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Jon said:
BTW, regarding legal lines, publicly re-printing emails is a "grey zone". Same with other assumed "private" communications, such as PMs in forums. While there's nothing I'm ashamed to see in the email I sent you, it is something to keep in mind. Spamming forums, as Richard's marketing company has done, is also "technically" illegal.
While I am not a lawyer, everything I have read, including far too many court documents online, says that this is not a "grey zone" at all. You own each email you compose. Copyright law therefore gives you the exclusive right to publish or choose a publisher. In the U.S., public interest may override copyright law, such as when Diebold's corporate email was published when revealing voting machine problems. It is far better to assume that no permission to publish is received with an email. Seventy years after the author dies, you're free to publish without permission, unless it was anonymous, pseudonymous or a work for hire, then it's 95 years after publication or 120 years after creation, whichever is shorter.
 

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The nice guy quote was about my brother, David Coker. As I told you, I do not know this Richard guy nor ever talked to him or met him.

Seems to me that kicking the guy off your forum would be the smart thing to do if he broke your rules. Life is too short. Seems like a big waste of time to me.

I prefer to talk about cars.

Corky

Jon said:
Corky,

Thanks for taking the time to post publicly in our forum. You are the first company representative involved in this situation to stand up and communicate publicly with us, and that takes guts.

And thank you for responding to one of my multiple emails to Coker Tire.

Regarding the relationship between Coker Tire and Gas Monkey Garage -- in his video, Richard says:



Hence, we parodied this as:



This seems perfectly legal to me, but I'd be happy to discuss it further if you don't think so. If this is generally perceived as unfair, I will edit that section of the video to say: "Is that David Coker? Involved with the Coker family of Coker tire?" However, my preference would be to leave the phrase "Coker Family" out of this, as I think that involving the term "family" may be out of line.

Note how Richard mentions the word "Coker" 3 times in 2 sentences. Once to connect David Coker with the Coker family, and then again to connect the Coker family with Coker tire. This is a semantic method of connecting David Coker to Coker tire.

BTW, regarding legal lines, publicly re-printing emails is a "grey zone". Same with other assumed "private" communications, such as PMs in forums. While there's nothing I'm ashamed to see in the email I sent you, it is something to keep in mind. Spamming forums, as Richard's marketing company has done, is also "technically" illegal.

Also, as we are on the subject of legal issues, it should be made known that using an interstate communications medium, such as the internet, to profit by means of "false pretenses, representations, or promises" constitutes wire fraud, a federal offense.

This is in no way whatsoever an accusation pointed at Coker Tire or Newstalgia Wheel, fine companies, as we have heard. However, we have already had company owners come on this board in the past for these purposes, so I want to make this known before other companies post in this thread. I am still looking into dodgy's spamming of our forums, and his marketing tactics, to see their exact legal classification.

I feel that it was wrong for Coker Tire to allow their good name to be associated with this tripe. I think that you guys are guilty by association, and we have the crappy job of having to call you out on it. If we don't, who will? The mags? The TV shows?

I imagine that you must be embarassed to have to hear the phrase "Coker Family" in a Richard Rawlings video.

Businesses fuel this marketing hype. I feel that calling them out on it will reduce the frequency of such events happening in the future. Every time I mention the "Coker" name in regard to this event, I have tried to specifically point out that they indeed have a great reputation among hotrodders, and that they, like us, have been duped by Gas Monkey Garage, and by the pseudo-badboy prefabricated culture that's being tossed down our throats by television-based hotrodding propaganda.

I also don't feel that "he's a good guy" or "he's a fine man" is a reasonable excuse. I am now receiving communications about how Richard Rawlings is a really good guy, and it was wrong to call him out for this.

Everyone is a "good guy". Perhaps even I am a good guy.

I'm sorry it has to be this way. I don't feel great about it. We are incredibly pissed-off about what's going on here, and we're fighting it the only way we know how. With the recent introduction of mainstream media video clips into internet culture, I fear that the internet will become like television, and that it's our duty to act to prevent it.

This is an American tradition, in line with Saturday Night Live, or numerous talk shows in which special sections are devoted to common political parodies.

Perhaps if companies established direct relationships with hotrodders, rather than communicating to them through the mainstream media, we would not be in this situation in the first place. Our door is always open, but , as of now, there is only a small and select group of companies that have taken the steps to establish a relationship of good faith with the Hotrodders Bulletin Board.

More information can be found in this new page which I've just finished: Monkey Boys Garage.

And still, we await a public and genuine apology from Richard Rawlings and Gas Monkey Garage.
 

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Corky Coker said:
Seems to me that kicking the guy off your forum would be the smart thing to do if he broke your rules. Life is too short. Seems like a big waste of time to me.
I'm sorry, but that indicates you are not familiar with all of the facts of the incident. It is not simply a case of an individual violating the rules of Hotrodders.com. The moderators are quite tolerant, but capable of dealing with rules violations without fanfare and with minimal disruption of discussions.

Gas Monkey Garage attempted to exploit the large readership of Hotrodders.com by way of a deceptive message for marketing purposes. The deceptive message easily could have been placed in "The Dump" and the user who posted could have been banned. However, that which was being marketed was particularly offensive to Jon and, apparently, quite a lot of us. It portrays hotrodding as some kind of fake counter-culture, much like the image television and main-stream media imposed, or tried to impose, on motorcycling and rock music in the '50s.

People who seek to market such an image and those who seek to purchase such an image for themselves are certainly free to do so. They are not free to use Hotrodders.com for that marketing, as spelled out in the guidelines.

Those who get grease under their fingernails trying to build their dream hotrod are just as free to ridicule that counter-culture fakery. Some of us think hotrodding is more about machinery and engineering than about "Spank My Monkey" thongs, dark glasses in a garage, and selling by any means that moves the product.

A lot of hot rod projects discussed in these forums began as father and son projects. Which version of hotrodders would you prefer to sell to the next generation, one of engineering or one of assumed and marketed imagery?
 

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With all due respect...

I am having a hard time understanding why you guys are taking this so far and why you are treating Mr. Coker like you are.

Jon, the guy screwed up and did as you asked at the start and you are now on a witch hunt.

Mr. Coker responded and all you seem to do is keep go after people.

Now you have people showing up to post pictures attacking you and your members.

You have spawned that response...and I don't condone either action.

You did not start this, but you have made it worse and my opnion of you and this board is not what it used to be.

You should have closed this, banned GasMonkey, and moved on sir.

A page dedicated to this, attacks on Coker tire when they are not involved, and minions bandwagon jumping really looks pretty ugly sir.

I hope you can see my point in bringing this up.

I have lurked for quite some time and this really sucks.

Most boards would have stopped this crap long ago.

And yes, I have met Richard. In fact , was probably the first person to call him on the carpet on another board for his antics.

You can take this or leave it. It is just what I feel I am seeing.
 

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merc -- thanks for posting respectfully. I appreciate your opinion. If more than a small minority of people felt as you do, perhaps we would alter our position.

Pursuing these companies, although it's not pleasant, is the only way to stop this. I wonder if Coker, or other companies, will be funding Richard's shows from now on.

I'll repeat myself:

Gas Monkey Garage used us. They ignored our guidelines, spammed our forums, and insulted our intelligence with pathetic propaganda and duplicitous "let's donate to charity" marketing tactics. We asked for a genuine apology many times, and we never got one. We asked them to please remove the video from the web, and they ignored us. When we spoke our minds, they used harmless legal scare tactics to try to intimidate us into ignoring our rights to free speech. It's disgusting, and we're not going to roll over and let it happen.

For more information, see our new page at: http://www.hotrodders.com/monkeyboys.html
 

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All I can say is WOW!!!!! Keep up the good work and if you ever decide that I'm on your list, let me know so I can apologize and make it good.
 

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crazy larry said:
kind of a side note, it tickles me to see who the fans of gmg are.... they aren't posers or anything.... true hardcore duuuudes.... most likely even have their own thongs.....

:rolleyes:
i must say, i like the fact that their cars look like junk. im not a fan of shiny paint and chrome. to be clear i do agree with you guys about this thread, but i still do like the cars. and btw i do own a thong with an elepahnt theme going on :mwink: lol the ladies find it amusing.
 

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Here's an analysis of Corky's post.

In his post, he opens with some character attacks. He says that Jon is proud, Jon is assumptive, etc. This is a good opener, especially for the guys around here that don't know me.

Then, he disassociates himself from Gas Monkey Garage (a really important paragraph, we'll cover it below). Finally, he finishes with some character-building text, including my email to him. Why does he reprint this email? Surely he knows it's illegal? He does it because it contains my obvious compliments about his company. He thinks that if he shows everyone: "How can I be wrong, when even Jon said how great we are", then he will emerge victorious.

In his last paragraph, he assumes that he has won, and is even so proud as to say "Your plan to resolve", as if there is no other option for us. That's funny.

After he gets schooled, he backs down. He throws out some various generic excuses: life is too short, waste of time, prefer to talk about cars.

Corky didn't do too bad. But, he didn't do too good, either.


----


Note how, in the video, Richard Rawlings says:

"We just finished building a car for David Coker. He's involved with the Coker family of Coker Tire, and he owns Newstalgia Wheel Company."

Coker, Coker, Coker. Three times. Then, "Newstalgia". This is done to associate Coker Tire with Newstalgia Wheel in this heavily scripted video.

It's very similar to how, later in the video, David Coker will say the phrase: "Gas Monkey Newstalgia". This is done to semantically associate "Gas Monkey Garage", with David's business, "Newstalgia Wheel".

Now, Corky knows that Richard just got totally blown up on hotrodding forums, in SEMA, and plenty of other places, and rightfully so. Richard stepped way too far over the line. Back before everyone thought we wouldn't be able to see through dodgy's pathetic marketing attempt, they wanted to associate their family name, their business name, and their brother's business name with Gas Monkey Garage.

Now, after we've exposed the truth, Corky knows that he needs to disassociate his company name from Gas Monkey Garage and Richard Rawlings. Here's the reasons that he gives to disassociate:

1. Coker Tire Company does not have a relationship with Gas Monkey Garage.
2. He doesn't know Richard, he's never talked to him, he's never met him, and he hasn't seen the video.
3. His brother, David Coker, is not an employee of Coker tire.

All of these may indeed be true. However, there is only one question we need answered: Did Coker Tire or Corky Coker have foreknowledge of the fact that their company name was going to be mentioned in this video? Or, was it a complete and total surprise to hear their name mentioned? Was it planned? I suppose we can ask Corky:

"Hey Corky, did you guys know that Coker Tire was going to be mentioned in the video, or was it a total surprise?"

----

Coker Tire does a large amount of tire sales for this industry. If you do a lot of tire sales, having your brother start a company for selling wheels is practical. Those who buy tires often need wheels. Coker Tire can refer business to Newstalgia Wheel quite easily. Besides, they've worked hard to build a reputation over the years, and this is a practical solution for everyone. Newstalgia Wheel doesn't have to manufacture the wheels. They can just buy them from manufacturers. They can buy in large volume, and offer the same wheels for a lower price than many other companies. Also, they have fairly good taste, so they can pick and choose the wheels that they think are cool, from a bunch of different companies, and sell those wheels under their brand: "Newstalgia Wheel". This is good, and everyone wins. Good customer service, lower prices, etc. That's what capitalism and a free market are all about. If their marketing methods were as solid as their products, we wouldn't have a problem.

----

Corky says: "It looks like my brother just had these guys build a car for him".

Technically, Corky is correct. It looks like that. Not to me, but perhaps to many people. Some people may even think that David just happened to be stopping by to pick up his car from Gas Monkey Garage that day, and they just happened to have a video camera around to film it.

I don't believe it any more than I believe that dodgy stopped by here to help us donate to charity. Please. You guys are treating us like mentally retarded children. If you forked over a drop of respect, maybe we wouldn't have to hold your feet to the fire.


I think that Gas Monkey Garage was selected as the proper venue to advertise Newstalgia Wheels. If you think about it, the brands are a fairly good match. Newstalgia is a newer company on the scene, looking for some exposure. Richard is a rising star. His garage reputation for "old school made new" aligns properly with the "Newstalgia" concept.

There's something else I would like to know. We know about Richard now, and we know the truth about Stephen Andrews and his production company. I would like to know who financed this fiasco. I would like to know who is footing the bill.

Since I wasn't born yesterday, I know that "My brother just had these guys build a car for him" is a partial-truth at best.

I think that money, goods, or services changed hands somewhere along the line. Stephen Andrews (dodgy) didn't make this video for free, out of the goodness of his heart. David Coker didn't just happen to have these guys build a car for him.

I'm not stupid. I know that businesses are behind this.

A photo of guys in "Spank My Monkey" thongs, and a video of some jerk declaring himself to be the "Anti-Christ of the Hot Rod World" were posted on our forums. I want to know who footed the bill.

I would like the company or companies that financed, or helped finance, the posting of the Spank My Monkey photo on our forum to step forward, claim responsibility, and apologize. I would also like the company or companies that financed, or helped finance, the posting of the "Anti-Christ of the Hot Rod World" video on our forums to step forward, claim responsibility, and apologize. By "financed", I mean supported with the exchange of money, goods, or services.

Otherwise, I am simply going to research it myself, and add whatever information I discover to our new Monkey Boys Page.
 

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Better and better every time...

Keep it up Jon, this thread just gets funnier with every post. :thumbup:

I see still no apology, just passing of the blame... :rolleyes:

So is Corky really Corky, or maybe one of the children posting under a different name? You know we have had that stuff happen before... :rolleyes:

It's getting to the point that this thread will be something that marketing people may well end up looking at as an example of how NOT to go after a target audience. If they had only played by the rules... :pain:

Pretty bad when they think that everyone on this site is just a bunch of mindless shee-ple who will blindly submit to whatever is placed in front of their noses...

FWIW- things for me have gotten busy to the point that my website is no longer linking up to the pic hosting site I was using, and I have no time to get it corrected anytime soon. Also my other 'puter with the photo programs for my pic CD's took a dump... won't connect to anything by dialup. I have gotten in the habit of referring the people who ask about the Kustomsledd to this site and the Featured Projects on the main page. Would it be possible for the FP builders to be able to see how many views their page(s) has received, similar to the page count in the Journals? Just curious...


Hats off for the good work! :thumbup: :thumbup:


Doc
 

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Thanks for the support DrChop :).

Regarding Corky Coker -- he posted my email to him in his post, so I think we can be reasonably certain that it's him.

Regarding the featured projects -- it's possible, but not practical. Those are "flat" HTML pages, as opposed to programs that count the views as they are run, like the journal. I can look through our log files though, and see how many hits your project pages got in the past week, and we can extrapolate from there.

Yes, I've actually emailed our Monkey Boys Page to numerous automotive marketers, stating just what you've said: it's good educational material for them. Not just aftermarket marketers either. GM, Chrysler, etc. Marketing departments at universities are going to enjoy this too.

What's going on here is, as they say: "beyond the beyond". Truly outrageous. Funny though :).

I think these guys are just clueless as to how to market to us, and so out of touch it's mind-boggling. Consider the business owners that regularly visit here, and took the time to get "down in the trenches" with our members. They would never even consider trying to pull off a stunt like this. I understand that business politics prevent them from posting in this thread, but man, they must be shaking their heads in disbelief right now.

All things considered, I thought that we were pretty kind to Coker Tire and Newstalgia Wheel in our video, in my email, and in previous posts in this discussion. Now Corky Coker attacks my character, and tries to intimidate us. What a jerk. He's making himself look like a Dorky Joker.

It's like these guys come from another planet. When Corky busted out: "It looks like my brother just had these guys build a car for him", my jaw dropped to the ground, danced out the door, grabbed a taxi for the airport, and flew as far away from here as possible.
 

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Well heres my take on this whole thing. First off I had never heard of Gas Monkey Garage before this thread, I got here via a link from the HAMB. I also had never heard about Hotrodders.com. The good side of all this for me is I have found a site that is more my "speed" as I do not like all the drama and tuff guy stuff on the other site. I have to wonder though if you might not be helping the GMG by getting there name out to a larger audience then they might have had, I for one would never have seen that crap other then the interest this thread created. I do support you in that hot rodding does not need or deserve to be used by some quick money jerks to further fill there pockets, thats not what hot rodding is or ever has been. Mike
 

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Jonathan Rubenstien of Boulder, CO

Only small minded imbeciles with a brain capacity just barely high enough not to be called brain dead slander good people on forums and the internet. Jon, your jealous because you're not on tv, you run a 2 bit forum out of your trailer, and don't have half the brain cells to comprehend what Mr. Coker was trying to explain to you. He was very polite compared to how he could have been and you continue to badmouth him like a sissy. You must have been a truck driver at one point, one that talks all tough on the CB, but doesn't have the jewels to back it up. Here's my advice, watch what you say and who you say it to. You never know when it may really come back to bite you. Corky Coker and Coker Tire along with David Coker and Newstalgia Wheel are true assets to the Antique, collector, and Hot Rod community. You on the other hand, Jon, are worthless and should shut your 2 bit forum down. You're nothing Jon...

Bye,
Man
 

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Just a heads up to everyone that "Corky Coker" and "Man" are using the exact same IP address. Here's a screenshot from the vBulletin admin control panel:




I'll save the log file data too, just in case. I think you should talk to your lawyer, Corky. You're way over the line. Try asking him what "wire fraud" means. Jerk.

BTW, I don't watch TV. And to propose that I'm jealous because I'm not on it is ridiculous.

Corky Coker of Coker Tire -- we await a honest and genuine apology.
 

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[email protected]:~$ whois -H 66.18.46.201
Chattanooga Metronet Inc. METRONETCHATTANOOGA (NET-66-18-32-0-1)
66.18.32.0 - 66.18.63.255
Coker Tire Antique and Classic Tires COKERTIREANTIQUEANDCLASSICTIRES (NET-66-18-46-192-1)
66.18.46.192 - 66.18.46.207

# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2006-08-27 19:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.

-----

I'm guessing you'd prefer no one posted any more detailed information about the host at that address or its provider.
 

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Wow! Stay tuned for another saga of As the Gas Monkey Turns........Next Chapter.......Can Corky Redeem Himself? I think not :D
 
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