351 Modified vs. 351 windsor vs. 351 cleavland ?

165092 Views 78 Replies 34 Participants Last post by Kazoom, Jan 27, 2013

Blackbob

Discussion Starter · Jan 23, 2003

I don't know if this is a repost but can someone clear these three engines up for me really good. Oh and by the way can someone tell me what "points" is ?

~Blackbob~

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61 - 79 of 79 Posts

xntrik

· #61 · Feb 1, 2007

KULTULZ said:
Yeah, that old CLV technology is old hat. Wouldn't pull a greased string out of a cats' a s s...

I'll be damned...

Duke, what I said was that the ancient C /M /W heads have ports and valves that need significant improvement.

The new aftermarket heads concentrate on the W series engines. Only recently has the newest C type heads become available and they are VERY VERY EXPENSIVE. What's the CM/W build ratio..... like 6%?

These new C heads flow significantly more volume the the original C heads....through much smaller cross sectional ports and make MUCH more power across the board. About the only commonality with the original heads is that they still bolt on. Read the last Engine Masters Challenge.

Factory C/W stuff is ancient technology. period.

*****************************************
Give it up Duke..... they

should be banned from this site......

This reminds me of the tee shirt.... "My parents said I could be anything, so I became an ****shole"

I just add them to my IGNORE LIST that now has 19 names on it.
And if they give ME any bs, I will do whatever I can to get them banned.

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xntrik

· #62 · Feb 1, 2007

Grandpa always said,

"Never argue with an idiot, someone listening might not be able to tell the difference."

SO, whomever believes that someone else is an idiot, you should just SHUT UP and ignore them.

KULTULZ

· #63 · Feb 1, 2007

Your observations on 335 Series Engine Technology is just like an a s s hole. Everyone has one.

To think that I would go out and buy a very expensive set of non-FORD aluminum heads when I can go to a salvage yard and find something that will stand up to them except in heads-up drag is just plain wasting money. How many 6000 RPM banzai runs do you launch on the street everynight? How often can you actually run a full quarter of a mile without going to jail?

I am going to give it a rest, please do the same.

xntrik

· #64 · Feb 2, 2007 (Edited)

KULTULZ said:
Your observations on 335 Series Engine Technology is just like an a s s hole. Everyone has one.

To think that I would go out and buy a very expensive set of non-FORD aluminum heads when I can go to a salvage yard and find something that will stand up to them except in heads-up drag is just plain wasting money. How many 6000 RPM banzai runs do you launch on the street everynight? How often can you actually run a full quarter of a mile without going to jail?

I am going to give it a rest, please do the same.

Take you medicine.

You have a lot of technical knowledge that I respect, and I appreciate things you input,

but you are strictly "old school" all the way.

timothale

· #65 · Feb 2, 2007

aussi fords

A friend of mine was an Engineer at ford for about 20 years, a VP at Saleen for a few years and had his own shop building fast fords and a few corvettes and camero's. I remember him saying his Pantera had a set of austrialian heads. and they were much better than the usa stuff. also the 302's made in mexico had more horses than domestic

Z28Boost

· #66 · Apr 6, 2007

Oh lord....

CrazyRoyExhaustfreak said:
Fork
Over
Repair
Dough

Get a GM 0r Mopar

KULTULZ said:
Has to be at least one MORON in every crowd...

Yup. Myself, I find it hard to understand the rivalry to begin with but that's what makes good competition I guess. But idiots like CrazyRoyExhaustFreak are truly braindead.

I like 'em all. 351 Clevelands and Windsors, 302s, 460s, 427s. Chrysler Hemis and 440s, Chevy 427s and 454s, 327s, 302Zs. AMC 390s. There isn't one of them I wouldn't own. American muscle is a great thing.

*Waiting for CrazyRoyExhaustfreak school me on how there's no such thing as a Chevy 302 or a Ford 427.*

:thumbup:

shanebasspro

· #67 · May 26, 2007

help 351C or 351M/400

i am lost i cant figure this out i no what to look for now but someone said that 351C did not come stock in 1979 F150s in america but mine was made in canada so if someone could help me out that would awsome also what gears were in the ford 9"

pmeisel

· #68 · May 27, 2007

Trucks mostly had 351Ms... I don't recall any Clevelands going in trucks.

On the 9" axle -- read the code tag and it will tell you. Most were 3.00 and 3.50

KULTULZ

· #69 · May 27, 2007

The 351C was only available model years 70/74 and they were passenger car (most were not performance models).

Light truck was still using 360/390 FE and changing over to the 351M/400 after 1975.

I cannot figure why this subject is so confusing...

KULTULZ

· #70 · May 27, 2007 (Edited by Moderator)

And He Came Down From The Mountain

:welcome:

THIS IS HOLY GRAIL...PLEASE RESPECT IT...

In all discussions of Ford V8 engines, it is extremely important to understand that Ford, unlike its competitors at the time (How many GM Divisions were there?), did not have just small block and big block engines. Ford engines generally came in three size ranges, sized to best suit the application (In other words, FOMOCO did more with less).

*******************

DISCLAIMER: I enjoy (and respect) all car makes and models. What I don't enjoy is being continually bad-mouthed regarding my personal taste in automotive.

For the most part (very infrequently) do you see me bad mouthing on BOW-TIE threads? I do become emotionally unstable at the commonly accepted practice of INTER-SPECIES MIXING. You want a STOVEBOLT, go find a body to match it.

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pmeisel

· #71 · May 27, 2007 (Edited by Moderator)

KULTULZ said:
:welcome:

THIS IS HOLY GRAIL...PLEASE RESPECT IT...

In all discussions of Ford V8 engines, it is extremely important to understand that Ford, unlike its competitors at the time (How many GM Divisions were there?), did not have just small block and big block engines. Ford engines generally came in three size ranges, sized to best suit the application (In other words, FOMOCO did more with less).

********************

DISCLAIMER: I enjoy (and respect) all car makes and models. What I don't enjoy is being continually bad-mouthed regarding my personal taste in automotive.

For the most part (very infrequently) do you see me bad mouthing on BOW-TIE threads? I do become emotionally unstable at the commonly accepted practice of INTER-SPECIES MIXING. You want a STOVEBOLT, go find a body to match it.

Kultulz is much better at the older stuff than I am, but here is the size categorization I find useful:

Windsor V8 family (221/260/289/302/5.0L/351W/5.8L)
FE family (mainly 390/428)
335 family (351C/351M/400)
385 family (429/460)
Lima 6s (144/170/200/250)
Cleveland sixes (240/300)

There are a few oddball variants I don't list, but this is the meat and potatoes. I think the reason there is so much confusion is that no one under 50 remembers much about the Clevelands, and there has been so much mis-information repeated that the truth is often obscured. If I had a nickel for every piece of inaccurate "knowledge" repeated to me about Clevelands, I would own a couple.

psyco dude

· #72 · Aug 10, 2007

runn141 said:
i posted what i thought was right, i got corrected no big deal. i thought it was gonna help but i got the help instead. now you say its past my bedtime is that because im 30 and your a washed up old fart

didn't read all the threads but you really do seem to miss the boat....as do MANY of y'all.... 351m/400 means just that....400 is not a 'M'. The 400 was designed using the cleveland set up for heavy cars-higher deck for longer stroke...'71 was a great year for the 400...decent numbers for a 2v engine 265hp and over 400ft lbs...ford played with a 4v version...didn't take. I now build 400 4v using aussie 2v closed chamber heads they used on their 302 cleveland and 351 clevelands down under...great engine. The 351m is a modified version of the 400...crank and piston change. The 400 only had 1 decent year before all engines had smog control shoved down their throat and sucked hind end until folks like me got the 400 going again...now theres stroker kits for a 434 and a 400 made the finals of Jegs engine masters comp last go around. heads, intakes, cams, timing sets, everything is available for the 400 to make a killer set up that rivals the 385 series...but will never overtake due to cid...

All decent wheezers/ 351W use cleveland style heads...period...the best ford wheezer heads SUCK hiney when compared to a 4v and most to a 2v cleveland. I'd take a cleveland in a light car over a wheezer any day of the week but would opt for the W in a bronco/truck..clevelands spin very well....different motors. I just built a W for a bronco and used '65 289 4v heads as they were better than any of the W heads i could find...whats that all about? WIth porting and bigger valves and a comp cam 265deh I'll get close to 300hp...not bad for a mild build..clevor it with cleveland heads and 400+ easy tho.

Clevelands are the best spinning engine ford made other than the 289...and they're close. It was made to race and a 4v cleveland has the best heads ford ever made stock...they are race quality heads. Wheezer has a better oiling system and a stronger design overall so a clevor is a great combination.

come and lets build some engines eh?

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downunder racing

· #73 · Mar 13, 2009

Aussie clevo

You guy's must be kidding... We don't use Windsors here in Australia because you can't get decent HP out of them unless you go to an alloy head.
We build 500 FWHP Cleveland engines with 2V cast iron factory closed chamber heads and that's in our street cars

These are 2 bolt main engines running standard oil pumps as well.
We also slip in the 302 Clevo rods with ARP bolts to give a better rod ratio.
High rise single plane, 850 Holley , solid cam and 4 into 1 pipes and your ready to go at 6800 to 7000 rpm.
Try and do that with a 351 W...
This is still the land of 98 octane pump gas...

nitro_baller4692

· #74 · Mar 13, 2009

downunder racing said:
You guy's must be kidding... We don't use Windsors here in Australia because you can't get decent HP out of them unless you go to an alloy head.
We build 500 FWHP Cleveland engines with 2V cast iron factory closed chamber heads and that's in our street cars
These are 2 bolt main engines running standard oil pumps as well.
We also slip in the 302 Clevo rods with ARP bolts to give a better rod ratio.
High rise single plane, 850 Holley , solid cam and 4 into 1 pipes and your ready to go at 6800 to 7000 rpm.
Try and do that with a 351 W...
This is still the land of 98 octane pump gas...

how long has it been since the last post on this subject?2007 :smash:

downunder racing

· #75 · Mar 15, 2009

And your point is what??? That you can read the date on a post.

Frank Whyte

· #76 · Feb 14, 2011

351w v. c?

Good info by Onebadmerc on 351w. Dan Gurney used these on his weslake ford motors in his can am and gt40s. Thanks for the detail.

Mustangman904

· #77 · Mar 14, 2011

This is a common mistake about the 351C it is NOT a big block it is a SMALL BLOCK and the heads can be put on a windsor with the right mods

Kazoom

· #78 · Jan 27, 2013 (Edited)

9

Lets get some guys here more confused, looks like some guys here don't know about FORDS 1966 XE #93532 351W 9.2" deck race block that was in development from 1966 to 69 that got bored/stroked to as big as 400CI in 68/69 for Can-Am racing just before it's development and racing got shut down.
...pic below is of it's best max size (4.085" x 3.750") 393CI version at 1967 Road America race...

Hood Automotive tire Motor vehicle Font Automotive exterior

... the 9.250" deck 351 "W"indsor # XE 93532 race block was cast back in 1966 way before GM's B Kundsen's "C"leveland block was even on the drawing board & this 351w XE 93532 9.250" deck Windsor race block got as big as 398/400 ci (4.110" bore x 3.770" stroke) with 600HP back in 1968/69 for Can-Am racing. 302 & 351 windsor XE race blocks were tested with canted valve head prototypes in 1968 before Kundsens new "C" block was and I believe the Ford canted valve sbf concept went back to about the mid 60's, also not known by some, there were plans WAY BACK in 1964-65 for a 9.450"+ deck 6.9-7.0L aluminum XE 94244 Windsor race eng for Can Am racing. IMO, if Kundsen didint take resources away from the SBF engineers we might have even gotten a GT4VBoss 402 ci "W"indsor engine as the 69 9.480" W block was destined to become a 400+ci eng if it wasn't for GM's Bunkie Kundsen screwing things up at FORD with Fords XE 93532 351W race block development by selfishly ramming through his own "Oldsland" inspired block for the short time he was there. Not well known to the public but B Kundsen caused chaos with some of the engineers and higher ups at Ford, this is were the rumors of sabotage came from at that time for pushing his own agenda. Some Ford engineers were also upset B Kundsen got H Yunick involved at Ford taking resources away from them screwing up the sbf 351w XE block's development and other things which is why H Ford Fired him only after about a year, wish Ford would of fired him sooner ...
The Story of Bunkie Knudsen and Ford | MILEPOSTS Garage (automotivemileposts.com)

goo gle "351w xe block" for more info...

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Kazoom

· #79 · Jan 27, 2013 (Edited)

6

gets a bit annoying at times seeing "Cleveland" fan boys gush over there "Oldsland" inspired eng block not knowing the Fact that most its specs org came from Fords earlier 9.2" deck 351W xe race block and the "cleveland" head BS thing/lie is tragic as the first canted valve xe prototype/s of the GT4VBoss head/s cast in 1968 were NOT!!! specifically for a cleveland block but originally for the 302 / 351 sbf "W" XE blocks. Also not well known was the early iron & aluminum heads had a shorter intake ports with H&M / BB making 2-1/4" tall port intakes for these heads. Ford Indy also originally had designed removable/changeable small ci intake port inserts in 69-70 for the production 4VBoss head design for racing LONG before anyone else ever did ...
Edd Stevens - Bud Moore Engine specialist (ponysite.de)

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1968 ske canted valve prototype (gt 4v boss) sbf heads ...

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61 - 79 of 79 Posts

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