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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi there, eyes are burning from reading so many TC articles - and thought id get some advice from the pros here:

I would like some recommendations for my setup and also have some basic questions regarding stall, economy, shift kits, etc.. Id like as much nominal performance as a daily driver without turning my car into a gas hog as i want to do some trips in it as well.

My Specs:
77 camaro +- 3400lbs
L31 heads (stock)
Long tube headers 1 3/4 - 3" collectors
Lunati 10120101 cam (214/224/112)
Q-jet
AirGap intake
Stock pistons
3.42 rear
15" rear tires
200-4R trans
2 true 2 1/4 duals - fitting x-pipe soon

Car runs fine, but feels very lazy on shifts and accelaration.. Im getting around 19-20 mpg on highway. I think stock TC's stalled around 1500.

Should i get a higher stall and shift kit, and is it possible my trans is worn out and slipping? (guess thats rhetoric - was signs could I look out for if the clutches are worn?) Trans doesnt get hot at all..

Now my cam range is 1500-5500 and I calculated cruise rpm around 2200-2400, so would a 2200-2400 stall make sense? Could I get a 2600 or would that possibly cause issues/heat? Will the lock up kit over ride the stall in 4th?

Would i lose highway economy with a higher stall or can i get a higher stall and still get similar close mileage as i am now?

How do i know if my TC i lockup or not? (stock 200-4r TC)

I know this has been discussed many times but each car is slightly different, I think my build is a general 1st build route without any drastic mods..


This article suggests I look in the 2400-2800 range -
http://www.hughesperformance.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76&Itemid=54

Of course id like more street performance (dont mind losing economy there) - i just like to keep current highway mpg if possible.. so i guess im tossing between 2200 or 2800.. Thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
this article suggests a 3000+ stall because my cams advertised duration is 280/290 - is that accurate?
Chevy Torque Converter - Power Spin - Tech - Chevy Performance Magazine All Pages

...

to quote:

Stall Converter Combinations


  • There is a lot of technical jargon involved, but for the sake of getting to the point, here are some professional suggestions.
    A vehicle weighing around 2,800 lbs. with a highway gear of no lower than 2.70 and a 4-speed overdrive that does around 2,000 RPM at 60 with no more than 180 bhp, uses a 2,500 RPM stall converter.

    The same situation as above, but with a modified engine with 240 bhp or better and an RPM limit of 7,500, uses a 3,500 stall to get into the preferred RPM band quickly. Use a wider, stickier tire.

    A vehicle weighing 3,600 to 3,800 lbs. with a highway gear and an overdrive and 240 to 350 bhp and 300 foot-pounds of torque uses a 3,500 stall. This will produce the best ET for the hp rating.

    Same weight class, lower gear such as 3.73 to 4.11, horsepower rating of 375 to 450 with 420 plus torque rating, uses a 3,000 street and strip or 3,800 strip stall.

    Same weight, low gear 3.73 to 4.11, horsepower rating 500 to 685 with 550 plus torque, uses a 2,500 to 2,800 stall. This will give a much better controllable 60 foot time without just spinning the tires with this much torque. With the right rubber, this can give a 1.2 or better 60 foot.

    A 3,000 lbs. car with a modified suspension (4-link rear with 4.11 to 4.56 or lower gear), a modified 200R transmission and a modified engine with overhead cams, or using stud girdles on a conventional cam with a large turbo putting out in excess of 850 horsepower and about the same in torque, uses a 4,000 to 4,500 stall. For a super charger, use 1,500 to 2,200 stall.

Read more: http://www.ehow.com/how-does_4881893_right-stall-speed-torque-converter.html#ixzz2xdmm35mf
 

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Fastarocka.......Do yourself a favor and give this guy a call, it will save you a LOT of time and money. His name is Michael Reeves and he owns "Freakshow Converters" (325) 701-7830. He's a one man shop and builds all kinds of converters, from race to diesel tow trucks.

The guy REALLY knows his stuff and will take all of your specs and info and tell what you need for your combo. I think he usually gets around $325-350 for a mild street converter and thats with lots of good upgrades plus free shipping.

He doesn't have a website but if you go to yellowbullet.com and do a search for freakshow you'll see a ton of satisfied customers....worth a call.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
hi thanks, yeah I think ive come to about 2200/2400, not to sound like a jam but ima bit budget resticted, and a 2400 b&m for the price i can get is a bit of a steal..

thanks though, ive since concluded that stall is irrelevant on lockup / highway so i can sratch off the highway stall factor, for street im sure ill be making power around 2000 at least so going from stock to 2400 for street wd be great, any more might be a bit too coslty on town economy..
 

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Discussion Starter #7
stall speed converter

I have a 700r4 in my T Bucket with a 383 and a 3.73 rear. A cam close to what you have. Also have a 26" tall tire. I am using a stock 2400 converter. The trans guy said it was for a 4 cyl s-10 truck. It has the lock up in it.

Now with all that I find that when the converter locks at 45 mph. The cam is too big I am only running about 1200 rpms and it wants to chug and surge. My car wants more gear or less cam.

That 3.73 in OD turns into about a 2.6 rear end and lock the converter and it is a dog. Get up to about 75-80 and it comes alive.

Just some food for thought for ya.


what most OD folks dont get is you can gear down to 3rd on slow cruisin/hill climbs so your revs are higher..
 

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Discussion Starter #8
ok - done a lot more reading. Since I have a lockup trans stall is not applicable to highway cruising since it locks up in 4th any way...

I have entered my specs in dyno-sim and appear to have a torque curve that seems pretty flat from 2000 up (i cant actually see lower rpms)..

im tossing between a 2400 and a 3000 at the mo.

One thing i do want is to be able to jump into power from a 45mph cruise - not sure what diff there will be between a 2400 and a 3000 there. from launch alot more i know.

And yes, will invariably have to upgrade my rear tires to mickey thompsons it appears. at the mo i ice skating around town if i lightly mash it, not to mention when its raining..
 

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Fstarocka: I merged your new post to a very old thread , to this thread.

Lets avoid posting to 7+ yr old threads where the answers have been given and the OP is long gone in some cases
 

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Since the 200R4 uses a lockup torque converter that uses a torque converter clutch) this opens up possibilities for performance torque converters AND still getting great fuel economy for cruising.

Personally in your setup I would go with a 2800-3000rpm TC.

I have a stock GM OEM TC from a V6 truck and placed it behind my Vortec 350. If I hold the brakes on hard, and go to WOT I can get the tach to read 2800rpm with the rear tires stationary.

This is where I found the info for my TC swap. SOme of the info is applicable to your 200r4, but not a lot of it. The K-Codes are listed(stall speeds).
On the highway your fuel economy should remain the same as the TCC locks your crankshaft rpm and transmission input shaft together at the same rpm. You have a lighter vehicle as well which can use a little extra stall speed.
If you dont do much stoplight to stop light performance a 2500-2600 stall might be suited better to you. I would hate for you to buy a TC and not have enough stall speed.
The correct TC will certainly wake up the acceleration of a car and helps torque recovery during upshifts.(the 200r4 has great gearing anyways, not much of an issue unlike the 700r4).
All 200R4's use a lockup TC from the factory. I'm not 100% sure of all teh 200r4's lockup strategies, but I know there are ways to force the 200r4 to lockup in 2nd gear, just in case you wanted in town lockup ability. Some of the truck 700r4s would lock in 2nd 3rd and 4th. My 89 Silverado 700r4 would lock in all 3 gears.

You ask about improvements from 45mph. A performance TC will help acceleration from ANY speed, so long as the TCC is unlocked, NOT just from a dead stop. WHenever you apply throttle, the TC will allow for greater torque multiplication. Its kind of like riding a 2 stroke dirt bike. WHenever you want faster acceleration you slip the clutch a bit along with throttle application, this allows the engine up into its powerband and away you go. Same thing in you car, just not as peaky.
The only issue I have with some less expensive TC manufacturers is that they simply bend the blades until the desired stall speed is reached. This kills efficiency, and can make your trans feel mushy, like its slipping all teh time. Its really hard to explain in words.
Unfortunatley TC's made by Precision Industries(Vigilante) and Yank, Circle D TC's can get expensive, but they are certaiinly worth it.

Dont worry about a performance TC adding heat unless you are towing something. Thats when temps might get out of control. Just make sure your trans to rad cooler is hooked up, if you get worried, you can also add an aux. trans cooler if desired.

peace
Hog
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Great info thanks. just what I was looking for.. I will look into my options. Really can't afford a 300+ dollar tc.. there's a 2200 to 2500 on eBay for 169.. later I'll add a shift kit as well as funds allow :)

My torque curve shows great torque from 2000 up.. so i guess higher stall will be more HP related.. its a simulated graph but at the mo the power is pretty awesome.. just a bit lazy..
 

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Great info thanks. just what I was looking for.. I will look into my options. Really can't afford a 300+ dollar tc.. there's a 2200 to 2500 on eBay for 169.. later I'll add a shift kit as well as funds allow :)

My torque curve shows great torque from 2000 up.. so i guess higher stall will be more HP related.. its a simulated graph but at the mo the power is pretty awesome.. just a bit lazy..
Biggest problem I find with "new to stall converters" guys buying stall converters are this....they buy based on price, and they are often too afraid to buy enough stall for the job and go too small...which is what I feel you are doing...a 2200-2400 stall is not going to feel like much to you, and I think you will end up feeling disappointed.

You want the torque converter to jump 600-800 rpm at least, into the heart of your powerband, not just to the beginning edge of it...... and if you were racing this package all the time, I would say 3600 4000 stall minimum if you were really serious on good drag performance.

I realize you are not racing, but feel you would really be amazed at how well 2800-3000 stall will help you on your street package. Hogg has told you the same thing. Don't be too conservative, as you have lock-up.
 

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Great info thanks. just what I was looking for.. I will look into my options. Really can't afford a 300+ dollar tc.. there's a 2200 to 2500 on eBay for 169.. later I'll add a shift kit as well as funds allow :)

My torque curve shows great torque from 2000 up.. so i guess higher stall will be more HP related.. its a simulated graph but at the mo the power is pretty awesome.. just a bit lazy..
Biggest problem I find with "new to stall converters" guys buying stall converters are this....they buy based on price, and they are often too afraid to buy enough stall for the job and go too small...which is what I feel you are doing...a 2200-2400 stall is not going to feel like much to you, and I think you will end up feeling disappointed.

You want the torque converter to jump 600-800 rpm at least, into the heart of your powerband, not just to the beginning edge of it...... and if you were racing this package all the time, I would say 3600 4000 stall minimum if you were really serious on good drag performance.

I realize you are not racing, but feel you would really be amazed at how well 2800-3000 stall will help you on your street package. Hogg has told you the same thing. Don't be too conservative, as you have lock-up.

Cheap converters are the ones that are almost always the "mushy" feeling ones, with hammered over bent fins.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
It was a balance of budget and avilability. Right now there is nothing close to 3000 for $169. Closest i could get was 2600 which i feel is close enough..

I spent 45 mins on the line to tci, and the chap reckoned off the line a 3000 will punish the 2500, but in everything else (rolling accel) not much of a difference.

I realize my torque seems beefy from 2000 up, its the HP that increase dramatically.. not so much the torque.

Ill see if i can administer patience for a higher stall and wait for a deal - otherwise i might just go for the 2600. From a stock 1500 im sure ill notice quite a diff..

anyway - tx for the info, ive learnt ALOT more about stall in the last 3 daysthan i ever thought, alot of mysteries have been cleared :)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Biggest problem I find with "new to stall converters" guys buying stall converters are this....they buy based on price, and they are often too afraid to buy enough stall for the job and go too small...which is what I feel you are doing...a 2200-2400 stall is not going to feel like much to you, and I think you will end up feeling disappointed.

You want the torque converter to jump 600-800 rpm at least, into the heart of your powerband, not just to the beginning edge of it...... and if you were racing this package all the time, I would say 3600 4000 stall minimum if you were really serious on good drag performance.

I realize you are not racing, but feel you would really be amazed at how well 2800-3000 stall will help you on your street package. Hogg has told you the same thing. Don't be too conservative, as you have lock-up.

Cheap converters are the ones that are almost always the "mushy" feeling ones, with hammered over bent fins.

Does it not make sense to argue that since my torque is quite super beefy from 2k up, that a 2600 stall would be a far into the powerband, and anything higher would be a matter of more unnecessary TC slippage AND heat?

Since im well into the powerband pushing for 3000 might not make much of a difference? Wish i could take both for a drive and see!!

:)
 

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With that mild cam 1800 stall max. If your on a budget you can get a stock v6 converter which would have about a 1825 stall and wake up the engine a bit. But if you're car feels lazy after 20 MPH it's not the stall converter it's something else with the engine. Get a vacuum gauge and timing light and check the basics. How do you know your carb is tuned properly and you've got a good AFR under acceleration?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
got vac hooked up for the first time.. getting around 16 inches at idle.. tuned the mixture screws lean til it bogged then richer till i got highest idle and found the dead zone - (no more changes) and backed it slightly lean again..

Ive just swapped from an airgap with 1" spacer to performer intake with no spacer, still trying to see if there's a difference.. might have noticed a drop in bottom end - still playing with tune etc..
 
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