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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
What did not solve your problem? Are talking the disconnected kill switch or jumping 12 volts to the coil not allow the engine to continue running after starting?

Bogie
Yes I was hoping for a simple fix I'm thinking demolition derby car ha ha. The switch not marked on or off so I just tried both ways then found the latest problem. The 2door wagons have been one of my favorite cars since I saw the first one in about 1966 or67
 

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When I get overwhelmed with too many wires to contend with, I try to pare it down, by labeling and disconnecting different elements I know I don't need just to get it to run. One shorted wire or component is all it takes to knock you out. If possible get it down to just the wires it must have to just run with nothing else. If I think a switch panel may is bad, I have sometimes done the same with them. I also plug in other parts to substitute for the one in the car. I've found a lot of dead units and bad wiring that way. With many engines I have found additional wiring in there, that somebody added at some point which wasn't needed and causing problems.
I also use a simple volt ohm meter a lot and it saves me a lot of steps. Best, GS
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
When I get overwhelmed with too many wires to contend with, I try to pare it down, by labeling and disconnecting different elements I know I don't need just to get it to run. One shorted wire or component is all it takes to knock you out. If possible get it down to just the wires it must have to just run with nothing else. If I think a switch panel may is bad, I have sometimes done the same with them. I also plug in other parts to substitute for the one in the car. I've found a lot of dead units and bad wiring that way. With many engines I have found additional wiring in there, that somebody added at some point which wasn't needed and causing problems.
I also use a simple volt ohm meter a lot and it saves me a lot of steps. Best, GS
Thanks for that perspective, In hindsight I wouldn't have got the 22 circuit wire harnis that togeher with adding headlight relays and fan relays A ford starter solinoid that I never delt eith before. The orig fuse panel had Six circuts total. I thought someone down the line might want to add power windows door locks etc. Bigger is not nessaraly better. Anyway it's been a while since I saw the back of the fuse panel so I don't know what could have come undone theres no fuse on that wire I just checked all the fuses theres sort of a pattern top row all 4 off 2nd row all on 3rd row 2 off 2on 4th row all off 5th row all 4 on
Its going to be tight but I think I'll be able flip it over to see the back. Maybe not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I wanted to get Kwickwires opinion but there closed till monday. woke up to 60 degree weather this morning in northern ca. yesterday it was 30
 

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I’d recommend you sketch it out and label the wires if color code is insufficient where space allows as you go. This is a fairly big task time wise it will probably require more than one immersion to get it figured out and documented.

I my aerospace career I did a long stretch as in systems design which included electrical design under my management for a major airframer. I learned to hate electrical wiring it is far more complicated than meets the eye so your frustrations are understood. The only way through the maze is to map it or every time you have a problem you get dragged through what you’re currently suffering.

What I learned is keeping it as simple as possible is best. When wiring connectors you want the female socket as the hot side. Properties of insulation decline with altitude. Keeping electricity inside wires in the space environment is extremely difficult, micro amps make arcs that look like the lightening of July thunder storm.

For automotive I’m not a big relay and solenoid fan. For the high amperage starter they are a convenient way to switch big power, but it wasn’t always done that way. Up into the early 1950’s the starter contactor was a step-on switch on the floor of the vehicle as was the high-beam light switch. So these functions were not always done with a relay or solenoid. The concept of using a relay on head lights really falls from the manufacturer’s under gauging the wire sizes to save money. The method of using a existing wiring to switch a larger diameter wire (trying to avoid using “gauge” right here as the smaller the gauge number the larger the wire diameter, it can get confusing) that you add between a power source and the end consumer of that power. It saves replacing a simple switch in the dash or steering column with a larger capacity switch and thusly rewiring to where-ever that switch is located and back to the end user of that power. So the relay just makes life simpler in this regard, nothing magic compared to having used a larger diameter (smaller gauge number) wire.

When it comes to aircraft the driver is saving weight and being constrained by space, so the reasoning is different. Here they are trading complexity for weight since the distances can be very long, especially on bomber and transport type aircraft and space is always a constraint as well. So it is a better weight solution to develop high reliability relays and solenoids (Mil Spec) to do more local switching of high power circuits close to the consuming object than it is to run large size cables from the power source to the cockpit to a panel switch then back to where-ever the power consuming object is located. Even with this if you ever saw the amount of wiring within the cockpit of one of these aircraft and I’ll include fighters in this as well the realization of the amount and complexity will fry your brain just looking at it let alone trying to sort it out. Add to this fun is very few of these wires are color coded, they have codes stamped at locations on each wire that are nearly impossible to read once they are installed an unbelievable pain to work on. A close comparison that can be made is looking at under hood auto wiring of a carbueted engine to what it looks like with factory EFI. The OEM’s answer to that basket of snakes is to hide it under decorative plastic panels.

The modern car or truck is jam packed with electrical relays and solenoids. These are controlled by what are essentially electronic relays inside the computer that you don’t even know are there. These being switching transistors that the logic circuits turn on and off as commands flow from the brainiac chip to the control circuits.

So this just isn’t as simple as the old biographical movie about Elvis’ early life as an electrician where the movie character makes a comment about (“White to white, black to black, red to red; how difficult can this be?”). Well Bunkie there’s a lot more going on under that surface view. Thus the need to map the circuits out for your project car.

Bogie
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
I’d recommend you sketch it out and label the wires if color code is insufficient where space allows as you go. This is a fairly big task time wise it will probably require more than one immersion to get it figured out and documented.

I my aerospace career I did a long stretch as in systems design which included electrical design under my management for a major airframer. I learned to hate electrical wiring it is far more complicated than meets the eye so your frustrations are understood. The only way through the maze is to map it or every time you have a problem you get dragged through what you’re currently suffering.

What I learned is keeping it as simple as possible is best. When wiring connectors you want the female socket as the hot side. Properties of insulation decline with altitude. Keeping electricity inside wires in the space environment is extremely difficult, micro amps make arcs that look like the lightening of July thunder storm.

For automotive I’m not a big relay and solenoid fan. For the high amperage starter they are a convenient way to switch big power, but it wasn’t always done that way. Up into the early 1950’s the starter contactor was a step-on switch on the floor of the vehicle as was the high-beam light switch. So these functions were not always done with a relay or solenoid. The concept of using a relay on head lights really falls from the manufacturer’s under gauging the wire sizes to save money. The method of using a existing wiring to switch a larger diameter wire (trying to avoid using “gauge” right here as the smaller the gauge number the larger the wire diameter, it can get confusing) that you add between a power source and the end consumer of that power. It saves replacing a simple switch in the dash or steering column with a larger capacity switch and thusly rewiring to where-ever that switch is located and back to the end user of that power. So the relay just makes life simpler in this regard, nothing magic compared to having used a larger diameter (smaller gauge number) wire.

When it comes to aircraft the driver is saving weight and being constrained by space, so the reasoning is different. Here they are trading complexity for weight since the distances can be very long, especially on bomber and transport type aircraft and space is always a constraint as well. So it is a better weight solution to develop high reliability relays and solenoids (Mil Spec) to do more local switching of high power circuits close to the consuming object than it is to run large size cables from the power source to the cockpit to a panel switch then back to where-ever the power consuming object is located. Even with this if you ever saw the amount of wiring within the cockpit of one of these aircraft and I’ll include fighters in this as well the realization of the amount and complexity will fry your brain just looking at it let alone trying to sort it out. Add to this fun is very few of these wires are color coded, they have codes stamped at locations on each wire that are nearly impossible to read once they are installed an unbelievable pain to work on. A close comparison that can be made is looking at under hood auto wiring of a carbueted engine to what it looks like with factory EFI. The OEM’s answer to that basket of snakes is to hide it under decorative plastic panels.

The modern car or truck is jam packed with electrical relays and solenoids. These are controlled by what are essentially electronic relays inside the computer that you don’t even know are there. These being switching transistors that the logic circuits turn on and off as commands flow from the brainiac chip to the control circuits.

So this just isn’t as simple as the old biographical movie about Elvis’ early life as an electrician where the movie character makes a comment about (“White to white, black to black, red to red; how difficult can this be?”). Well Bunkie there’s a lot more going on under that surface view. Thus the need to map the circuits out for your project car.

Bogie
Don't let me anywhere near airplane wiring. This wiring kit was several years old I think they may have upgraded . It is difficult to see black labeling on dark brown etc. I also didn't care for the tangled mess where the wires left the fuse block.I think I'll cut the extra circuts off 12 inches or so from the fuee box so i dont have a bunch coiled wire under the dash and to lessen the confusion. I have the wires pretty much identified + most of the wires are marked some of the marking has erasied from handling or is hard to find . I opened the fuse block verified that I have power from the solinoid and power from the ALT. The whole top row of fuses is dead which has the coil turn radio a/c heat fourth row is dead fan guages wipers . So now I just need to figure out why. There are some open terminals on the back I just need to decide what to jump and to where to it might not be so bad
 

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Yep, my previous career was about 11 years of working on vintage (55-66) Boeing and Lockheed electrical systems. Miles and miles and miles of wires... Stacks and stacks of very thick wiring diagram books. Just one or two pages on some of those diagrams could boggle your mind.
o_O
 

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Rod...from a Chrysler?
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Call me crazy, but I love tracking down wiring issues. Nothing like a nice mystery to solve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Picture front of the fuse block I don't know how its set up inside There is 5 separate modules, theirs a buss bar for lack of a better term that runs across that has the various wires crimped to. The Coil kill switch goes to the top left 30 amp fuse pink wire from the kill switch to the fuse other pink from the fuse
Handwriting Rectangle Font Pattern Parallel
is power to the coil but there is no power to the top row of fuses.
Handwriting Rectangle Font Pattern Parallel
Handwriting Rectangle Font Pattern Parallel
Handwriting Rectangle Font Pattern Parallel
Handwriting Rectangle Font Pattern Parallel
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
Picture front of the fuse block I don't know how its set up inside There is 5 separate modules, theirs a buss bar for lack of a better term that runs across that has the various wires crimped to. The Coil kill switch goes to the top left 30 amp fuse pink wire from the kill switch to the fuse other pink from the fuse View attachment 621390 is power to the coil but there is no power to the top row of fuses. View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390
If anyone can fix that mess great I swear Im not drinking.
Picture front of the fuse block I don't know how its set up inside There is 5 separate modules, theirs a buss bar for lack of a better term that runs across that has the various wires crimped to. The Coil kill switch goes to the top left 30 amp fuse pink wire from the kill switch to the fuse other pink from the fuse View attachment 621390 is power to the coil but there is no power to the top row of fuses. View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390
Picture front of the fuse block I don't know how its set up inside There is 5 separate modules, theirs a buss bar for lack of a better term that runs across that has the various wires crimped to. The Coil kill switch goes to the top left 30 amp fuse pink wire from the kill switch to the fuse other pink from the fuse View attachment 621390 is power to the coil but there is no power to the top row of fuses. View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390 View attachment 621390
I don't know how I'm making such a mess of this I was tring to make smaller pictures.
Circuit component Electrical wiring Electronic component Electronic engineering Computer hardware
Purple Electrical wiring Electrical supply Magenta Cable
Light Green Electrical wiring Electrical supply Terrestrial plant
 

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Discussion Starter · #53 ·
So it looks to me like I need to jumper a power wire to the top row and maybe some others I just need to do it so i don't double fuse something. Opinions anyone ? AS some of you know I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why the engine wouldn't stay running.
 

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Rod...from a Chrysler?
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In order to know how to trace issues, you need the wiring diagrams.
I found a PDF copy online.
First thing I was looking at is the dizzy wiring.
Check the attached. Is the dizzy on the diagram the same as you have?


Product Rectangle Font Material property Parallel







Lose the Ford solenoid. It's not needed.
If you want an easy way to bump the starter, splice in a piece of purple wire and bring it up on the firewall with a female butt connector crimped on to it. Then you can easily plug in a push button switch to do so without having that lump of shtuff on your inner fender.








Font Line Slope Parallel Circle
 

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Rod...from a Chrysler?
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Next, your photos show no power to a couple of bus bars in the fuse box.
Some of the bus bars need to be hot full time and some need to be controlled by the ignition key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Next, your photos show no power to a couple of bus bars in the fuse box.
Some of the bus bars need to be hot full time and some need to be controlled by the ignition key.
I've got to replace the heater core hopefully I can get it out from the inside without pulling the console out I've got a 16 year old kid that wants to be a mechanic going to help. get back to the fuse box issue soon.
 

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More for Less Racer
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Rectangle Font Material property Parallel Screenshot


The above image diagram is just for separate MSD ignition boxes like the 5A, 6A, 6AL, 7AL

It isn't correct for MSD's stand alone distributors like their HEI..
 
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