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1957 chrysler windsor
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,
This is my first post on this forum and I'm almost at the end of my rope. I've looked through a lot of other threads and forums and some people have similar issues but really not the same. I hope someone has some insight.
The engine: 96 Vortec 350
-Stock internals
-Stock roller cam
-HEI didstibutor
-600 cfm holly
-no name aluminum intake (edlebrock knock off)
-G body "log" exhaust. (they are cheap and they fit in this tiny engine bay)

I am in college, so no money, but I am a sucker for power and I couldn't stand to keep rolling around with the tired old 4.3 in my s10. So...cheap and dirty v8 swap. The engine I have is a 96 vortec that I found in the dirt in my neighbor's yard, yes I said cheap AND dirty. He sold it to me cheap. I have no idea how many miles are on this engine. Did a visual inspection of the bottom end, took a couple caps off, moderate ware, did a comp test, good pressure and even, popped the heads off and was met with very fresh cylinder walls and not even the slightest hint of ring ridge. All said and done It had seen some use but seemed to be in good shape. I cleaned up the heads, valves set to 1/2 turn past zero lash, new gaskets all around (fel-pro set for the 96 vortec), installed the carb manifold and HEI, and swapped the 4.3 flex plate to the 350. but its basically a stock engine minus the computer stuff. Did the swap in two weeks.

Now to the issue and how it came to be:
Right off the bat, the engine ran poorly. Did some tuning and it improved, but the thing would diesel for 10-15 sec after I turned it off. This was strange to me because the heads are clean, no carbon. I lowered the idle and advanced the timing hoping to lower cylinder temps. It dieseled less frequently after that. It developed a misfire and I tracked that down to a couple of plug wires that got burned on the manifold and were arcing. Replaced them with the old 4.3 ones. now back to running pretty ok.

After I started driving it, it started running better, aside from hesitation issues which I am still fighting. It was fairly responsive and had good power. The oil pressure when hot is 5-10 psi at idle and 40-45psi on the highway (I use 10w-40). After some weeks of tuning the carb and getting the timing just right It was running well and even stopped dieseling, but the engine still ran a little rough at idle, not terrible, but just enough to annoy you. It annoyed me. I was thinking of other factors that may contribute to a rough Idle. I had already done all I could think of with the carb and the ignition even replaced the spark plugs. I also checked for vacuum leaks around the manifold with carb cleaner. no change in rpm. double checked with a vacuum gage. reading steady 16.5 in/merc at idle and steady 20 in/merc at part throttle. A little high even for high rpm in my opinion but there is very little restriction in the exhaust so this is beyond me. After all of this I settled on a the possibility that the timing chain might be stretched and I had not checked it on the stand. Sure enough I had about 5-7 degrees of slop, but when I installed the new timing set I STILL had 5-7 degrees of slop. Ended up going through 2 other timing sets before I got a single roller set that only had about 2 degrees of slop. Sealed it back up and it ran about the same, but the off idle hesitation wasn't as bad. I re-adjusted the valves thinking maybe I accidently had them too tight or even wiped out the cam. After I had the valve cover off, rocker movement was good and seemed consistent. I don't have a dial indicator so couldn't tell for sure, but nothing drastic stuck out. After the valve adjustment it did run better, but soon reverted back to a rough idle. I drove it for a few weeks and the rough idle is getting worse, but its here and there. Some days it runs like a top, no shakieness, no misfires. other days its awful.

The engine always runs very rough on start up and then levels out to just kinda bad when its warmed up.

The there are some consistent traits of this issue:
-No valve train or rotating assembly noise
-Soft bucking only when lightly letting off the brake at a stop, Bucking is not present when stopped or in a idle creep with no brake applied.
-The engine is visibly shaky on its mounts, but it's not excessive (1/8 to 1/4 inch side to side)
-When listening at the tailpipe there is what sounds like misfires or slight "poofs," but these are not as loud or as hard as a cylinder dropping out and they are erratic. They do not follow any specific cylinder or the engine's rhythm and will go away and come back at random. They are not present above 1500 rpm, but still appear under 1500 rpm under no load. Anything off idle while the engine is under load they are gone.

I have never dealt with an engine that is so fussy. It shakes worse then the 4.3 so something must be really wrong. I am not the one to throw parts at an issue so I haven't replaced anything unless I have good cause. The next thing I suspect is maybe I burned more wires then I thought and they are all trashed, but I don't see or hear any arcing that correlates with the baby misfires so it would have to be a resistance issue? It could be bad power to the distributor or even the distributor itself? but the thing is brand new! I've even thought that it might be that the lifters are collapsing? But I've been driven trucks with 350s that are ready to die and full of sludge and they misfire a bit, but they're smooth as butter otherwise.

Sorry for the long post. I am going out of my head with this and I've seen a lot of similar situations online, but non of them share all of my symptoms after the work I've already done, so I figure the devils in the details.
 

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Assuming the stock roller cam the vacuum readings sound correct.

What is the distributor?

How did you do the fuel system?

What spark plugs and gap?

The 4.3 flex plate should work, there are some guys that report not getting it aligned correctly with the crank then get shakes?

Did you retain the factory serpentine system?

Bogie
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Assuming the stock roller cam the vacuum readings sound correct.

What is the distributor?

How did you do the fuel system?

What spark plugs and gap?

The 4.3 flex plate should work, there are some guys that report not getting it aligned correctly with the crank then get shakes?

Did you retain the factory serpentine system?

Bogie
Speedway motors distributor.

Stock in tank electric fuel pump, two years old. High pressure from pump into a bypass fuel regulator on drivers inner fender, 6 psi to carb. 5/16 rubber hose routed over the power steering pump up the front of drivers head to carb. Pressure and return stock 5/16 steel line back to tank along frame. Stock inline fuel filter on pressure side mid frame.

Autolite Nickle core plugs gapped at 0.60

Flex plate fit well. Aligned with the roll pin in the crank snug. Visually the weight orientation looked identical. But I was in a pinch when I mounted it, maybe I fudged?

It has the serpentine accessory drive from the 4.3 including the crank pully.
 

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If you have or can borrow a volt meter and ohm the ignition wires, old carbon wires get breaks in them and the spark is having to jump these breaks on it's way to the plug.You end up with some cylinders firing okay and others not contributing as much.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If you have or can borrow a volt meter and ohm the ignition wires, old carbon wires get breaks in them and the spark is having to jump these breaks on it's way to the plug.You end up with some cylinders firing okay and others not contributing as much.
good call. I will check the resistance on the wires.
 

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What spark plugs and gap. The L31 head takes a 3/4 inch thread plug. Many HEI ignitions have trouble with spark gaps greater than .035 inch. This is especially a problem with low cost pieces. Also, if you retained the factory L31 roller cam or used any other roller cam the distributor must use either a Melonized or bronze gear not doing this will eat the cam’s driving gear, the distributor gear, or both. To add some misery GM and some aftermarket distributors use a .491 inch dia. shaft while many aftermarket units use a .500 inch shaft. To keep the fun going some aftermarket distributors that use the GM .491 shaft increase the size of the retaining pin. If you use a GM gear on these shafts it will not be operationally tight enough which will throw the timing off as the shaft slips relative to the gear till finally the pin or the shaft fails. The plug wires that worly best are spiral wound you can get something like the lower end Taylor’s for a reasonable price and they work extremely well and last a long time, a lot of bang for your buck.

What did you do for a coolant pump? The Vortec pump has a number of inlets and outlets that don’t fit a carbureted intake. At the same time you need to provide a bypass for when the thermostat is closed as GM eliminated the internal bypass on most of the L31 engines, some 96’s retain it but its soon gone.

The SBC unless using a radical cam idles smoothly, shake at idle can be ignition failure as in a miss or late fire, causes here range from module problems, secondary wires and boots, to spark plugs. Or it can be fuel distribution problems, given the L31 heads have no exhaust for a manifold heat cross over, in cool to cold weather, especially with high humidity the fuel distribution port to port can vary enough to make the engine miss or late fire. The high humidity added to this can include icing within the intake.

What did you do for a damper if anything, the L31, Vortec is different as the assembly uses a position sensor that is in the timing cover. For a carb conversion the position sensor is not used, you can just not wire it to anything to my favorite thing is to redo everything from the timing set forward to back date it with a double roller chain and gears, metal case cover, and conventional damper. Double roller cam drives for the roller capable and roller installed blocks usually need the main oil galley boss that extends into the timing case to have the top of the boss milled down to clear the inside of the cam gear.

There’s lots of little pitfalls to be aware of.

Bogie
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
What spark plugs and gap. The L31 head takes a 3/4 inch thread plug. Many HEI ignitions have trouble with spark gaps greater than .035 inch. This is especially a problem with low cost pieces. Also, if you retained the factory L31 roller cam or used any other roller cam the distributor must use either a Melonized or bronze gear not doing this will eat the cam’s driving gear, the distributor gear, or both. To add some misery GM and some aftermarket distributors use a .491 inch dia. shaft while many aftermarket units use a .500 inch shaft. To keep the fun going some aftermarket distributors that use the GM .491 shaft increase the size of the retaining pin. If you use a GM gear on these shafts it will not be operationally tight enough which will throw the timing off as the shaft slips relative to the gear till finally the pin or the shaft fails. The plug wires that worly best are spiral wound you can get something like the lower end Taylor’s for a reasonable price and they work extremely well and last a long time, a lot of bang for your buck.

What did you do for a coolant pump? The Vortec pump has a number of inlets and outlets that don’t fit a carbureted intake. At the same time you need to provide a bypass for when the thermostat is closed as GM eliminated the internal bypass on most of the L31 engines, some 96’s retain it but its soon gone.

The SBC unless using a radical cam idles smoothly, shake at idle can be ignition failure as in a miss or late fire, causes here range from module problems, secondary wires and boots, to spark plugs. Or it can be fuel distribution problems, given the L31 heads have no exhaust for a manifold heat cross over, in cool to cold weather, especially with high humidity the fuel distribution port to port can vary enough to make the engine miss or late fire. The high humidity added to this can include icing within the intake.

What did you do for a damper if anything, the L31, Vortec is different as the assembly uses a position sensor that is in the timing cover. For a carb conversion the position sensor is not used, you can just not wire it to anything to my favorite thing is to redo everything from the timing set forward to back date it with a double roller chain and gears, metal case cover, and conventional damper. Double roller cam drives for the roller capable and roller installed blocks usually need the main oil galley boss that extends into the timing case to have the top of the boss milled down to clear the inside of the cam gear.

There’s lots of little pitfalls to be aware of.

Bogie
It definitely seems like things are pointing to a strange ignition issue. Interesting what you said about the clearance issues with the distributor shaft and gear. This is my daily so I've put some miles and beatings on it sense the swap. If this is worst case scenario and the gear is the is not melonized (I know its not bronze) then how can I tell what a melonized gear looks like/ what is a test I can do on the gear to prove this? how can I tell that the cam is suffering? What kind of scoring can I expect to see on the distributor gear if i pull it out? What is an allowable backlash from cam to distributor, say if I had a dial indicator on the rotor and moved the crank back and forth, taking into account the timing chain slop, or even just twittle the rotor by hand? Also, if this is the issue shouldn't I expect to see the mark on the balancer jump around dramatically with a timing light at idle?

I have the coolant pump from the 4.3 and no thermostat (I live in Texas). The bypass is plugged. Cools great! stays at 180 degrees driving and never goes over 205 degrees even in traffic.

Even though there is no exhaust cross over, the behavior of the engine is the same in all weather.

It has the original damper for the 96 5.7 and I was going to install a double roller and clearance the oil galley like you mentioned, but I bought the wrong set and the cam gear didn't fit. I was running out of time (daily driver and had to get to class on tuesday) so I had to go with an auto parts store set. I did replace the cover with a holly aluminum one with a block off for the crank sensor, because a non-reusable plastic cover is just dumb and I here they tend to leak.

Thanks for all the good info. I'm in finals week right now, but once I get the chance im going to narrow down possible ignition issues. I'm definitely replacing the plug wires. looked under the hood yesterday and they seem to not be in the best of shape and need to be rerouted because they are just too close to the manifolds and are not tethered in the right spots, Still no arcing tho.

I will update what I find in a little bit.

-Dan
 

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If you can locate someone with a dist machine, have them give it a spin to see if spark is stable. I learned this the har way on my car, I bought a new cheap dist, ran like crap. Thinking it was the timing curve I found a local guy with a dist machine so we could set up weights and curve. When he gave it a spin, spark was all over the place. We put original GM dist in and spark was stable. Upon taking caps off we found the weights and mounts were just not the same as GM quality.
There is a high probability the speedway unit is of same quality as my cheap new hot spark distributor.

If you have any old GM hei around take cap off to compare, heck go to a junk yard and have a look, maybe grab a stock GM unit while there and throw it in for testing.

there is a good chance your new cheap dist gear is melonized, see it is made as generic as possible for any engine. I believe melonized will have a daul grey cast look to it where a non will smooth hard black look.
Good luck, I think it’s in your spark, if you can locate dist machine it will rule it out and save time and money, you could check with a few of the really old mom and pop repair shops to see if they have one in corner or if they know who has one.
 

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.060 is way big. Start at .030 or .035 at most.
If the timing mark flashes look stable at idle and at rpm, they most likely are okay.
Carb okay? adjusted properly? Cleaned properly? Air bleeds and power valve? Fuel pressure stable?

I'm curious as too the tight valve theory, it's easy to get them too tight without poly locks. Poly's you can run down with your fingers and when they close up the gap you get a solid feel. Not so much with the stock rocker ball nuts and their swedged design provides way more resistance. Wiggling the PR up/down instead of spinning it is a lot easier to feel the lash close up.
Since you have some play room there, it doesn't hurt to back off the rocker nuts another 1/4-3/8 turn and see if things improve.
 

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In theory, if not practice, unless you totally collapse a lifter taking all the movement out of the lifter’s piston or don’t apply any preload so the piston is against its retainer, between those two end extremes the piston should hold whatever amount of preload you gave it. In other words too tight of an adjustment shouldn’t result in the valve being open until the piston is adjusted into contact with the inside bottom of the lifter.

Bogie
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hey guys I'm back with an update:

Over the past few weeks I've been able to get wrenching here and there. As suggested, I re-gapped the spark plugs to 0.035 and got a hardy set of plug wires from JEGS (8.5mm). No change. I could not locate a distributer machine or anyone that would test the module, so I installed a pertronix "flame thrower" ignition module and made sure I had a good key on power source. My understanding is that these hi-po modules are most helpful with keeping consistent spark at high rpm, but the sucker loves it. Runs better but... still the rough idle persists.

On to things aside from ignition, I ran another compression test just to be sure. Nothing of concern. Compression ranges from 170psi at its lowest and 185psi at its highest. I started to suspect that I might have an internal vacuum leak. I read up on some other sources for this type of set up and people mentioned that the gaskets for the original intake did not seal well on a carb manifold. So I got a fel-pro set that is the steel reinforced, rubber molded type. I did find a very small blow out in one of the ports on the old gaskets when I removed the manifold, but it was actually sealing quite well. Installed the new gaskets and put it all back together... still idles all shaky. I was still on the train of thought that this seemed like some type of vacuum leak so I pinched off all the vacuum lines thinking that maybe my brake booster or HVAC controls had a leak. Still idles poorly.

I really don't know what else this could be. I'm thinking now that maybe its a burned or slightly bent valve. I mentioned previously that there are random misfires present. so maybe as the valve is spinning on its seat it seals up good in one spot comes back around to the bad spot and has some weak fires and repeat. But if it were a burned or bent valve I would expect pops at rpm and a drastically faster degrade of performance as the valve is eaten away by the combustion leaking past. on top of that the engine idles rough all around and the misfires are random, although they are beginning to be more of a straight drop out instead of a weak fire. Even when the misfires are not present (they come and go) the idle is still shaky. The engine has almost no blow by, compression is good, no noise, no vacuum leaks, good spark, plugs are not fowled.

The carb on the other hand leaves much to be desired. To be honest, its tuned very poorly and there is a hesitation issue. But I do have the mixture correct from what I can tell. Warmed up, e brake on, in gear, I close the screws up till the engine just starts to stumble then go back an 1/8 turn. I've tried running it a little richer, a little leaner, super rich, super lean, the idle is still just rough. From what it I've witnessed, this doesn't seem to be a carb issue, but I'm not willing to rule it out completely.

Since my last post I have taken this chevy on two 200 mile plus trips plus driven it almost every day. she starts every time. She cruises no problem, never broke down. gets me where I need to go without complaint, will smoke the tires no problem. But once I hit the stop light. I'm bucking a little bit. I'm shaking. A little misfire here and there. It's not violently rough and she holds a consistent rpm, but it is very much noticeable. Then on the gas again, she's smooth and zaamo I take off and there's a smile on my face, but I dread that next stop light when I transform into the shake box. it Idles a little better in park then it does in gear under load, but that is the trend, low rpm shaky shaky.

Any more suggestions much appreciated.

-Dan
 

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What model 600 holley are you running? Is it an 1850 or 80457 vacuum secondary by chance? If you look at the front of the carburetor on the choke tower on the driver side of the choke there is a set of number stamped on it for example 1850-10 and or 80457-10 and there are four number below it like for an example 1219. Don't worry about the bottom numbers as that is just the day and year it was made.

My question is how are your throttle positions on your carb setup? You want to make sure your primary transfer slot is at least showing no more then about .040 at the most but no less then around .020 give or take a hair as you need just a tiny bit of transfer slot showing or it can cause an off idle stumble that sometimes can be thought of as a pump shot problem. Also do you know how much your secondary side is open up? With your vortec being stock that carb should be pretty close but maybe it needs a rebuild and cleaned out all the way around and the kit you can get if its the one I listed above is 37-119 from Holley and it will allow you do to a complete rebuild minus having a vacuum diaphragm for the secondary side.

When adjust your idle mixture screws you start them at 1 1/2 turns out then start to turn the driver side one in till the motor just starts to shake then back it back out a 1/4 of a turn and do the same with the other side. Just out of curiosity where are your screws at at the present time? Normally with the good range and close to ideal idle calibration on the carburetor on a engine like yours being bone stock the idle mixture screws would be around somewhere between maybe 1 turn out on both sides at the leanest to no more then maybe 1 3/4 or so at the most but that would be on the slightly to lean side if that were so but that carb unless its been messed with should be almost right on.

If its a 600 double pumper then that is a whole other story. I would take your carb off and see where your throttle is positioned at and also do you have your vacuum advance hooked up to timed port which is on the metering block or do you have it on full manifold? You want to make sure you not running to much vacuum advance and I would recommend limiting it to around 12 to 14 degrees with a MSD vacuum advance limiter plate.

Sounds like to me your carb might need rebuilt and cleaned out and the passages blown out with compressed air and if you don't have an air compressor get a can of compressed air from Walmart in the electronics department and use it. I used a holley 600 vacuum secondary once on a bone stock 305 late 80's small block and it ran just fine. If your carb has already been built then it could be a host of other things.
 

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Also on the iron vortec heads the spark plugs length is .708 and not the typical .750 length like most modern aluminum small block chevy heads take. I have seen folks put the shorter taper plus in the heads by mistake and have problems as they thought they took the same spark plugs like the old smog heads that small block chevy heads use to have back in the pre vortec days.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Also on the iron vortec heads the spark plugs length is .708 and not the typical .750 length like most modern aluminum small block chevy heads take. I have seen folks put the shorter taper plus in the heads by mistake and have problems as they thought they took the same spark plugs like the old smog heads that small block chevy heads use to have back in the pre vortec days.
When you say length are you talking about the taper to electrode length( "length of threds") or the hex to plug socket length (the ceramic part)?
 

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The old iron heads had a .430 length thread reach and the vortec plugs take a .708 reach thread and all of the aluminum aftermarket cylinder heads I have seen take a .750 plug thread reach is what I was referring too. Not to the end of the tip of the plug strap itself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
What model 600 holley are you running? Is it an 1850 or 80457 vacuum secondary by chance? If you look at the front of the carburetor on the choke tower on the driver side of the choke there is a set of number stamped on it for example 1850-10 and or 80457-10 and there are four number below it like for an example 1219. Don't worry about the bottom numbers as that is just the day and year it was made.

My question is how are your throttle positions on your carb setup? You want to make sure your primary transfer slot is at least showing no more then about .040 at the most but no less then around .020 give or take a hair as you need just a tiny bit of transfer slot showing or it can cause an off idle stumble that sometimes can be thought of as a pump shot problem. Also do you know how much your secondary side is open up? With your vortec being stock that carb should be pretty close but maybe it needs a rebuild and cleaned out all the way around and the kit you can get if its the one I listed above is 37-119 from Holley and it will allow you do to a complete rebuild minus having a vacuum diaphragm for the secondary side.

When adjust your idle mixture screws you start them at 1 1/2 turns out then start to turn the driver side one in till the motor just starts to shake then back it back out a 1/4 of a turn and do the same with the other side. Just out of curiosity where are your screws at at the present time? Normally with the good range and close to ideal idle calibration on the carburetor on a engine like yours being bone stock the idle mixture screws would be around somewhere between maybe 1 turn out on both sides at the leanest to no more then maybe 1 3/4 or so at the most but that would be on the slightly to lean side if that were so but that carb unless its been messed with should be almost right on.

If its a 600 double pumper then that is a whole other story. I would take your carb off and see where your throttle is positioned at and also do you have your vacuum advance hooked up to timed port which is on the metering block or do you have it on full manifold? You want to make sure you not running to much vacuum advance and I would recommend limiting it to around 12 to 14 degrees with a MSD vacuum advance limiter plate.

Sounds like to me your carb might need rebuilt and cleaned out and the passages blown out with compressed air and if you don't have an air compressor get a can of compressed air from Walmart in the electronics department and use it. I used a holley 600 vacuum secondary once on a bone stock 305 late 80's small block and it ran just fine. If your carb has already been built then it could be a host of other things.
Carb reads 80457-13. It is a vacuum secondary. I bought it new from Holly after dealing with a strange 60s AMC vacuum secondary Holley with two metering blocks!? Could not find the right rebuild kit and the parts guys told me it was not even in his parts book. Put it together using newer style needle and seats and two kits, I couldn't stop it from running obserdly rich and could find much info on the carb or a correct kit. so I bought the brand new 600 I have now.

They claim its set from the factory with a base tuning and it did start right up and run, but the hesitation and rough idle has been an issue from the start. I have since messed with the mixture and changed the pump nozzle size with not much improvement. Right now the mixture screws are about 3/4 out, which from the info in your post might be too lean. And I'm running the size 31 pump nozzle it came with right now. I did have the primary blades set properly at one point with the transfer ports showing roughly what you described, but I messed with the idle yesterday in frustration so I'll have to pull the carb off and check it. I am running vacuum advance and have it at the mettered port on the metering block. Base timing is at 12 degrees before TDC. I don't know how much the secondary slots are open. Looking down the carb, the slots I'm seeing are not even close to the secondary blades. Is there even a way to set the secondaries aside from the diaphragm spring?

The fuel in my tank is the first fuel to hit this carb, so I haven't considered a full rebuild, but the idle issue is worsening little by little, so there could be some junk in there making it worse.

Plus, it used to just be an off idle hesitation. Now there is what feels like a hesitation when the secondaries open. At half throttle if I juice it she falls on her face and then picks up. That's new.

Because the issue has been there from the start and this is an off the shelf carb I didn't consider the carb to be a main issue. Seemed like something else was the main culprit, but I will go ahead and do a rebuild and make sure she is adjusted correctly before I move on.

Could jetting be an issue here? I don't know what size jets it has in it now, but I haven't messed with any of that. I would think that the jets its got out of the box should be fine for this application, it being a stock 350.

-Dan
 
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