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tryn to learn
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OK so i got myself a brand new eagle 60gallon single stage air compressor, 240volt, 23 amp. only problem is i don't have 240 in the garage yet.

The garage is attached to the house. i want to put a power box out there to run 1 120v plug, 1 240v for air compressor, and 1 for a 240v for a heater in the future.

my question is would the wiring come from the basement power panel or would it come from the power meter that is outside attached to the side of the house?

and yes i got a electrician coming to do it for me, but here there is such a work shortage i have to wait for awhile. im just trying to get as much stuff done ready for him. i found a way to get from the basement to the garage for power if needed, and the power meter(if it comes from there) on the side of the house is about 5 feet away from the garage so it shouldn't have to go underground right?
 

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That all depends on the capacity of your service drop from the utility company, and the size of your distribution panel. If the supply line and distribution panel are big enough the way to go would be an additional distribution panel in the garage fed from the main panel. The electrician should be able to guide you in the proper direction. Get back to us after you talk to him and let us know what he is proposing.

Vince
 

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I'm an electrician, you could do it either way. With electric serivice to your house, you can do 1 of 2 things when originally installed. You can have either 1 main disconnect or up to 6 individual disconnects without a main disconnect. A good example is a multi dwelling house. When you do not have a main disconnect, you MUST have the individual disconnects located in 1 location. This means in your case, going from the meter outside, you'd have to install 2 disconnecting means. 1 for the garage and 1 for the house to meet the NEC. In addition, you'd have to re do the grounding in the main panel in the house as the grounding requirement are different for a main panel vs a sub. Basically, you're making a mountain out of a mole hill. I'd suggest installing something like a 60 amp double pole breaker, running a line to a sub panel in the garage branching out to what ever you need. Don't worry about a 60 amp or what ever breaker since the size of the service to your house is calculated by sq ft and major appliances and not the total amperage of the circuit breakers added up. Doing this way will be a lot easier and cheaper.
 

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Thats basically the same thing I did when I ran power out to my other garage at over 150' away. 60 amp breaker @ my main ran thru #3 to another panel box. Then I seperated the circuits at the secondary box with one side of the garage on 15 amp breakers for lights and outlets, the compressor on a seperate breaker, and the other side of the garage on a couple of breakers for the lights and numerous outlets. Never once have I popped a breaker.

Kevin
 

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I installed a 60amp 2 pole breaker and run 4 #6 wires in a 3/4" conduit from my main house panel to my attached garage sub panel, I was able to run my conduit from my main house panel outside and LB down under ground and run a 3/4 PVC conduit under ground to the garage & up the outside wall of my garage and LB into my garage sub panel mounted inside the garage, I used emt conduit above ground and pvc conduit under ground. and I run lights and receptacles off 20a single pole breakers and a 20a 2 pole breaker for a 240v electric heater and a 30a 2 pole breaker that feeds my air compressor, my welder is a 120v gas wire feed. your main panel should be bonded, so in your main panel your neutral bar is attached directly to your metal panel box and the neutrals and grounds are on the same bar. but a sub panel should not be bonded ! (thats why you run 4 wires to a single phase sub panel) so in your garage sub panel your neutral bar is isolated from your metal panel box and your ground bar is attached to your metal panel box, so your neutrals are on one bar and the grounds are on a separate bar.




Mustangsaly
 

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Mustangsaly said:
I installed a 60amp 2 pole breaker and run 4 #6 wires in a 3/4" conduit from my main house panel to my attached garage sub panel, I was able to run my conduit from my main house panel outside and LB down under ground and run a 3/4 PVC conduit under ground to the garage & up the outside wall of my garage and LB into my garage sub panel mounted inside the garage, I used emt conduit above ground and pvc conduit under ground. and I run lights and receptacles off 20a single pole breakers and a 20a 2 pole breaker for a 240v electric heater and a 30a 2 pole breaker that feeds my air compressor, my welder is a 120v gas wire feed. your main panel should be bonded, so in your main panel your neutral bar is attached directly to your metal panel box and the neutrals and grounds are on the same bar. but a sub panel should not be bonded ! (thats why you run 4 wires to a single phase sub panel) so in your garage sub panel your neutral bar is isolated from your metal panel box and your ground bar is attached to your metal panel box, so your neutrals are on one bar and the grounds are on a separate bar.




Mustangsaly
It was a long time ago when I wired my garage and I did it similar to what you did but I'm almost sure that I ran three wires out and had my neutrals and grounds together. I'll have to check it tomorrow. I drove a ground bar into the ground and hooked it up to my garage panel. Is this dangerous? Also do you recommend GFR's in a garage? They might be manditory code but I don't know.
 

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Kampr said:
It was a long time ago when I wired my garage and I did it similar to what you did but I'm almost sure that I ran three wires out and had my neutrals and grounds together. I'll have to check it tomorrow. I drove a ground bar into the ground and hooked it up to my garage panel. Is this dangerous? Also do you recommend GFR's in a garage? They might be manditory code but I don't know.

well a sub panel should be feed with 4 wires. 2 phases/hots a neutral & a ground, and have the neutral isolated or the neutral bar isolated in the sub panel, cause with 3 wires feeding the sup panel and you lose your neutral between your panels your sub panel box could become energized or say the neutral becomes lose, a ground rod would help but a ground rod can not be the sole means of a ground, a neutral carries the unused voltage back to the service entrance/ground. so a neutral can and does carry voltage. so 3 wires to a sub panel could potentially become a serious problem. (your sub panel i'm sure is bonded, most are bonded with a screw through the neutral bar into a threaded hole bonding the neutral bar to the metal panel box, if it's not bonded your sub panel is not grounded)

by GFRs I'm guessing your meaning GFIs or GFICs ? my garage is mostly all GFIs but my wire feed welder a a few motor items like chop saws trips the GFIs, so I have a couple up above the bench that are not GFIs. but everything down low or close to the doors where a cord can be plugged in & pulled out side is GFIs. GFIs in a garage are code.

a lot of people don't understand bounding/grounding. hope this helps.


Mustangsaly
 

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Mustangsaly said:
well a sub panel should be feed with 4 wires. 2 phases/hots a neutral & a ground, and have the neutral isolated or the neutral bar isolated in the sub panel, cause with 3 wires feeding the sup panel and you lose your neutral between your panels your sub panel box could become energized or say the neutral becomes lose, a ground rod would help but a ground rod can not be the sole means of a ground, a neutral carries the unused voltage back to the service entrance/ground. so a neutral can and does carry voltage. so 3 wires to a sub panel could potentially become a serious problem. (your sub panel i'm sure is bonded, most are bonded with a screw through the neutral bar into a threaded hole bonding the neutral bar to the metal panel box, if it's not bonded your sub panel is not grounded)

by GFRs I'm guessing your meaning GFIs or GFICs ? my garage is mostly all GFIs but my wire feed welder a a few motor items like chop saws trips the GFIs, so I have a couple up above the bench that are not GFIs. but everything down low or close to the doors where a cord can be plugged in & pulled out side is GFIs. GFIs in a garage are code.

a lot of people don't understand bounding/grounding. hope this helps.


Mustangsaly
Thanks for the reply. GFI was what I meant. I checked my panel out and I only have 3 wires coming from my house and both of my ground/neutral bars are bonded to the box. I'll try shoving another wire through the conduit to the house. If it won't go a lot of digging will have to be done.

Thanks,
Kampr
 

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Is your conduit feeding your sub panel a complete metal conduit system ? if so use your metal conduit as a ground, isolate your neutral bar in the sub panel and add a ground bar in the sub panel and bond the ground bar to the sub panel, and put a grounding bushing in each conduit connector inside each panel with a bare or green wire from the grounding bushing to ground bar in sub panel. and in the main panel run a ground wire from the grounding bushing to the neutral/ground bar.

if your sub panel is feed with pvc/plastic conduit add a wire. your ground wire Can be a size smaller then the panel feeds and neutral wire.





Mustangsaly
 

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novajohnb said:
Kampr,


From memory, an attached garage (I believe a garage is technically considered "attached" if it is connected to the main house via any metal conduit or even telephone/ TV cable) has to have four wires {hot, hot, nuetral, ground} going to subpanel with *non-bonded* nuetral and ground.

A non-attached garage can have three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} The ground wire is attached from the sub panel to an approved earth grounding rod system at the garage. Again, *non-bonded* neutral and ground.

As far as I know, sub-panel neutral and ground *never* bonded. Neutral and ground only connected once in the system at main service panel (house.)


Check the above info with the NEC and local code officials, as they may go above and beyond NEC.
Kampar,

1st off this statement is true. a sub-panel neutral and ground *should never* be bonded. the Neutral and ground should only be connected once in the system at the main service panel (house.) is correct !

novajohnb offense here and I'm not trying to start a argument with you but incorrect information can pose harm injury or death in this case.

novajohnb said:
Kampr,

A non-attached garage can have three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} The ground wire is attached from the sub panel to an approved earth grounding rod system at the garage. Again, *non-bonded* neutral and ground.
novajohnb By NO MEANS can a ground rod/earth ground be the sole means of a ground in any electrical system ! and by having a earth ground/ground rod and having your neutrals & grounds separate and Not bonding a panel the ground rod/earth ground would be the sole means of a ground in this type of a system as you described it.

A non-attached garage can have three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} feeding it if that was the main service to a non-attached garage and if it has the panel bonded and a ground rod is included I know is 100% correct, IF it's not fed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel.

but when a non-attached garage is feed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel then I think it becomes considered a sub-panel and should be treated and wired as one.

check your NJ codes and laws cause i'm not sure if NJ wants 4 wires and a non bonded panel with no ground rod in a a non-attached garage feed from a breaker in side a residential home main service panel or not.

now here if the city service comes into the meter on the outside of the house and from meter to a terminal box or a weather proof panel on the out side of a house, you could feed a non-attached garage with three wires in the conduit {hot, hot, neutral} or it could be fed over head to the non-attached garage and the panel would be bonded and a ground rod is included I know is 100% correct, IF it's not feed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel but IF it's feed from a breaker in side the main residential house service panel it's a different story.

(as it's done here like this on the farms, buts it's all outside. the service comes into the meter on a pole then to a pole mounted weather proof disconnect or a weather proof terminal box and each building or grain bin including the house is feed with 3 wires and is like a main service to each building, grain bin & house, each building, grain bin & house has a ground rod and each panel is bonded )

I'm not sure if NJ will let you feed a non-attached garage out of a residential house panel with a breaker from in side your main panel and run 3 wires to the a non-attached garage and bond the panel and have a ground rod in the a non-attached garage or not.

personally as I see it, an attached garage or a non-attached garage feed from a breaker in side a main residential service panel would need to be considered a sub - panel and I would wire it as a sub-panel.


Really the #1 Question here is your garage attached ?


if you check into this through NJ codes or from a NJ Licensed Electrical Contractor let us know what you find out. as I'm curious.

I'm 100% sure about a ground rod/earth ground not being the sole means of a ground in any electrical system according to the NEC.

NEC = National Electrical Code

the NEC is the minimum requirements required, you can always do more than the NEC requires, but not less than required by the NEC.

hope I'm helping and not making it more confusing.

Mustangsaly
 

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Mustangsally,
No offense taken. It's been a few years and my memory is a little fuzzy regarding all the details. I tried to preface the comments by advising to consult NEC/ code official/ licensed electrician.

So as not to confuse anyone, I removed the post .

To the original poster(s):
Incorrect electrical work has the potential to cause fire, personal injury, or even death.
Electrical work needs to be done according to code. Period.

Check with your local code officials and get a permit.
 

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novajohnb said:
Mustangsally,
No offense taken. It's been a few years and my memory is a little fuzzy regarding all the details. I tried to preface the comments by advising to consult NEC/ code official/ licensed electrician.

So as not to confuse anyone, I removed the post .

To the original poster(s):
Incorrect electrical work has the potential to cause fire, personal injury, or even death.
Electrical work needs to be done according to code. Period.

Check with your local code officials and get a permit.

I agree with you, plus it's a bit harder to type it and explain it, than to say it and explain it, well for me anyway.




Mustangsaly
 

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Codes are different eveywhere, common sense is universal.
1 point stated above that is a nono is using the conduit between panels as a ground, most states actually prohibit this and the pipe must be isolate by meens of plastic bushings.

I am not an electrician but I did install a lot of high end computer equipment and learned the value of proper single point grounding. I would not recomend driving any additional ground rods if you are not required to. This can be very hazzardous to any equipment that is connected to both the house pannel and the garage panel. Lets say you have a TV in the garage and it is on cable, well it is the same cable ground electrically as the other TV's in the house. If something happens on 1 electrical system ground that doesnt happen on the other you could end up with a potential on the cable that could start a fire at worst and at best burn up some equipment.
The probem with using the condiut for a ground is the connectors will eventually corrode and cause resistance and with that comes heat. This is why BX wiring used to burn buildings down.

Bottom line is if you dont know exactly what you are doing, hire an electrician. Most will allow you do do some of the grunt work as long as they make up all the connections.

Good luck with it.
 

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T-bucket23 said:
Codes are different eveywhere, common sense is universal.
1 point stated above that is a nono is using the conduit between panels as a ground, most states actually prohibit this and the pipe must be isolate by meens of plastic bushings.

I am not an electrician but I did install a lot of high end computer equipment and learned the value of proper single point grounding. I would not recomend driving any additional ground rods if you are not required to. This can be very hazzardous to any equipment that is connected to both the house pannel and the garage panel. Lets say you have a TV in the garage and it is on cable, well it is the same cable ground electrically as the other TV's in the house. If something happens on 1 electrical system ground that doesnt happen on the other you could end up with a potential on the cable that could start a fire at worst and at best burn up some equipment.
The probem with using the condiut for a ground is the connectors will eventually corrode and cause resistance and with that comes heat. This is why BX wiring used to burn buildings down.

Bottom line is if you dont know exactly what you are doing, hire an electrician. Most will allow you do do some of the grunt work as long as they make up all the connections.

Good luck with it.
T-bucket23 said:
Codes are different eveywhere, common sense is universal.
1 point stated above that is a nono is using the conduit between panels as a ground, most states actually prohibit this and the pipe must be isolate by meens of plastic bushings.



I am not an electrician but .


the TRUEST PART OF WHAT YOU TYPED IS "I am not an electrician but "


you are giving a lot of WRONG INFORMATION ! I Hope No One Listens to You.

It's 100% legal to use conduit as a ground. you can use metal conduit as a ground instead of pulling a ground wire in the conduit, in the case where the metal conduit is used as a ground instead of pulling a ground wire in the conduit is one case to use a grounding bushing. all metal conduit systems are most certainly Grounded ! and are required by the NEC to be grounded. electricity always takes the shortest path to ground.

for the record I'm a licensed electrician.

all metal in a electrical system from metal boxs to metal conduit and metal light fixtures ect. is to be grounded and required to be grounded.

in fact when a electrical service is installed in all industrial commercial and residential applications it's required to ground the water service and building steel. and bond the metal panel box witch grounds the conduit system ect.

and by the way a plastic bushing does not insulate the conduit system.

the grounding grid/system is like a safety system to protect lives and equipment ect.

think about this, if a conduit system is not grounded and becomes energized and you or your child or your dog touches it theres a potential it could electrocute them. what will save there life ? a ground, if its grounded it will trip the breaker and kill or eliminate the energized conduit.

all ground systems in your house or garage should be tied together. grounded equipment will not start a fire. in fact it will be the reason the fire stopped because the electricity was shut down by tripping the breaker or power source by taking the electricity to ground. there should not be more than 1 electrical system ground per service ! you clearly don't understand electricity or grounding. ever notice guys working on electronic equipment or electrical systems wear grounded wrist bands so there is no static electricity ?
 

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I never said the conduit should not be grounded. It also should never be used as the sole grounding system for the exact reason you gave. If a connecton loostens up or corrodes you lose your saftey ground and someone can get hurt. The codes are different from state to state and even town to town. I actually know a lot about electricity and grounding. I am not "licensed" but have over seen extensive work in high end computer rooms. Your statement about static electricity has absolutly no bearing on this post. A static strap is designed to SLOWLY drain away static electricty as to not hurt the equipment. Any static in the techs body will be drained and his or her ground potential will become the same as the equipments. This is accomplished by introducing high resistance into the strap at some point between the tech and the equipments grounding systems. The multiple point grounding issue is the main reason most multi building business and colleges run fibre between buildings not speed as most people think. You actually can get the same speeds with copper in most cases. I have dealt with a lot of elecricians and alot still dont understand the issues of multi point grounding.
 

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T-bucket23 said:
I never said the conduit should not be grounded. It also should never be used as the sole grounding system for the exact reason you gave. If a connecton loostens up or corrodes you lose your saftey ground and someone can get hurt. The codes are different from state to state and even town to town. I actually know a lot about electricity and grounding.

according to the NEC (witch every state & towns codes are based on) you can use conduit as the sole grounding means in a electrical system. it is 100% legal to use conduit as the sole ground in a feed to a sub-panel according to the NEC.

you said

T-bucket23 said:
The probem with using the condiut for a ground is the connectors will eventually corrode and cause resistance and with that comes heat. This is why BX wiring used to burn buildings down.QUOTE]

for the record I always pull a ground in a conduit feed or system, but I've used the conduit as the sole ground to sub-panel feed when the drawing show it that way on the blue prints of a job a electrical engineer designed that way.


Question
how will lose conduit connector cause resistance and create heat ?

the only answer that comes to mind is, if theres a fault that takes power / electricity to ground.


a lose conduit connector in a conduit system used for a ground conductor would leave part of the system ungrounded, or potentiality leave a system ungrounded but most likely there will still be a ground ( but not grounded as it was designed) as a system is grounded and bonded to the water main and building steel and the panel & boxes on each end are grounded.

a ground only carries voltage when theres a fault, and then carries the current to ground to trip or blow a breaker or fuse or cut out.

I mentioned static electricity because you said you installed a lot of high end computer equipment. and thats where some different grounding codes can apply like not using conduit systems as a sole means of a ground.

but using a conduit system as a sole ground to a sub-panel feed in a commercial or residential application is 100% legal. check with your town city & state codes on if using conduit systems as a sole means of a ground to feed a sub-panel in a residential application in your town then get back to me.




Mustangsaly
 

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Doc here, :pimp:

NEC said:
See installation restrictions in NEC section 250-64. GROUNDING

**---->1. The grounding conduit shall contain a grounding conductor either bare or with green insulation extended from the service switch neutral lug to the ground clamp and shall have an ampere rating not less than one third (1/3) of that of the largest service conductor. <----****

2. Bare wire is acceptable as a grounding conductor provided it is No. 4 copper wire or larger, solid or stranded and need not be in conduit. Bare grounding conductor, not in conduit, must be securely fastened to the building or structure with approved fastening devices. The spacing of such devices shall not exceed six (6) feet.

3. No grounding electrode conductor or piping system bonding conductor shall enter or exit the utility pull section on any service entrance equipment. The equipment bonding conductor shall be the only grounding conductor to enter, exit or terminate in the utility pull section.

4. Direct taps to the ground electrode conductor shall be provided for other utilities requiring bonding to the common ground electrode. A bonding clamp to the electrical service riser is not acceptable.

BONDING1. Bonding - sized in accordance with NEC section 250-66. Service bonding conductors must be of the same size as the service grounding conductor, but in no case shall the ampere rating of the bonding conductor be less than one third (1/3) of that of the largest service conductor.

2. Insulated bonding conductors shall be protected by only green insulation.

3. Bonding is required on all enclosures, equipment, raceways and fittings that contain unfused service conductors. Nipples and bushings installed with eccentric or concentric lock nuts must be bonded with ground bushings, wedges, or other approved devices. All metal conduit containing unfused conductor shall be threaded rigid or intermediate type.

4. An insulated bondable vertical lay-in lug (large enough to accommodate required wire size) shall be mounted on either sidewall.

8-02.DOC GROUNDING AND BONDING GROUNDING AND BONDING REQUIREMENTS 1 - 1,000 AMP SES DATE: 04-15-86 REV. NO.: 3 REV. DATE: 04-01-03 APPROVAL: MLD Electric Service Specifications


Doc :pimp:
 
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