter! When not purging vapor it will be bypassing fuel. I tried the same filter and return line and it fixed my problems by about 95%. Still at WOT for a stretch it would "run out of gas" when real hot.
What would happen if you TEEd that 1/4" line back into the 3/8" line that feeds the mechanical fuel pump? That way the fuel just makes a complete loop.

Hey, this video is where I got the idea. This guy's name is Tony. Are you the same guy?

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Old 09-20-2019, 06:13 AM
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What would happen if you TEEd that 1/4" line back into the 3/8" line that feeds the mechanical fuel pump? That way the fuel just makes a complete loop.

Hey, this video is where I got the idea. This guy's name is Tony. Are you the same guy?

Nope, I look a little rough but not that rough. I have a short non narrated video on there somewhere that shows me using a plastic filter to see the vapor, then me putting a garden hose on the fuel pump to cool it down. I think in that video I actually have the bypass filter up very close to the carb, and added the plastic just for a "site glass". If you do do it, put the bypass as close to the carb as possible.



I don't think a tee and a loop would give you a fair idea if it would work unless the hose ran for quite a while in cool air and gave the vapor a chance to cool and return to liquid again. Otherwise you will be pumping vapor into the fuel pump.


I skipped through most of the video but caught enough to see that he also says the vapor starts in the fuel pump. So pumping vapor to where the vapor starts... Oh, I didn't know they made one without an orifice, you will certainly need an orifice or your fuel pressure may go down so low that it will have new problems.
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Old 09-20-2019, 07:25 AM
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Nope, I look a little rough but not that rough. I have a short non narrated video on there somewhere that shows me using a plastic filter to see the vapor, then me putting a garden hose on the fuel pump to cool it down. I think in that video I actually have the bypass filter up very close to the carb, and added the plastic just for a "site glass". If you do do it, put the bypass as close to the carb as possible.



I don't think a tee and a loop would give you a fair idea if it would work unless the hose ran for quite a while in cool air and gave the vapor a chance to cool and return to liquid again. Otherwise you will be pumping vapor into the fuel pump.


I skipped through most of the video but caught enough to see that he also says the vapor starts in the fuel pump. So pumping vapor to where the vapor starts... Oh, I didn't know they made one without an orifice, you will certainly need an orifice or your fuel pressure may go down so low that it will have new problems.
I think I found it:


This may sound like a Rube Goldberg contraption but I have one of those small transmission coolers I could mount in front of the radiator, so the mechanical fan could pull air through it. I could feed the vapor line into this cooler then return it before the pump.

One concern is if the return line goes empty, could it suck in air?

I could just use a 5/16" tee before the original filter that screws into the carburetor, feed the hose through this transmission cooler then back in before the fuel pump.

Another concern. If the pump produces around 6 PSI and I'm sending fuel back before this pump, will this multiply the fuel pressure?

I ordered a 3/8" check valve I plan on installing between the sending unit pickup tube and supply tubing at the tank just in case I decide to experiment. That way no fuel get's pushed backwards.

It's a shame we have to find ways to modify our old cars to get around this new modern fuel with such a lower boiling point than leaded gasoline. People think ethanol is the problem but I think it's more the butane they put in fuel. Gasoline is made up of about 10 different chemicals.

Below is just one gasoline MSDS. I'm sure the the recipe changes from company to company, season to season and state to state.

http://www.docs.citgo.com/msds_pi/UNLEAD.pdf

Ethanol tends to boil around 173F. Butane will boil as low as 30F! Some gasoline contains Isobutane which boils off at 10F! I think that's in California.

Who knows, maybe just insulating the fuel line coming off the fuel pump would be good enough.

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Old 09-20-2019, 07:34 AM
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This may sound like a Rube Goldberg contraption

Yes it does sound that way, big time.

Yes to Butane, finally someone else knows it's not the ethanol.
Insulation won't help since the fuel gets the hottest in the pump mounted to the engine, insulation would just hold the heat in.
Just bite the bullet and run a return line. Anything else is just wasting your time. To tap into the tank, remove the fill tube and add a bung to attach to the return. No need to tap into the tank itself.
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:42 PM
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Yes it does sound that way, big time.

Yes to Butane, finally someone else knows it's not the ethanol.
Insulation won't help since the fuel gets the hottest in the pump mounted to the engine, insulation would just hold the heat in.
Just bite the bullet and run a return line. Anything else is just wasting your time. To tap into the tank, remove the fill tube and add a bung to attach to the return. No need to tap into the tank itself.
Yes, looks like I'm just going to have to do it. I can get a 20 foot roll of 1/4" copper tubing from Lowe's for $20. I'm not that good at bending tubing but I could use some compression fittings here and there and or short sections of fuel hose to make any intricate bends and follow it along the supply line and secure it to the supply line using those nylon zip ties.

There are two places I could dump the fuel. One is a drain plug in the corner of the tank. Maybe not the best place.

The other place is the vent line coming off the filler neck. This car did not come with a charcoal canister from the factory so I don't know why they didn't just use a vented gas cap.

Then just tee off just before the carburetor.

After all is said and done, will this return line allow me to keep my mechanical fuel pump? Or would I still need to use this 4 to 7 PSI electric pump? It's supposed to move 35 GPH.

Not to get off the main subject....

I maybe repeating myself but I've got an MGB that has an electric fuel pump that makes a mere 1-2 PSI and has a Weber conversion. It has no return line.

After I got the car running, I connected a pressure guage to see what kind of dead head pressure this pump was producing and if I needed a regulator because Weber's do not like more than 3 PSI. The guage barely registered. Yet the car has never starved for fuel. Of course it's only around 80 BHP.

I have never experienced vapor lock or hard starting after a hot soak on that car. Despite the fact that the intake and exhaust are on the same side of the engine, the fuel line is about one foot from the exhaust header.

Look at the fuel filter mounted on the firewall to the right of the black heater box and follow the hose going up to the Y fitting on the carburetor.

The only thing I can think of as to why this car does not suffer from vapor locking is the fuel hose is just not getting that particularly hot.

I've got several old cars (too many actually) and this one is not that particularly hard to start after a heat soak and I am somewhat baffled as to why.

I do run 93 E10 in it. On 87, the engine tended to "run-on" after I shut the engine off. On 93 is does not. But someone had the idle speed bumped up to 1000 rpms so that may have been why. I've since turned the idle speed down. Static timing is spot on.

Some goober had removed the thermostat so it's probably been running cold and may have developed carbon buildup.

I put a new thermostat in it and it has never overheated on me.
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Old 09-20-2019, 03:47 PM
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I am using copper for my vent lines mainly because they are highly visable. Worst case it cracks and vents to the atmosphere till i notice it.

But I would never use it for a direct fuel line.

Use rubber line. In most cases fuel injection line is only 1 to 2 dollars more a foot and better built.

Brake line will work well for straight stretches using rubber for bends. Double flare the ends and double clamp for years of trouble free issues.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:29 AM
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I'd order some Ni Copp line, 25' rolls are pretty cheap now on Amazon. Also go as large as your fuel line coming in.


Oh, and no guarantee's. Like I think I mentioned on mine it fixed the problem 95%. Only when going WOT with a 454 from nearly a stop, at about 70mph it would still sometimes "run out of gas". The electric fuel pump fixed that. I even had a 1/8" insulating spacer on my mechanical fuel pump.
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