another way to remove that skin is to grind all the edges of the door where skin overlaps door frame itself. Then its easy to peel whole thing off
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I was not trying to pick an arguement. There are people here that will benefit from that tutorial. My concern is that people that have not done many door skins on the newer cars, will try to grind enough to remove the hammer marks, thinning the metal. I would rather they had to use a light wipe of filler or primer, than to ruin a door skin that could easily cost them $200+, by grinding on it, thinking that they can grind out the hammer marks.
I have done many skins. When I see one come in, my forearm gets tired.
I know it takes alot of hammering to get them right. I also know that someone that hasn't done them, will try to rush to get it done, and likely end up with marks that are deeper than what is safe to sand/grind out. That's all I was trying to point out.
Aaron
I have done many skins. When I see one come in, my forearm gets tired.
I know it takes alot of hammering to get them right. I also know that someone that hasn't done them, will try to rush to get it done, and likely end up with marks that are deeper than what is safe to sand/grind out. That's all I was trying to point out.Aaron
The warning is a good idea Aaron. However, these panels can be "ground" a little without harm. We are not talking grinding severe dents all the way around the hem until the whole folded over metal is cut to tin foil. HOWEVER, your warning is DAMN important because that is exactly what someone may do if not for the warning.adtkart said:I was not trying to pick an arguement. There are people here that will benefit from that tutorial. My concern is that people that have not done many door skins on the newer cars, will try to grind enough to remove the hammer marks, thinning the metal. I would rather they had to use a light wipe of filler or primer, than to ruin a door skin that could easily cost them $200+, by grinding on it, thinking that they can grind out the hammer marks.
I have done many skins. When I see one come in, my forearm gets tired.
Aaron
I have to say that being "late model" doesn't have a whole lot to do with it. First off, cars will have all kinds of thicknesses of metal. A Lexus LS430 has 18 guage quarter panels!! While the same in a Toyota Corolla is 22. My apprentice at work just yesterday did a Mitsubishi SUV (what ever the thing is called) and it had a remarkably thick door skin. He did cut the inside lip here and there just as Eric layed out and produced an absolutly stunning job, Zero filler inside or out with a perfect fit. So it can be done and with no damage to the skins integrity. HOWEVER, as you point out, it "could" be ground thru if not for the mentor watching over his shoulder.
But he has the hang of it now and will go on to do them on a regular basis.
I do a couple of things different than Eric, in fact we chatted about this a number of years ago. I hem the panel completly off the car then trial fit it and do the upper welds and it is done. I have never seen a reason to partially hem it, then install it on the car and finish it. If it works, than who am I to say he is wrong. But I don't see a need to do that.
On older cars or repro panels, DAMN right I would do that to some degree. But with a late model car, those skins fit so nice on the door they just don't move that much. What I do is not to remove the "dirt" marks or "overspray" on the edges up at the top where the old skin ends. OR pay close attention any guide holes or marks in the shell. Many times there will be marks that the skin and the shell were lined up. When I install the new one I simply line them up the same as they were. Even if they were off a little, I put them back exactly as they were. In doing this I can be assured that I can hem the door completly, hang it on the hinges bolted right were it was an it WILL fit.
Removing the door skin off the shell is the second step, FIRST you have to look how it fits the "Hole" now. AND repair the shell to be sure the new skin will fit perfect. Then, when removing the skin it is VERY easy to damage the shell when they are glued as most are these days. If you remove the skin without damaging the shell AND the shell was repaired if needed to make it fit well around the outer gaps, putting a skin on and completly heming it is not like tossing dice.
Brian
Too much work? I have about 1hr invested in doing that skin.tab said:
Brian, you sound like the guys at work
They all say just skin it and be done with it. I just cant do that, I guess once you've been biten you are somewhat trigger shy. That extra 5 mins it takes to testfit that half hemmed door is worth it IMO.Have you tried the air hammer method yet? It makes life so much easier, the only time I need to use a body hammer is on the corners...Eric
Eric, no I havn't used the air hammer to flange it, old dog you know. I do have the proper hammer that we discussed but I always forget to try it.
On the trial fitting, sure I do a trail fit, just not as "early" in the process as you do. Believe me Eric, I have been bitten but good too. This is what I want you to do. Tell me over door skins you have done in the past year or so, how many upon trial fitting needed to be moved? I will bet not many to zero. Trust yourself, you will find that it is a easier to completely hem it, THEN trial fit it, make a few minor adjustments with a spoon on an edge or two and you are done.
"Twisting" the door, yep, that is often needed, a fully hemmed panel will easily allow that. Actually "moving" the panel up or down or forward or back, I just don't find a need for that. And rarely do I need to move the door by hinges forward or back. This Mitisbishi yesterday, with the shouldered studs on the door for zero alignment we just set it on, tightened the bolts and shut the door to a perfect fit. I just made sure that it was back on the shell EXACTLY were the old one was. I started out years ago making small templates of the edges to the shell, to the window frame, etc. Then match those templates to the new skin in those same areas. That worked pretty neat, but over the years I saw that everytime if I just paid particular attention to the skin as it went on the templates fit exactly the same everytime. I never needed to move it much at all, so why not just skip that step? So I just pay close attention to putting the skin right where it was. I don't clean off the overspray at the top of the panel to be sure that the new one goes exactly where the old one was, works everytime.
Brian
I do have the proper hammer that we discussed but I always forget to try it. On the trial fitting, sure I do a trail fit, just not as "early" in the process as you do. Believe me Eric, I have been bitten but good too. This is what I want you to do. Tell me over door skins you have done in the past year or so, how many upon trial fitting needed to be moved? I will bet not many to zero. Trust yourself, you will find that it is a easier to completely hem it, THEN trial fit it, make a few minor adjustments with a spoon on an edge or two and you are done.
"Twisting" the door, yep, that is often needed, a fully hemmed panel will easily allow that. Actually "moving" the panel up or down or forward or back, I just don't find a need for that. And rarely do I need to move the door by hinges forward or back. This Mitisbishi yesterday, with the shouldered studs on the door for zero alignment we just set it on, tightened the bolts and shut the door to a perfect fit. I just made sure that it was back on the shell EXACTLY were the old one was. I started out years ago making small templates of the edges to the shell, to the window frame, etc. Then match those templates to the new skin in those same areas. That worked pretty neat, but over the years I saw that everytime if I just paid particular attention to the skin as it went on the templates fit exactly the same everytime. I never needed to move it much at all, so why not just skip that step? So I just pay close attention to putting the skin right where it was. I don't clean off the overspray at the top of the panel to be sure that the new one goes exactly where the old one was, works everytime.
Brian
By the way, I got one of these "seaming pliers" at a garage sale years ago. I use it on any flat areas on the door skin like at the top or bottom, and even on the sides on some. These are exactly the ones I have but the same idea. I couldn't find a photo of the ones I have. These things are a MUST for the tops where you can't swing a hammer. And YES, they are VERY different than "duck bill" vice-grips. They are like a "vice" applying more even pressure instead of like a "hinge" action like a vice-grip.
Brian
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Brian
That photo shows a pair of flanging pliers that actually work more like the vice-grips and a "hinge". This pair is like the ones I have with a "leverage" mulitplying system. The photo sucks but it is the only one I could find. They are about three inches wide so you can fold a large area without marking it. Just like the hammer and dolly method you go a little at a time back and forth until you can press the hem together firmly.
They work GREAT.
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They work GREAT.
Eric, with as nice a job as you are doing it will blow your mind at how much better these hand seamers are over what you are using! They are like magic, remember the Spitsnagle spot weld driller.
I'll get the name or search a little more on google. I posted a photo of it a few months ago and found it easy. I don't know what I am doing wrong. But, I'll take a trip over to the hardware store and see the brand name (work is all locked up). They are for sheetmetal ducting work. Maybe in the catalog..........got the number, (Click here)
And click here for six inch wide ones.
Brian
I'll get the name or search a little more on google. I posted a photo of it a few months ago and found it easy. I don't know what I am doing wrong. But, I'll take a trip over to the hardware store and see the brand name (work is all locked up). They are for sheetmetal ducting work. Maybe in the catalog..........got the number, (Click here)
And click here for six inch wide ones.
Brian
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