I have a 51 Ford and I want to paint it jet black. I know that a car has to be perfectly straight to shoot it w/ black but my car isn't that straight. I was wondering if i fixed all the little dings and dents if i could "skim coat" ( put a light coat of mud on the whole car to and sand the crap out of it to make it appear straight) on the body. I was also needing to know if any problems could arise from this like peeling paint or excessive rust. Thanks for helpin out
Body Filler
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This can be done. Just make sure you prep the bare metal surface correctly (remove all the rust etc) and keep the filler skim coat as thin as possible and you shouldn't have problems. Sand with as long a straight board as possible and use a criss-cross pattern (X pattern) when sanding. I'm sure some of the pros will offer more detailed advice, so stay tuned.
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A lot of restro shops do this automatically. I did try it once on a fender and that was enough for me.
What they do use that will make it easier is instead of body filler they use a two part glaze like- Metal glaze, dohpin glaze, icing etc.
The nice part with the glazes is you can start with a 180 on your block and they are thinner and sand easier than filler.
Trick is like with all fillers coat only a fender or two at a time and start sanding in about 20-30 minutes as the longer they set the harder they get.
What they do use that will make it easier is instead of body filler they use a two part glaze like- Metal glaze, dohpin glaze, icing etc.
The nice part with the glazes is you can start with a 180 on your block and they are thinner and sand easier than filler.
Trick is like with all fillers coat only a fender or two at a time and start sanding in about 20-30 minutes as the longer they set the harder they get.
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Like Barry said, the glaze will get harder to sand the longer you wait. You must watch tho, when you start sanding the paper will gall up. You have to keep it clean. If you leave lumps on the paper, it will leave lines in the glaze as you sand. As is done with blocking primer, I also spray a dust coat of black lacquer on the glaze. Then sand with a long board until all of the black is gone. That should indicate that the panels don't have any low spots
I still recommend primering and blocking after you feel that it is straight. Again, spray a dust coat of black before sanding.
I still recommend primering and blocking after you feel that it is straight. Again, spray a dust coat of black before sanding.
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Boy, I sure am glad I found a better way!!!!
To think I used to do this very thing, haunts me
ain:
Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint
www.metalmet.com
To think I used to do this very thing, haunts me
ain:Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint
www.metalmet.com
Joined
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3,214 Posts
If I could work metal like he does, I wouldn't even paint it. Why even cover that artwork with paint?
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388 Posts
It's certainly nothing new! In fact, the method I now use to straighten body panels takes us back to the early days of automotive panel fabrication. Metalshaping, Coachbuilding, Carrosserrie, or whatever you wish to call it, is a part of our past that had nearly been forgotten. Thanks to a few, the old methods of producing and repairing sheetmetal panels have been saved from becoming a lost art.
It's been thought for years, that leading was THE way to go, but in fact, that is not necessarily the preferred method of repair.
The collision industry, even early on, 'fixed' things in a manner that was actually leaning toward being quite crude. With the introduction of Bondo, things got even worse. Body men began abusing the products and therefore quality was even further compromised. It got to the point, that this became the known method of repairing automotive sheetmetal. Just skim coating is has become the norm. I have done more of this type of work than I care to admit, but I thankfully, I no longer have to do that.
I've been very fortunate to have been surrounded the past 4-5 years with guys who are true artists and have been willing to teach me how to properly iron out body panels without the use of body filler. We gotten into this discussion here at hotrodders.com before, and every time, I am misquoted or misunderstood on what I am trying to bring across. I'm not scolding anyone for using body filler, nor am I saying I'm better than anyone here. I simply believe that it's best to use no body filler if you can, rather than to go into a job with the intention of skim coating the entire body and thinking that's the proper way to do it. If that was the "proper" technique, Auburn, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, etc. would have been slathering their bodies with plastic of some sort from day one! (yes, I know it wasn't available then, but you catch my drift)
SPEED. That's what has prompted the use of body filler, not high quality standards.
If you're comfortable with having it smeared all over your car, then so be it, but I prefer not to use it, as I've been down that road and do not wish to go back.
Just five years ago, I would have slathered this fender with filler and called it good. In fact, I would have been pretty bitter if anyone would have come along and said it wan't done properly, nor to the highest standards possible. But, I do believe I would have asked him to show me how to do it that way. Here are a few pictures of that fender.
Notice the marks from the shrinking hammer, pick hammer and all sorts of other abusive techniques
![]()
Here it is after coloring it with a wide tipped magic marker and blocked to reveal the highs and lows.
![]()
This is after about a half hour of slapper and dolly work and running over it with the shrinking disc. The bead and the area about two inches above it were eventually replaced, but I do not have a photo on file of a close up shot.
![]()
Here is the set of fenders with the grill shell, just minutes before the customer picked them up. I spoke with him two weeks ago and he said he applied three coats of primer, blocked 'em out and painted 'em. He was extremely happy to not need any filler. I couldn't have fixed them any faster, and perhaps it would have taken longer, actually, to skim coat with filler, excluding the replacement areas.
![]()
Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint
www.metalmeet.com
It's been thought for years, that leading was THE way to go, but in fact, that is not necessarily the preferred method of repair.
The collision industry, even early on, 'fixed' things in a manner that was actually leaning toward being quite crude. With the introduction of Bondo, things got even worse. Body men began abusing the products and therefore quality was even further compromised. It got to the point, that this became the known method of repairing automotive sheetmetal. Just skim coating is has become the norm. I have done more of this type of work than I care to admit, but I thankfully, I no longer have to do that.
I've been very fortunate to have been surrounded the past 4-5 years with guys who are true artists and have been willing to teach me how to properly iron out body panels without the use of body filler. We gotten into this discussion here at hotrodders.com before, and every time, I am misquoted or misunderstood on what I am trying to bring across. I'm not scolding anyone for using body filler, nor am I saying I'm better than anyone here. I simply believe that it's best to use no body filler if you can, rather than to go into a job with the intention of skim coating the entire body and thinking that's the proper way to do it. If that was the "proper" technique, Auburn, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, etc. would have been slathering their bodies with plastic of some sort from day one! (yes, I know it wasn't available then, but you catch my drift)
SPEED. That's what has prompted the use of body filler, not high quality standards.
If you're comfortable with having it smeared all over your car, then so be it, but I prefer not to use it, as I've been down that road and do not wish to go back.
Just five years ago, I would have slathered this fender with filler and called it good. In fact, I would have been pretty bitter if anyone would have come along and said it wan't done properly, nor to the highest standards possible. But, I do believe I would have asked him to show me how to do it that way. Here are a few pictures of that fender.
Notice the marks from the shrinking hammer, pick hammer and all sorts of other abusive techniques
Here it is after coloring it with a wide tipped magic marker and blocked to reveal the highs and lows.
This is after about a half hour of slapper and dolly work and running over it with the shrinking disc. The bead and the area about two inches above it were eventually replaced, but I do not have a photo on file of a close up shot.
Here is the set of fenders with the grill shell, just minutes before the customer picked them up. I spoke with him two weeks ago and he said he applied three coats of primer, blocked 'em out and painted 'em. He was extremely happy to not need any filler. I couldn't have fixed them any faster, and perhaps it would have taken longer, actually, to skim coat with filler, excluding the replacement areas.
Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint
www.metalmeet.com
Metal Finishing
Randy,
I'm very interested in this subject as I have a cab corner that I've fabricated and am down to the last bunch of imperfections. I'm not sure however to work them out. I spent a half a day with a finsihing hammer and dolly but they don't seem to be coming out.
A little guidance would be appreciated. My goal in all of this was to use as little body fill as possible but as I am only a beginner this may be setting the bar a little high.
I have included some pics of where I'm at and the dolly (home made from leaf spring) that I have been using.
Over all
![]()
Problem area
![]()
Inside of weld seam
![]()
Leaf Spring Dolly
![]()
PS: Your photos did not seem to come through, could you try posting them again - I'd like to have a look.
Thanks,
Kev
Randy,
I'm very interested in this subject as I have a cab corner that I've fabricated and am down to the last bunch of imperfections. I'm not sure however to work them out. I spent a half a day with a finsihing hammer and dolly but they don't seem to be coming out.
A little guidance would be appreciated. My goal in all of this was to use as little body fill as possible but as I am only a beginner this may be setting the bar a little high.
I have included some pics of where I'm at and the dolly (home made from leaf spring) that I have been using.
Over all
Problem area
Inside of weld seam
Leaf Spring Dolly
PS: Your photos did not seem to come through, could you try posting them again - I'd like to have a look.
Thanks,
Kev
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Hi Kev,
Looks to me like you've got a good start! The best way to learn how to shape metal is to get off the couch and make something. You've taken that step, and now you are well on your way to learning this craft. Good Job!
My suggestion would be to get rid of the proud weld on the inside of the panel, as this is limiting how smooth the overall panel will be. A 3" cut-off tool with a 3/32 or 1/16 wheel will remove this better than any other tool I've found. Carefully grind away the proud weld to within just a very few thousandths above the surface level. This will allow you to smooth it out even further and crush the weld into the surrounding area easier. A leaf spring slapper would be better than using a hammer too. That's a mostly flat panel and the hammer will only cause more shrinkage, so make yourself a slapper and you will find that it will give you more control and better results! As you near completion, you can remove the small remaining proud weld with a 120 grit disc on a 5" grinder or a Roloc disc wil work well also. Finish off with a worn 120 grit disc and cool with water immediately. You will amaze yourself by the results.
Looks to me like you've got a good start! The best way to learn how to shape metal is to get off the couch and make something. You've taken that step, and now you are well on your way to learning this craft. Good Job!
My suggestion would be to get rid of the proud weld on the inside of the panel, as this is limiting how smooth the overall panel will be. A 3" cut-off tool with a 3/32 or 1/16 wheel will remove this better than any other tool I've found. Carefully grind away the proud weld to within just a very few thousandths above the surface level. This will allow you to smooth it out even further and crush the weld into the surrounding area easier. A leaf spring slapper would be better than using a hammer too. That's a mostly flat panel and the hammer will only cause more shrinkage, so make yourself a slapper and you will find that it will give you more control and better results! As you near completion, you can remove the small remaining proud weld with a 120 grit disc on a 5" grinder or a Roloc disc wil work well also. Finish off with a worn 120 grit disc and cool with water immediately. You will amaze yourself by the results.
Randy,
Thanks for the info. I do have a slapper (again made from leaf spring) so I'll have a go at that. I did some work with my shrinking disk yesterday after doing some reading here. Almost all of the little imperfections came out however I ended up with a fair bit of distortion (oil can I think it's called) in the flat (rear) portion. So I had to turn around and do some streaching through that area to get that out.
Of course I then started wondering "how far should I go as I know there will be a lot of straightening to do once I weld this in place".
Thoughts?
Kev
Thanks for the info. I do have a slapper (again made from leaf spring) so I'll have a go at that. I did some work with my shrinking disk yesterday after doing some reading here. Almost all of the little imperfections came out however I ended up with a fair bit of distortion (oil can I think it's called) in the flat (rear) portion. So I had to turn around and do some streaching through that area to get that out.
Of course I then started wondering "how far should I go as I know there will be a lot of straightening to do once I weld this in place".
Thoughts?
Kev
Joined
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388 Posts
Hi Kev,
I wasn't aware you had a shrinking disc. You have one of the best tools for getting a guy out of a bind then. GREAT!!!
You want your panel to be as close to perfect as possible before welding it in. When you do get to the point of installing it, take your time and work the weld as you go. Tack it every 1", then go ahead and grind down the proud weld to only a few thousandths above the finished surface and crush the welds, working on dolly with your slapper. You'l have to hit fairy hard, but progress will be swift. A hammer could be used as well, but I normally cause too much stretching when I use a hammer to crush welds. Once you've got it tacked in and the tack welds are all worked and you have nice surface flow, go ahead and start stitch welding the panel in. I weld a short series of tack welds, overlapping each tack over the last by about 1/2 to 1/3 of the diameter of the tack. Only weld about a 1 inch long stitch weld, allow it to cool, remove the proud weld bead and work it just as you did the tack welds. You will see that you are in total control and the flow of the old panel and the new will be nice as smooth, just as if it were one solid sheet of metal. By crushing the welds, you are removing the distortion, (which is a result of the metal shrinking due to the heat introduced from the welding process) as well as cold forging the weld, further merging the two panels. This results in an extremely strong weld seam and when your finished welding, you're ready for primer, block sanding and paint. No need for that wasted step!!!
Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint
www.metalmeet.com
I wasn't aware you had a shrinking disc. You have one of the best tools for getting a guy out of a bind then. GREAT!!!
You want your panel to be as close to perfect as possible before welding it in. When you do get to the point of installing it, take your time and work the weld as you go. Tack it every 1", then go ahead and grind down the proud weld to only a few thousandths above the finished surface and crush the welds, working on dolly with your slapper. You'l have to hit fairy hard, but progress will be swift. A hammer could be used as well, but I normally cause too much stretching when I use a hammer to crush welds. Once you've got it tacked in and the tack welds are all worked and you have nice surface flow, go ahead and start stitch welding the panel in. I weld a short series of tack welds, overlapping each tack over the last by about 1/2 to 1/3 of the diameter of the tack. Only weld about a 1 inch long stitch weld, allow it to cool, remove the proud weld bead and work it just as you did the tack welds. You will see that you are in total control and the flow of the old panel and the new will be nice as smooth, just as if it were one solid sheet of metal. By crushing the welds, you are removing the distortion, (which is a result of the metal shrinking due to the heat introduced from the welding process) as well as cold forging the weld, further merging the two panels. This results in an extremely strong weld seam and when your finished welding, you're ready for primer, block sanding and paint. No need for that wasted step!!!
Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint
www.metalmeet.com
Randy,
That's great. I have had a little practice in doing just that. I had put some hand fabricated parts in my door (both inside and out) and things went fairly well. I used no filler on the inside portions as they were easier to hammer and dolly (due to access). I ended up using some filler on the outside as the pannel I put in was the lower half so getting at the inside of the weld seam was a pain. My welding has been coming along quite well also. Everything I'm welding is gas welded but after 3 or 4 months of welding and practicing almost daily is really starting to pay off. The other thing has been the info and advice I have been getting from you and this site as well as the Metal Shapers site and Metal Meet has been invaluable.
I'll try to keep you up on the progress.
Kev
That's great. I have had a little practice in doing just that. I had put some hand fabricated parts in my door (both inside and out) and things went fairly well. I used no filler on the inside portions as they were easier to hammer and dolly (due to access). I ended up using some filler on the outside as the pannel I put in was the lower half so getting at the inside of the weld seam was a pain. My welding has been coming along quite well also. Everything I'm welding is gas welded but after 3 or 4 months of welding and practicing almost daily is really starting to pay off. The other thing has been the info and advice I have been getting from you and this site as well as the Metal Shapers site and Metal Meet has been invaluable.
I'll try to keep you up on the progress.
Kev
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