[AutoGear]

I'm out of my depth here. My girlfriend has a 73 Charger 440 SE with the 727. She's owned it for 10+ years.
Its a legit 440 car. The original engine is long gone, and she was told that the current resident is "A 1975 440 from a motorhome."
She's very adept at maintaining it, took some CC classes about vintage car repairs, does her own brakes etc.

This car hates idling in traffic. It just gets so damn hot. Now I know the radiator was "replaced" (what that means, Im not sure. Its old looking and leaky and theres what looks like a hardware store gardenhose faucet for some sort of cooling drain scabbed into the system). And it has a straight drive mechanical fan and an ABS plastic fan shroud.
Car stays cool as long as its moving, she caravanned up to VT and it ran like a champ. Went to a car show in Lake George. Ran great until the 45min last mile of stop n start to get into the town. The ol girl was flat out mad at everyone and had a boilover.

Plan:

Remove suspect radiator, replace with appropriately sized 2-core aluminum radiator.
Flush block
Change fan to a 7 blade mechanical with Hayden clutch
Replace all hoses and the weird garden faucet/petcock framus
Inspect core support and surrounding sheetmetal for gaps and fill them in
Inspect waterpump to verify correct for application
Verify timing/ignition are correct - possible conversion candidate (her decision - not mine)

Carb is an ancient Edelbrock Performer. Intake is cast iron, Airfilter is typical 2-3" open paper with aftermarket chintzy base
Dstributor is mopar with conventional points, no idea if it was a holdover from the original 73 440, or its from the "75 motorhome 440"
Almost no hood clearance to speak of

Questions:
What am I missing?
What are some baseline timing specs given that this is a who-knows-what of an all iron, low compression 440?

Any hard-won knowledge on this specific application is appreciated.

Yes I've googled, but I trust you guys.

Sent via Tapatalk

 

[RODSRUS]

If it still has the fan shroud and the thermo whatever fan clutch the cheapest thing to do is replace the fan clutch with a solid spacer.
Unrelated I'd definitely replace the points with a Petronix conversion. FYI they don't like extended time with the key on and not running.

 

[AutoGear]

If it still has the fan shroud and the thermo whatever fan clutch the cheapest thing to do is replace the fan clutch with a solid spacer.
Unrelated I'd definitely replace the points with a Petronix conversion. FYI they don't like extended time with the key on and not running.

Thanks. It already has a solid mounted fan. I don't think cost will be a major determining factor; reliability, durability and peak performance in August are. It has soldiered on for over a decade and was reliable when her husband was still alive, which is what really mattered as he wasnt in a place physically to have the car down for a length of time. It was his bucket list car. And it served them well. But now? 10 years or so later, it needs to be done right. And we have a couple months before car season ramps up around here.
Im not well versed in the ways of Mopar. I want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious to some.
I appreciate the reminder about some of the electronic points conversion kits.

 

[johnsongrass1]

Fan to radiator distance is still important. Shroud or not. Just another idea to look at.
Speeding up the pump might help too.
Ensuring the belts are the right widths might help as well.

 

[AutoGear]

Fan to radiator distance is still important. Shroud or not. Just another idea to look at.
Speeding up the pump might help too.
Ensuring the belts are the right widths might help as well.

Great ideas.
Do you have a fan to radiator or "depth in the shroud" rule-of-thumb you prefer?

 

[RODSRUS]

Thanks. It already has a solid mounted fan. I don't think cost will be a major determining factor; reliability, durability and peak performance in August are. It has soldiered on for over a decade and was reliable when her husband was still alive, which is what really mattered as he wasnt in a place physically to have the car down for a length of time. It was his bucket list car. And it served them well. But now? 10 years or so later, it needs to be done right. And we have a couple months before car season ramps up around here.
Im not well versed in the ways of Mopar. I want to make sure I'm not missing something obvious to some.
I appreciate the reminder about some of the electronic points conversion kits.

Cost doesn't drive my solution only when I don't know the cause I start with the simplest (like a fuse) which is often the cheapest.
On to your problem the difference between at speed and idle cooling is at idle the heat (horsepower) input is minimal as is the airflow. So it is hard to see a fan belt or water pump being a problem.

 

[lmsport]

I think you're on the right track with the aluminum radiator and clutch fan, and I would be adamant that the clutch have a thermostatic feature. I would add a overflow system if if doesn't have one.

 

[Phillip Nickles]

I'm out of my depth here. My girlfriend has a 73 Charger 440 SE with the 727. She's owned it for 10+ years.
Its a legit 440 car. The original engine is long gone, and she was told that the current resident is "A 1975 440 from a motorhome."
She's very adept at maintaining it, took some CC classes about vintage car repairs, does her own brakes etc.

This car hates idling in traffic. It just gets so damn hot. Now I know the radiator was "replaced" (what that means, Im not sure. Its old looking and leaky and theres what looks like a hardware store gardenhose faucet for some sort of cooling drain scabbed into the system). And it has a straight drive mechanical fan and an ABS plastic fan shroud.
Car stays cool as long as its moving, she caravanned up to VT and it ran like a champ. Went to a car show in Lake George. Ran great until the 45min last mile of stop n start to get into the town. The ol girl was flat out mad at everyone and had a boilover.

Plan:

Remove suspect radiator, replace with appropriately sized 2-core aluminum radiator.
Flush block
Change fan to a 7 blade mechanical with Hayden clutch
Replace all hoses and the weird garden faucet/petcock framus
Inspect core support and surrounding sheetmetal for gaps and fill them in
Inspect waterpump to verify correct for application
Verify timing/ignition are correct - possible conversion candidate (her decision - not mine)

Carb is an ancient Edelbrock Performer. Intake is cast iron, Airfilter is typical 2-3" open paper with aftermarket chintzy base
Dstributor is mopar with conventional points, no idea if it was a holdover from the original 73 440, or its from the "75 motorhome 440"
Almost no hood clearance to speak of

Questions:
What am I missing?
What are some baseline timing specs given that this is a who-knows-what of an all iron, low compression 440?

Any hard-won knowledge on this specific application is appreciated.

Yes I've googled, but I trust you guys.

Sent via Tapatalk

As long as the engine is healthy it sounds as though the problem is a lack of air flow through the radiator at low speeds. If the engine has head gasket or cracked heads it would overheat at speed.
If the fan shroud is original with the car then someone like Yearone should offer a fan and fan clutch of the proper configuration. Spacing in regard as to the opening of the fan shroud to fan interface and fan diameter. All the higher performance cars used pretty heavy duty 5-7 blade fans and thermostatically controlled fan clutch. The front of said fan clutch has a heat sensitive spring which will change shape and reroute the fan clutch fluid to provide a more direct drive. My old 99 Dodge Dakota has a fan clutch and I can hear it roar if traffic dictates stop and go conditions.
My first new car, 1968 road runner, had a 4 blade straight drive fan and wasn’t fond of idling/low speeds. But that’s why they put wheels on it.
As points wear the timing will change but enough to make it overheat at idle, debatable. Yes electronic ignition is the way to go for many reasons, by the mid 70s most all new cars were electronic ignition.

 

[lemondana]

Have you verified that it has a point ignition? Chrysler was the first to come out with electronic ignition, the electronic distributors look identical to the single point units used before that. Chrysler came out with the electronic ignition in 1972, and the 1975 motorhome would also have electronic. Also-not related, put a Thermoquad back on it!

 

[AutoGear]

Have you verified that it has a point ignition? Chrysler was the first to come out with electronic ignition, the electronic distributors look identical to the single point units used before that. Chrysler came out with the electronic ignition in 1972, and the 1975 motorhome would also have electronic. Also-not related, put a Thermoquad back on it!

I have not popped the cap. Hmm I do like me a Thermoquad; but its her car, otherwise it would have an 833OD in it by now

 

[lemondana]

I understand.

 

[BogiesAnnex1]

Classic not enough air passing over the core.

A modern fan would probably help, more base ignition timing also can help the B block has long struggled with insufficient base timing. The shroud needs to be tight at the radiator surround so it doesn’t allow air leaks into the shroud other than through the radiator core, also, the fan should be 1/3 to 1/2 the the blade pitch distance inside the shroud.

Bogie

 

[AutoGear]

Classic not enough air passing over the core.

A modern fan would probably help, more base ignition timing also can help the B block has long struggled with insufficient base timing. The shroud needs to be tight at the radiator surround so it doesn’t allow air leaks into the shroud other than through the radiator core, also, the fan should be 1/3 to 1/2 the the blade pitch distance inside the shroud.

Bogie

Bogie,
Any idea how much more base timing?
Every 440 Ive ever looked at, the piston is deep in the hole. Now maybe my sample size just includes rebuilder pistons...but dang.

Does anyone know if mopar made a standard rotation waterpump ONLY, or is there a chance that if mystery 440 was in a Pusher config, the WP is turning the wrong way?

 

[RWENUTS]

I ran 14 initial with the 440 and 383’s I had.
Factory for 73 440 was 10 initial. That number went downhill in later years. My motors manual shows 4 degrees in 78.
cooling was always a problem mostly because of the large area between the grill and the rad. Room for 2 cases of beer in there. Air was easily deflected before it got to the fins.
‘You could look at some shrouding/deflectors in there. Like a ram air effect.

 

[RODSRUS]

I ran 14 initial with the 440 and 383’s I had.
Factory for 73 440 was 10 initial. That number went downhill in later years. My motors manual shows 4 degrees in 78.
cooling was always a problem mostly because of the large area between the grill and the rad. Room for 2 cases of beer in there. Air was easily deflected before it got to the fins.
‘You could look at some shrouding/deflectors in there. Like a ram air effect.

Air could easily get diverted at speed but it doesn't matter at very low speeds like this problem.
I wonder if a transmission cooler separate from the stock radiator would help/solve the problem.