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Discussion Starter #1
If I drive my vehicle for more than 15 minutes, the engine will barely turn over when I try to restart it. Then if I wait for a few minutes, it will start right up, although the starter does seem to drag a bit.

I have replaced the battery, starter selonoid, all the battery cables. I have had 3 different starters in it. I have also installed a direct battery ground cable to the starter. None of these helped the situation.

I'm open to suggestions.
 

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Almost sounds like the timing is too far advanced. My 400m used to do this, reset the timing back to factory spec, and it started normally again.
 

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Wouldn't the timing being advanced cause similair starting problems in the first place? I mean why would it change after running 15 minutes? Just from the engine getting overly hot? You'd think he'd have detonation problems if this were so.

I'd do like 68 Nova said and make sure your solenoid isn't getting roasted in those 15 minutes. Heat building up causes more electrical resistance thus not allowing all of the power to get to the starter. Unless you have great header (or manifold) clearance from your solenoid Id be running a heat shield.
 

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I dont see it as a timing problem or it would do it all the time. I had a motor home with a 400 chevy in it that did that. The heat shield around the starter did the trick. I made mine and made it so it would scoop air up around the starter.
 

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Any motor is harder to start when hot....if the timing is advanced too much, that will compound the problem. Back the timing off and try it, bet it makes a difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Sorry. I forgot to put that information in my post. I checked the timing.

It was correct so I tried setting it back a little bit more then specs. That produced a lack of power. It remanded hard starting.

The engine has stock cast iron exhaust manifolds. When I recabled the wiring, I rerouted it so it's not close to any heat.

I doubt if it is a starter/heat issue. After a 5 minute cool off, the engine will turn over (with difficulty) and start.

The neutral safety switch has given me some problems in the past. I have thought about bridging the switch, to eliminate it as a possible problem area. Could it be causing a problem?
 

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If retarding the timing doesn't help, I think it's the starter.............drawing too much juice. Brushes may be worn down or bearings are bad and causing a partial short.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I have had 3 different starters in it. All produced the same results. The first two starters were mass production rebuilds. The third one was rebuilt by a local business that takes extra care in the rebuild process. They do excellet work. It also had the same problem.

It's not the starter.
 

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Is this a chevy engine? Do you have spacers between the engine and block? Are you using starter bolts or regular bolts.? I fixed a similar problem on my Chevy with spacers.
 

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Sounds like a starter going out.Heat buildup will kill the solenoid,especially if this is on a Chevy engine.
 

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Heat Issues

Doc here::pimp:

Heat swamping Issues have been an issue with General Mystery Starting systems for years...Get A HEAT shield or wrap. GM makes a standard SBC shield for that purpose.

New or not, If the Solenoid, or starter Bearings/windings Get overheated they will expand and DRAW more current to produce LESS work.

If the plunger on the solenoid starter drive expands so as to "Drag" or even lock in the plunger tube..It will take much more current to hold the drive gear against the flex-plate than when cool...and will rob the starter of the use of that current..to turn the motor.

If the Armature or shaft expands it will drag against bearings or ride on the Field magnets demanding at least twice the current to do half the work...

For a Simple test, Load check it , first cold, then hot The numbers should go way up hot...


Another TEST is :
Get an 8 or so foot section of Dryer Vent hose, and route ram air directly towards the starter.Drive it ..It should work normally Hot provided you don't idle it too much (no ram air)If it starts warm, get the shield.

Heat Shields are cheap and easy to install and SHOULD fix the problem.

Doc :pimp:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
curly5759 said:
Is this a chevy engine? Do you have spacers between the engine and block? Are you using starter bolts or regular bolts.? I fixed a similar problem on my Chevy with spacers.
Nope, not a Chevy. 88 Ford 351 with a manual trans.

I really doubt it's a starter bearing problem. That would mean all three rebuilt starters had exactly the same problem as the old starter I took out.

Putting in a new external (mounted on the inner fender liner) solenoid didn't change the condition.

The heat shield suggestion is about all I have left. Sigh. I hope it works. I'm get tired of planning my gas station stops. The only time I can get gas is when the engine is cold.
 

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Three startes may be signaling to the positive cable from the solenoid to the starter.Is it getting hot or have some corrosion inside an unseen cut,allowing to much resistance once it is warmed up.
 

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I have a 81 Ford F150 w/ a new 351 in it.
(Work truck, not mine) After we rebuilt the engine, we had problems similar to yours.

I replaced the battery cables with 2 gauge , they had been 4 gauge. Starts super now,hot or cold. Truck used to work fine with the old cables. All I can figure is the increased compression (stock rebuild) over the old worn engine required more amps than the cables could supply
 

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Cable

Doc here:

On the FORD:

ELECTRICAL:
Get a 0 or 1/0 Cable from the parts store with ring terminals on both ends.

Run that cable between a mounting foot on the solenoid, to the starter mounting bolt.

BE Sure the Ground cable comes from the battery to a bolt in the area of the Starter and grounds the block there (I think you mentioned you have done this). Run the solenoid GROUND to this bolt.

Use STAR washers and lock washers at both ends, and burnish The paint around the bolt holes.

This Will assure both are on the same "HARD" ground, and deliver the best ground possible to both units.

Another thing to try, Move the solenoid as CLOSE as possible to the starter, and replace The Positive Cable with a shorter larger gauge cable.

This will "Shorten " up the run of cable from the Normally open side of the contact to the starter motor.

Both afford current drops, Albeit minor in some, may be the "Dividing " line on yours when the parts are hot.

This SHOULD totally eliminate the COMMON problems that occur with hot start, Electrically.

Mechanically:

Quote:
I really doubt it's a starter bearing problem. That would mean all three rebuilt starters had exactly the same problem as the old starter I took out.

Quote:
New or not, If the Solenoid, or starter Bearings/windings Get overheated they will expand and DRAW more current to produce LESS work.If the Armature or shaft expands it will drag against bearings or ride on the Field magnets demanding at least twice the current to do half the work...

Even BRAND new stuff expands and contracts if it's exposed to high heat...(good cold, bad hot..)

I'm sure this has occurred even on new cars right off the line at some point or another..
Does not mean it's bad or defective (yet) Just that some provision must be made to make it run cooler.

THE TIP off here is 3 starters with exactly the same symptoms...Heat swamp.

Heat shield or heat wrap is the thing to try here.

It could be ANYTHING from a partially clogged cat, to a dent in the exhaust pipe, or a stuck heat riser or EFE to even a slight header gasket leak blowing hot air on the starter, Causing the temps to rise at the starter over before... So heat shield / Wrap is the easiest way to go...

Try those, And I think you'll Resolve the problem.

Hope it helps!

Doc :pimp:
 

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I agree,the motor will require more amperage hot,big cables with quality ends that I solder on and the baddest battery money can buy are a must for me anymore,it keeps the gremlins from nesting under the hood,its great to have one spin right up,but its also easier on the starter,if it cant spin it becomes a heating coil. Some weld supply stores make for a good resource,shoot,I run a 1200 amp battery with 0 size cable on my 6 cyl.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
All the cabling is new. No more than 6 months old. That includes both the positive and negative cables. All the connection points (battery, engine block, & etc.) were cleaned to bare, shiney metal and then had electrical connection compound (to stop oxidation) applied to them.
 

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Well,electrical stuff drives me crazy,I will tell you this one thing I have found out the hard way more than once,just because its new and appears good don't mean squat. I have had new junk cables because of the way they were crimped,they seemed great but only contacted a portion of the strands and burned the rest internally and held a load about as good as speaker wire,I could go on forever about other new stuff that was crud,I had a new condenser once that was bad that followed another bad new one and near sent me to the loony bin. When it comes to electrical,expect the unexpected I say.
 
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