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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I need some advice on component selection for a rebuild of a 1962 chevy 300hp 327. The recipient will be a 1967 RS clone Camaro (that still has a running 250 6cyl and a bad 2 spd powerglide) that will be used for show and go. I want it to sound mean, act mean when I shove my foot in it, but still be civilized enough to go get ice cream on a Sunday drive. It will be mated to a Muncie 4spd. This car is my 10 year anniversary present and yes I can drive a car with some real horse power and a stick. :p

My husband bought this motor from a friend in a box, torn apart for $600. He greased up the cylinders and crank and put them in storage.
The motor was originally thought to be a 1965 corvette motor, but after some investigation on block serial numbers we discovered it was a 1962 300hp out of a full size model probably an impala with a auto tranny.

It comes with set of 461 heads and another set of Canadian 462 heads.
it also has an Edelbrock performer 7101 intake manifold
and an Edelbrock edl-2201 cam, new in the box. 1500-6500rpm
Aluminum oil pan and pullies. Has the original pistons and crank that came with the motor from the factory.

I need advice of the cam and lifters. Would you recommend this cam for what I want to do with the car or would you sell it and get something else?
Also the lifters recommended are hyrdraulic retrofit roller #7102 which are about $600 bucks.

My hubby thinks we should sell the cam and buy cam lifter package

And if so, what do you recommend. Plan to put a Holley 600 cfm carb and shorty headers, but otherwise will look stock for appearances.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Here are the specs for the cam from summit racing website

Brand:Edelbrock

Manufacturer's Part Number:2201

Part Type:Camshafts

Product Line:Edelbrock Rollin' Thunder Hydraulic Roller Camshafts

Summit Racing Part Number:EDL-2201



UPC:085347022014

Cam Style:Hydraulic roller tappet

Basic Operating RPM Range:1,500-6,500

Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:234

Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:238

Duration at 050 inch Lift:234 int./238 exh.

Advertised Intake Duration:296

Advertised Exhaust Duration:300

Advertised Duration:296 int./300 exh.

Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.539 in.

Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.548 in.

Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.539 int./0.548 exh.

Lobe Separation (degrees):112

Computer-Controlled Compatible:No

Valve Springs Required:Yes

Quantity:Sold individually.

In-Store Pickup:Choose In-store pick-up (OH, GA, NV) on our web site.

Make some noise with one of these Edelbrock Rollin' Thunder hydraulic roller camshafts. They feature more aggressive profiles than conventional cams without excessive valve overlap. Edelbrock does this by testing and tuning them together on engine dynamometers for maximum performance. There's no guesswork about part compatibility with the Edelbrock Rollin' Thunder hydraulic roller camshafts. Recommended for high performance street and strip use, the Edelbrock Rollin' Thunder hydraulic roller camshafts work best from 1,500 to 6,500 rpm and they maintain good vacuum at idle.

Also domed or flat top pistons?
which heads?
 

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most guys on here will probably tell you to buy the 600 dollar lifters and run hydraulic roller cam (which does have its benefits) but if youre cheap and on a budget like me I think you will find a hydraulic flat tappet cam and lifter package for 150-200 bucks will suit you just right.

if you don't have pistons, buy flat top pistons. youll want your compression ratio somewhere between 9:1 and 9.5:1 for best results on 91 or 93 octane, whichever you have available. bore, stroke, combustion chamber cc, head gasket volume, and piston to deck clearance all go into figuring up a compression ratio, don't go by advertised compression ratio the pistons have.

id say run the 461 heads to bump your compression a little more. 461 are supposed to have 64cc chambers vs 68 on the 462s. HOWEVER, if these heads need even a touch of machine work, opt for a set of aftermarket aluminum heads. they can be had for under 600 fully assembled and shipped.

I would also consider a performer rpm or like manifold, rather than the basically stock replacement performer. summit sells a stage 2 intake that im currently running on a budget 350.

depending on cam, should be able to see an easy 350-400 hp with aftermarket heads. maybe 300-350 with stockers??
 

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also, don't use shorty headers unless you already have them or need them for clearance, which I don't think should be an issue.

if buying, buy a set of long tubes, you will make more power everywhere. :thumbup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
thanks @clwhoops44
there are budget restraints here as my car needs an overhaul everywhere. still runs and drives but is a 50 footer at best. needs floors and some rust fixing here and there. Suspension upgrades and new drivetrain.

My hubby has lots of early to mid 60's stock parts and engines laying around to rob parts from ( he is a die hard 1965-66 Chevelle enthuasist with a 396 set up for bracket racing) Not my thing LOL!

I will take your advice on the pistons as flat tops were originally spec'd out for this motor by the guy who bought the cam. Same goes for the headers. I have clearance since it will be all new. I will probably sell the edelbrock cam and keep the Edelbrock intake because it is a RPM performer high rise.

The 461 heads are dirty with grime but still coated good with old oil. the 462 are rusty and have been not in use for a long time. :( Probably use the 461 since they are in better condition and original to this motor.
 

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Howards roller lifters will work and they're not 600 bucks.....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-91164n/overview/

If hubby thinks he is going to come out better with a flat tappet cam because it's cheaper than a roller, he has a rude awakening coming. The era of flat tappet cams has come and gone.

The auto manufacturers put pressure on the oil companies to eliminate extreme pressure lubricants in motor oils because those lubricants that got past the rings and into the combustion chamber began wreaking havoc with the chemistry/metallurgy of catalytic converters, so much so that the auto manufacturers were having a large number of warranty claims from customers. In order to plug this leak in their profit stream, they had the extreme pressure lubes taken out of off-the-shelf oils. Now, here is where the problems began showing up. It seems that down through the years, these extreme pressure lubricants were responsible for making flat tappet cams live. As soon as these lubes disappeared out of oil, those customers with flat tappet motors began having trouble with wiping out camshafts. It is still possible to run a flat tappet cam by using care in your choice of parts, using extreme care in assembly and using an additive to the motor oil that contains these (ZDDP) extreme pressure lubricants. Here's what I mean by care in assembly....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Camshaft_install_tips_and_tricks
Do yourself a favor and install a roller cam. You'll be glad you did because there are no special procedures or products to buy, just clean the storage film off them, oil them thoroughly with motor oil and install. When changing oil, you will not need any special lubricants or anything, just off-the-shelf motor oil and a filter.

Now, as far as a piston, this would be my choice. They will support the timing of the roller cam you have.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-h660cp30/overview/make/chevrolet

One thing I would do for sure is to cc the chambers in the heads. If you know that for sure, you can figure the static compression ratio and from that you can match it to the cam. Buy a burette, stand and cover plate.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-911581/overview/
Once you have this equipment, you can charge your hubby's friends 40 bucks a set to cc their heads for them and you will have your investment back in 3 sets of heads. After that, each set you do is pure profit. Use Isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alchohol) from the drugstore and food coloring from the grocery to color the alcohol so you can see it in the cc burette.

I would have your machine shop verify the validity of the main bearing bores for being round and parallel with the other bores. Then I'd register the block on the main saddles and cut the block decks to 9.000" block deck height. This will set the stage for a proper squish in the motor and will also insure that the heads will sit squarely on the block, which will further insure that the intake manifold will sit squarely on the heads. With a zero deck, you can then run a 0.039" head gasket for a 0.039" squish.

Let's run through the numbers, using 62 cc's in the chambers as a target....

.7854 x 4.030 x 4.030 x 3.25 x 16.387 = 679.3 cc's in the cylinder
0 cc's in the piston deck height
5 cc's in the piston crown
62 cc's in the chambers
Fel-Pro #1010 head gasket 8.9 cc's

Total cc's (679.3 + 0 + 5 + 62 + 8.9) = 755.2 cc's total
Subtract cylinder cc's from total cc's (755.2 less 679.3) = 75.9 cc's
Divide 755.2 by 75.9 and find 9.95:1 Static Compression Ratio with a 0.039" squish and an 8.25:1 Dynamic Compression Ratio.

With 64 cc chambers, 9.72:1 Static Compression Ratio with a 0.039" squish and an 8.07:1 Dynamic Compression Ratio. Motor should run great on CHEAPO pump gas with no detonation.

Personally, I'd forget the shorty headers. They'll do little but lighten your wallet. Use a set of long-tube, equal-length headers, 1 5/8" primaries, minimum flange thickness 3/8". Thinner flanges will curl up like a potato chip from the heat of exhaust and will spit out the gaskets.

By the way, I figured the DCR with a camshaft intake closing point of 44 degrees after bottom dead center @0.050" tappet lift (the Edelbrock cam that you have). Should make a really sweet little motor.

.
 

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Sounds like you are on the right track.
(Tech Inspector covered most of my post with better explanations, so I'll remove my content in that respect)

My specialty is gearboxes, so:
Make sure the countershaft pin bore at the front of your muncie (below the input shaft) is not leaking, and does not have a bunch of little pinprick marks around the hole. These are both symptoms of a worn out box. Put the trans in 1st and turn the tailshaft 10 time; the input should turn 22 or 25 times. If its 22 times, its an M21 or M22 and should have a 4.11 rear gear ratio for the 327 to really do its job on the street. The trans that turns 25 times is the M20; and is perfect for a street car. it has a "deeper" 1st gear and means you can use it with a more street friendly rear axle ratio like a 3.55 or 3.73. You'll get the same punch off the line matching an M20 with a 3.55 as you will with the M21 and a 4.11; but in 4th gear the crusing RPMs will be much more liveable. a 327 needs a 3.55 rear gear or numerically higher, to build RPMs and make power.
 

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Some addition to what AutoGear said....

You will need somewhere in the vicinity of a 10.00:1 first gear final drive. Multiply the first gear ratio times the rear gear ratio. For instance......
2.56 x 3.73 = 9.55:1 first gear final drive (47 mph @5500 with 27.5" tire)
2.52 x 4.10 =10.33:1 first gear final drive (44 mph @5500 with 27.5" tire)
2.20 x 4.56 = 10.03:1 first gear final drive (45 mph @5500 with 27.5" tire)
http://www.5speeds.com/muncie2.htm

.
 

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Another vote to keep the roller cam you have and use the Howard's lifters. Howards has been around nearly as long as Edelbrock, and is making better stuff than Edelbrock is nowadays.

Neither make their own lifters, but I know Howards uses Morel's and they are considered one of the best made. No idea who Edelbrock uses. No advantage/necessity at all to have to have Edelbrock lifters just because it is an Edelbrock cam.

Neither of your old heads will have bolt holes for the long water pump front accessory drive brackets if your Camaro has the long pump, so check that......another reason to buy a modern head...and if the 461's need a typical old head rebuild, the cost of redoing them will be within a couple hundred dollars of buying new budget aluminum heads, and the new aluminums will make 40+ more HP.

TechInspector has you covered on the rest.

Typical machine work will also include regrinding the crank, or at a minimum having it repolished; those old 327 rods should definitely have the rod bolts replaced and the rod bearing bore resized.
 

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To dovetail with Professors Eric and T.I:

Factory performance cars used 9:1 total gear reduction (final drive ratio, starting line ratio...all the same thing) as a baseline.
4.11 (rear gear) x 2.20 (1st gear M21) = 9.04:1
3.73 (rear gear) x 2.52 (1st gear M20) = 9.39:1
3.55 (rear gear) x 2.52 (1st gear M20) = 8.95:1

By keeping a short tire under the rear of the car (less than 26.5" tall) you'll have more acceleration, a taller 27 or 28 in tall tire will slow your acceleration a bit, but lower RPMs on the highway. Id recommend the 3.73 rear with an M20 and a 26-27" tall rear tire.

Some good street aluminum heads for 327s would be anything like a Brodix IK180, Profiler 180's, older AFR 180's. Id avoid the edelbrock heads (not much performance for the money over fixing your old heads.

Your old heads, I'd keep the valve size that they have, install hardened exhaust seats and have your machinist measure the combustion chamber volume. Cast heads can be all over the place, it wouldnt be unusual to see them as large as 66-67cc's. If they're that large, a minor surface cut will restore a 62-64 cc chamber volume that T.I referenced in his original post.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
@techinspector1

thanks... A lot of info to absorb and investigate:rolleyes: love it!!!

I was wondering if there were other lifter out there that could be used for less of dent in the wallet with the cam I have.
Edelbrock and their vendors only recommend edelbrock products for use with edelbrock products. Makes it fun to use another brand with them.

My machine shop will determine what work my motor needs in regards to re-boring and ringing etc. Not sure what that will be until the motor is on the bench. It is in better shape than most. No gouges or scratches on the cylinders walls.
And I will purchase a rebuild kit with pistons that suits what needs to be done on the 52 year old motor by their recommendation. I would like a .030 bore. And use the stock push rods if possible

I will discuss your recommendations on the pistons, planing and gaskets with my shop.

I just have a say in the cam, pistons, intake, lifters, headers and carb to some extent. And the cam is probably one of the most important selection item in a motor. Easy to do right or wrong

As for the heads, I will have them cc'd and probably new valves, seats and springs as recommended. I know they are 1.94 not 2.02
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
We haven't located a Muncie yet, still looking. they are getting scarcer by the day and pricier and the last Muncie we had that wasn't installed grew legs and ran off. :mad:

Since this is a new project and my husband specializes in chevelles ( not a lot of Camaro specific parts available ) We have been buying what comes at us naturally at swap meets and friends at this stage. We did pick up a floor shift steering column out of a junk 67 Camaro. 2 new doors, console and 2" cowl induction hood.

I was thinking 3.73 gears for more comfortable rpms for highway speeds.
 

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I will purchase a rebuild kit with pistons that suits what needs to be done on the 52 year old motor by their recommendation. I would like a .030 bore. And use the stock push rods if possible.
I will discuss your recommendations on the pistons, planing and gaskets with my shop.
Use extreme caution here. Your shop may or may not be totally familiar with SQUISH, the clearance between the crown of the piston and the underside of the cylinder head with the piston at TDC with the head gasket in place. Also, they may not want to zero deck the block, or if they do want to, they may try to use rebuilder pistons which have a reduced compression height.

The pistons I linked for you are the ones to use with a zero deck, having the proper compression height of 1.675". If the shop can show you a better piston with the same 1.675" compression height, go for it, but DO NOT settle for a cheapo reduced compression height piston. Also, the pistons that I linked for you have only 5 cc's in the crown eyebrows. That helps contribute to the static compression ratio that I calculated for you. Do not use a piston with more cc's in the crown eyebrows or trough. Tell the shop that you want the main bearing saddle checked for round and parallel with each other. If it checks out, great. If not, have the shop align-hone the mains to spec. Also, cutting the block decks to 9.000" is critical to the build. Keep the Performer RPM, it's the best intake manifold you can buy for making horsepower and torque from idle to 6500 rpm's. I'd use at least a 650 carb with it and a 750 might work even better, particularly with a 4-speed.

As for the heads, I will have them cc'd and probably new valves, seats and springs as recommended. I know they are 1.94 not 2.02
I wouldn't spend a lot of money on the heads. They were junk technology 40 years ago. They'll work, but you can easily get more money tied up in them than you would spend for a good set of brand new aluminum heads that will easily add 40 horsepower to the mix. Machine shop labor adds up in a hurry.

I would love to see you purchase a cc kit and do the heads yourself, as I outlined above in post #6. :thumbup:

Your old flat tappet pushrods won't work with a roller tappet cam. Flat tappet pushrods are roughly 7.800" in length. Roller pushrods are roughly 7.200" in length.

.
 

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If its in your budget, the following goodies would be nice:

*NEW roller trunion rockers like Crane Energizer or similar
*NEW stock length push rods should work
*NEW Cloyes double roller timing chain
*ARP Connecting Rod bolts and Head Bolts
*A Capacitive Discharge ignition box (such as MSD 6AL or Crane Fireball) and/or a Pertronix-type distributor conversion kit for your factory distributor and coil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I haven't gave a definitive thought about rubber height. But I do know it figures in with speed vs rpms. But will be putting 14" rallys on all fours.
As I said I want a stock appearance look, but the same note I want a motor that will get the motorheads checking it out when I pop the hood :p
 

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An inexpensive way to make you own "CC Kit" is an old (or new, they are cheap enough) audio or video cd to fit over the chamber, and a simple 30cc common "feeder" syringe available at your local pharmacy or farm supply. Get it all for less than $10. ;)

You have to fill the syringe a few times per head chamber, but they are marked in 1 or 2cc increments, so it is easy to see what you are doing.

Much cheaper than the "kits" sold to the high performance crowd.

Seal the cd to the head with a thin film of Vaseline, along with sealing the valves the same way.
 

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I haven't gave a definitive thought about rubber height. But I do know it figures in with speed vs rpms. But will be putting 14" rallys on all fours.
As I said I want a stock appearance look, but the same note I want a motor that will get the motorheads checking it out when I pop the hood :p
Grind the name off the intake manifold and paint it Chevy orange.:thumbup:
Paint the headers with John Deere muffler paint. Flat black, best header paint I've ever used.
 

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14" rim with any reasonable street tire will be fine. If your husband is on Team Chevelle; Jody Haag on there (Jodys Transmissions) is one of my distributors for Muncie stuff. If you want to jump into the transmission yourself, post up in the transmission section; we'll be glad to help. Whether its my products or not, you'll have enough information to make an informed decision. Its nothing you and your husband cant build at home with basic hand tools and a $99 shop press.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
doing MSD ignitions.


And TechInspector1 your awesome... Great answers and I WILL look into your recommendations extensively.

As for shops, I will be using a shop recommended by strip racer friend who says this shop has better and tighter tolerances allowing him to rebuild only 1-2 x a season vs 2-4 times a season as the other guy in our area. Holds compression better in his motors (so he says) I do know there are a lot of shysters out there and people who will only do it their own way irregardless of proven performance, especially when it comes out of the mouth of a woman! Have a "friend" like that.

As for the heads I will have them evaluated as $machine vs $for new. I try to be frugal with my money, and besides all heads look the same under chevy orange paint to a certain degree.

PS. I spent several years in the Navy as a Nuclear machinist mate, several years as a kid being "dragged" by dad to car shows and swap meets, several gear head boyfriends, and a hubby who as I said the local resident chevelle pack rat/ nut. I now work in the engineering department at a fabrication building with cnc lathes, mills, sheet metal fab lasers, plasma cutters and weld shop
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Love the John deere paint! My dad painted a 69 chevy 4x4 truck safety tractor yellow with extra hardener. It outlasted the truck!
 
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