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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Over at another forum there is a perfect example of why you ALWAYS intermix cans of paint. If you order up enough paint for your project and it is in more than one can, don't assume they were mixed properly, don't assume anything! Get another new, empty can if you must, and use it to intermix the cans of paint you have to be SURE they are the exact color.
This fella made a very common mistake, he trusted the paint store. I did the same thing once, which was my first lesson on the subject. It is an easy fix in his case and he will keep right on rocking. But it could have been a disaster.

Different shades of white purchased and mixed at the same time.


Here is a "Basics of Basics" on painting a car in pieces.
Spraying - Autobodystore

Brian
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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16,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
It is VERY easy to be mixing a formula (a "recipe" if you will) and put in a little more or less of a toner. We are talking about down to the tenths of a gram of color. Some toners are very strong, one drip could be a tenth of a gram or more. You mix your color on a very accurate scale, you pour in your toner up to a certain number, then pour the next up to the next number in the formula then the next and so on. With modern scales hooked to a computer there are some corrections that can be made. Older systems are simply pour up to the number and then change to the next toner in the "recipe". It is VERY easy to be off a hair. It just isn't that important most of the time to get them EXACT. For what ever reason, they are going to be blended anyway, they are going to be matched anyway, they are for an overall, etc.

Here is a great video on mixing on the scale. I just found it for this particular reason and didn't watch the whole thing so I can't support everything they say on it. But at about 6:50 they are mixing paint on a scale.
EDIT I just went and watched a little and right off the bat he calls the grams "Parts". insert rolling eyes smilie.

But if you are mixing say a five quarts of color (a gallon and a quart) for the customer, you mix a gallon in the gallon can, then you mix the quart in another quart can and hand it to the customer. Right off the bat if you added a drip or two more of a strong toner in both of them equally, the quart one is going to be changed MUCH more by that drip or two right? And being we are human, there is a very good chance the two are going to be different. How much different, often it doesn't even matter. But to be SURE, you intermix them.

The best way is to have them mix the quart in a gallon can. Then you just shake or stir them up well and pour a few quarts out of the gallon of paint into the gallon can with only one quart in it. Stir it up well and pour it back into the other gallon can, then stir that up and pour it back. Do this a few times and you KNOW you have the EXACT same color in both cans.

Brian
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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16,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I guess but "parts" when referring to paint is just that "parts" three table spoons to one table spoon is 3:1, just the same as three gallons to one gallon is 3:1. Around paint that is a part a gram is a gram and never to the two trains meet. :D

Brian
 

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When it comes to mixing, whites are the worst, wouldn't you agree Brian? Of coarse most of the toner is white, but, to give different shades of white, an extremely small amount of blacks, blues, greens or oxides are added. If your off just the slightest amount, your color's off...This coupled with variances (different shades or hues of the same color) from the factory, now you've got an even more agonizing experience...Tinting any color is an art, tinting white is the epitome of the art. I find white to be the hardest color to spray, it's difficult to see where your going or where you've been, I call it going snow blind...Most forgiving color though for suspect body work.

Ray
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
True! When I was a rep I had a store that sold paint to the "Skunk Train" company. Step Back in Time on Mendocino County's Historic Skunk Train



I had the good fortune of going to the shop where they worked on them regularly and getting to climb into a boiler and stuff like that. The most cool part was I had a 94 year old neighbor who spent his entire working life with Southern Pacific and I would come home and tell him about an old steam locomotive I saw up there and he would tell me all kinds of facts about it or some story about when he was working with them back in the thirties! Man do I miss that guy he was so darn interesting.


Brian
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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16,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
When it comes to mixing, whites are the worst, wouldn't you agree Brian? Of coarse most of the toner is white, but, to give different shades of white, an extremely small amount of blacks, blues, greens or oxides are added. If your off just the slightest amount, your color's off...This coupled with variances (different shades or hues of the same color) from the factory, now you've got an even more agonizing experience...Tinting any color is an art, tinting white is the epitome of the art. I find white to be the hardest color to spray, it's difficult to see where your going or where you've been, I call it going snow blind...Most forgiving color though for suspect body work.

Ray
Yep Ray I totally agree. You have to take many breaks when you are matching white because your eyes get tired very quickly. After a little staring at a color spray out that looks the same, walk away for a while and come back and it looks totally different!

Brian
 

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I'm glad you mentioned spray outs, without spraying the color and letting them dry, you don't know what you have...with today's B/C, you need to clear them as well and in many cases the clear changes the color especially the lighter colors like whites

I was just thinking about the formula books we had and I mean a library of books...then came microfiche and how about gram scales and the computer mixing systems we have today, how did we ever mix a color that matched with the old raise the mixing arm a certain amount and pour your toner in until it hits the pointy piece on the arm system...It's so long ago I can't even remember what we called it.

Ray
 

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I worked for a while at a combo body/repair shop off OBT in Orlando, Vince's Auto Body. The owner, Vince, was pretty impressive when it came to paint matching. He'd look it over in the shade and in the sunlight (never saw him use artificial light), then he'd disappear for a while then come back w/a touch up gun and a small rubberized magnetic sheet. He'd shoot the sheet than lay it on the panel after drying. He always seemed to get it pretty darned close. He'd do this a couple times till he was satisfied, the first time looked perfect to me but usually not to him.

He was the only paint guy I was around. He made me look at a gray metallic panel until I could see that there were actually several different colors that could be made out. Greens and blues. Or else I was hallucinating.:drunk:
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
You have to really have a passion for color match, either that or a serious God given talent.

You mention the sun over artificial light, the guys are work KILL ME they use that F-ng light all the time! The sun is right out side, and there they are using that F-ing hand held light. GRRRRRRR no wonders they can't match worth a crap. And Ray, another thing is using the clear you are going to use on the frigging car! The film thickness, the yellow (I know it shouldn't be there but it sometimes is) of the clear, it is very important to dupicate exactly what you are going to do on the car it's self. What sense does it make to spray the color different than how it will be sprayed on the car?

And of course practicing spraying it out with the same air pressure and distance. Again, I have seen guys bombing it on the spray out card coat after coat seconds apart just inches away so it covers fast. Are they going to paint the car that way? How do they expect it to match?

I have a guy I work with who has beached about the paint not matching when he has sprayed a spray out card that DID match. What do you say to a guy like this? I calmly asked, "How could the spray out card match and the paint on the car doesn't"? SOMETHING changed between the spray out card and the car, SOMETHING changed. He honestly believed it was the paint that somehow changed, I am not making this up!

Oh now you have me started, I need to go relax. :D

Brian
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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16,464 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'm glad you mentioned spray outs, without spraying the color and letting them dry, you don't know what you have...with today's B/C, you need to clear them as well and in many cases the clear changes the color especially the lighter colors like whites

I was just thinking about the formula books we had and I mean a library of books...then came microfiche and how about gram scales and the computer mixing systems we have today, how did we ever mix a color that matched with the old raise the mixing arm a certain amount and pour your toner in until it hits the pointy piece on the arm system...It's so long ago I can't even remember what we called it.

Ray
LOLOL, I used one almost this bad when I first started. It was more precise but not much.

Brian

 

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Talking about matching, sunlight, distance, pressure, tinting...and with today's paints, the angle (or flip) that you see the color can be lighter or darker, depending on the metallic you use...Like I say Brian, it's an art and i know you used to be a rep....How many times didn't you get called into a screaming customer that couldn't match a color....You need to get good quick or the competition got the account.

Ray
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Today the air pressure is very important with waterborne. I have next to zero experience with it but hanging around the shop I see how the air pressure is very important. The other day the painter showed me how he made a spray out divided into about 5 sections simply by changing the air pressure a couple of pounds, we are talking 2 lbs difference changed the color a lot!

Brian
 

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Your so right about water born, some manufacturers have different pressures for different guns, PPG's Envirobase also need an orientation coat for metallic's and pearls at about 1/2 the pressure you apply the paint at for coverage...
 

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"I have a guy I work with who has beached about the paint not matching when he has sprayed a spray out card that DID match. What do you say to a guy like this? I calmly asked, "How could the spray out card match and the paint on the car doesn't"? SOMETHING changed between the spray out card and the car, SOMETHING changed. He honestly believed it was the paint that somehow changed, I am not making this up! "

Did he wait any length of time between the spray-out card and spraying the panel. Bet you dollars-to-doughnuts it settled out in the gun, OOPS. Especially with whites, the toners all have a different specific weights to them, mix the paint ready to spray and leave it sit in a mixing cup for 15 min. and see if it settles with the toners on top. With a gravity feed gun you'll be spraying pure white toner first, with a siphon feed gun you'll be spraying color toners first. With pressure feed you have to deal with the length of the hose.

With color matching EVERYTHING matters. :evil:
 

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Faith - Respect - Trust
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"I have a guy I work with who has beached about the paint not matching when he has sprayed a spray out card that DID match. What do you say to a guy like this? I calmly asked, "How could the spray out card match and the paint on the car doesn't"? SOMETHING changed between the spray out card and the car, SOMETHING changed. He honestly believed it was the paint that somehow changed, I am not making this up! "

Did he wait any length of time between the spray-out card and spraying the panel. Bet you dollars-to-doughnuts it settled out in the gun, OOPS. Especially with whites, the toners all have a different specific weights to them, mix the paint ready to spray and leave it sit in a mixing cup for 15 min. and see if it settles with the toners on top. With a gravity feed gun you'll be spraying pure white toner first, with a siphon feed gun you'll be spraying color toners first. With pressure feed you have to deal with the length of the hose.

With color matching EVERYTHING matters. :evil:
Your right, in the days that I went from shop to shop trying to solve basic paint and or color issues, a pattern quickly emerged. It seemed as though certain shops would have a multitude of paint problems, while another shop down the street never had these issues with the same product. Most paint problems are human error, a good painter solves his or her own problems. The painter that I never heard a complaint from and put out a high volume and quality of work was a painter in the true definition of the word painter, the ones that always had a situation that they deemed to be a paint problem blaming product in my mind where applicators. Paint is paint, they all work, some may have a more user friendly clear or a better sanding primer whatever, real painters solves their issues in the both and not by pointing fingers.

Ray
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
"I have a guy I work with who has beached about the paint not matching when he has sprayed a spray out card that DID match. What do you say to a guy like this? I calmly asked, "How could the spray out card match and the paint on the car doesn't"? SOMETHING changed between the spray out card and the car, SOMETHING changed. He honestly believed it was the paint that somehow changed, I am not making this up! "

Did he wait any length of time between the spray-out card and spraying the panel. Bet you dollars-to-doughnuts it settled out in the gun, OOPS. Especially with whites, the toners all have a different specific weights to them, mix the paint ready to spray and leave it sit in a mixing cup for 15 min. and see if it settles with the toners on top. With a gravity feed gun you'll be spraying pure white toner first, with a siphon feed gun you'll be spraying color toners first. With pressure feed you have to deal with the length of the hose.

With color matching EVERYTHING matters. :evil:
That could be, and again, operator error and NOT the paint. When you see something like that it is pretty simple, it's something you are doing and not the paint. But he would always blame the paint.

Brian
 
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