[Jag Daddy]

OK I'm confused, I've seen videos on single, double, bubble and GM fuel line flares. My Mustang has what look to be GM style flares on the vacuum and fuel lines where they connect up to rubber lines. Unfortunately I don know what tool makes those and style flares and how they are made. I need to make some new hard line from a 10 Micron filter up to the new Holley Sniper system. I could reuse the original line from the mechanical pump as a template for the curves and bends but it's not the correct diameter, it's also to short to get to the new filter. Anyone know the tool and the name of these type flares?
Thanks
Mark

 

[cerial]

Are you talking about this?

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-systems/fuel-line-repair/p/dorman-oe-solutions-3-8in-x-4in-steel-fuel-line-with-16mm-fitting-repair-kit/904633_0_0?cmpid=LIA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:GEN:71700000069889792&gclid=CjwKCAjwjJmIBhA4EiwAQdCbxjcopd5_BF7T_-IVDYmgxBAhPdJQoBdDVr9TOxabscHkSnjFKpvP9RoCiNAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

That is my fix for making that flare. You can run a section of fuel line over the end then test it at 100 to 200psi depending on the line and pump output.

The above fitting with gates barricade fuel line (over 200psi) and steel brake line I have tested over 150psi(air) and ran at 60 psi on 2 soon to be 3 rides without issue.

 

[joe_padavano]

The feature on the end of a hard line that retains a rubber tube is called a bead. There are special beading tools. They are not cheap. A bubble flare usually works, but without the short straight length of hard line before the bead, it can be difficult to get the hose over the end.

 

[joe_padavano]

This video shows you how it works.

 

[cerial]

Thats one speciality tool I just can not justify.
These fittings cost between $5 to $10 each depending on the length. That might be $50 for a entire car.

Here is a soft line to nylon line double flare adapter.

Fuel Line Adapter - 5/16 Rubber Hose to 5/16 Nylon - 2 per Bag - AGS Company

Fuel Line Repair

agscompany.com

Once you have nylon you can heat up and push the newer fittings on(youtube) the end or use another of these(2 in package) to go back to rubber.


A tip for getting the rubber over the flare on the end is to grease the end of the tube then torch the very end of the hose for a second. Push the hose on in one swift push while twisting the tube or hose (which ever is easier) until it bottoms or is a good inch on past the flare.

Once on I use 2 clamps 180 degrees apart. But I often need to cut the line off to remove the line because it hugs the tube so tight. The clamps are just for good measure.

 

[joe_padavano]

Thats one speciality tool I just can not justify.
These fittings cost between $5 to $10 each depending on the length. That might be $50 for a entire car.

Here is a soft line to nylon line double flare adapter.

Fuel Line Adapter - 5/16 Rubber Hose to 5/16 Nylon - 2 per Bag - AGS Company

Fuel Line Repair

agscompany.com

Once you have nylon you can heat up and push the newer fittings on(youtube) the end or use another of these(2 in package) to go back to rubber.


A tip for getting the rubber over the flare on the end is to grease the end of the tube then torch the very end of the hose for a second. Push the hose on in one swift push while twisting the tube or hose (which ever is easier) until it bottoms or is a good inch on past the flare.

Once on I use 2 clamps 180 degrees apart. But I often need to cut the line off to remove the line because it hugs the tube so tight. The clamps are just for good measure.

Can't say that I disagree with you. I will suggest that you only use silicone grease, however. Petroleum products will eventually attach rubber hoses.

 

[ekimneirbo]

If you are running a 58 psi fuel system, I would not use fuel lines that just slip over a raised rib and are then secured by some sort of clamp.............. If you get even a minor leak it can spray fuel and burn your car down in a heartbeat. This is not the place where you should pinch pennies. Please post some pictures of what you are trying to hook up. There are lots of ways to connect fuel lines so that they don't leak. You can buy JIC fittings much more cheaply than AN fittings and they are just as good. They are whats used on industrial equipment, they just aren't certified for the space shuttle and they probably won't be anodized.

The Chevy fittings are push on connectors. They are not the same as the bead that Joe suggested. They "might work" with a push on, but I have my doubts. There are other types of solid fittings but we have to see what you are trying to hook up.

While on this subject, there are a bunch of different manufacturers of specialty tube flaring tools. They are not cheap, but if you are going to fool with old cars and fuel injection, you probably should invest in a set and a 37 degree flaring tool. The 37 degree tool does not work like nornal flaring tool for copper line although they look similar. The copper tool simply pushes straight into the copper with a tapered cone and leaves a 45 degree flare. The 37 uses a cone, but it turns on a slight eccentric motion and gradually works the steel/aluminum/stainless outward. It operates that way because pushing straight in will crack the harder materials. Thats why they cost more. I spent about $75 for one and its just fine. When you use a 37 degree flare, it is a "single" flare, meaning single thickness of the wall. It will have a sleeve that fits between it and the nut.

If you buy one of the flaring kits, they will do most anything as long as you do it before you install it on the car. There are other tools that can do it after the line is in place. Be aware that these kits come in various stages of completeness, so when you see a cheaper one it usually is lacking some flares. The GM push on is usually one that the cheaper ones lack. Its best to pay more to get all the flares. Most people never justify to themselves that they need something like this, and then over the years they spend even more money looking for other solutions on subsequent vehicles.

Without seeing what you have, I'm going to say that getting a 37 degree flaring tool and buying some JIC fittings will be the least expensive solution to do it right. Again, with the higher pressure (58 psi), I would not use a beaded tube with a clamp behind it.

 

[Jag Daddy]

Oh boy more tools! Actually I have the one flare tool with the bar. OK after looking at the fuel line and filter it's a bubble flare. But the bead tool is what I was looking for to do the vacuum lines. I was going to replace some of the vacuum lines with hard line where I could. Thanks for in info on the bead tool

So by the photos you can see the line from the tank and the 10 Micron filter. I was going to connect them with a short piece of Earls Vapor guard hose. But I wanted to go from the output side of the filter to a hard line up the front of the block then to the Sniper via a A6N connector. Oh I'll be replacing the grommet around the fuel line too. That's an Evil Energy fuel pump clamp with the rubber removed that's holding the filter.
Thanks
Mark

 

[cerial]

Ok with that fuel filter plan on cutting the line each time you change the fuel filter. I run these fuel filters and run a push to connect barb fitting when running solid line.

This allows me to cut a section of 4" line on each side of the fuel filter and remove it the line from the hard fittings.

I bring the new filter over to the bench install new 4" sections at each end of the filter install 4 clamps total.

Note I have tested these without clamps and as long as your running J30 R9 they will hold 150 psi all day long which in most basic 60 psi fuel systems is more then twice whats needed. I just run clamps for added clamping force to keep that hose tight around the tube as a piece of mind.

Then installing it is as easy as pushing the hose over the push to connect fittings and securing the filter with a bolt.


Now that through connection is lets admit scary. That needs some work. The hose wants to stay straight and on a curve like that you WILL have leaks.
When you have a curve like that it is best to have at least a inch or two after the end and before any hard curvature.

Now for that I would run hard brake line to a fitting then have that bend.
If that means you need to change this fitting or tank end then thats needed. It should have been a straight connection.

Brake line allows you to run large sections of fuel line in a cheap manner. You simply must make sure that the fittings to the flexible R9 hose are the same.

 

[Jag Daddy]

Yeah, the line through the inner fender is where I was having more than second thoughts on. The original mechanical fuel pump sites pretty close to it and pulled fuel up to it. The bend made sense since it needed to loop up so that angle was not an issue. Also since the pump pulled fuel this was the low pressure side and the filter hooked directly to the carb after the pump which had only a 3 inch hose from hard line to the filter.

I wonder if I could cut back the solid line and add a bulkhead pass through in the same location and go from there. I was talking with one of the guys at out meet and he said I might be able to use Philips screw driver insert it inside and take the bend out of it, but I don't know how much bend I could get out of it.

So going back to your point about bends in the hose, do you have the acceptable bend radius for R9 hose?
Thanks
Mark

 

[cerial]

Ok here is my return line on my 87. You want to bend the hard line and keep the flexible line straight.

Every other of my lines that have fuel in them have a straight connection. The fittings have the bend.

The hard line and sending unit both have over a inch of coverage here. The two hard lines are flared and dang near touching. It was the only way to connect the two in the application.

Here are my vent lines.

These have to much bend and the hose is slightly colapsing. This should have a hard line in this area. If this was fuel the hose would encounter stresses and could potentially fail.

Here are the fittings I will be using on my 89. Ignore the white tape it is coming off and aviation sealant used on those threads.

These are all push on barb fittings and that additional barb allows for great sealing. The (black) push to connect fittings do not require a clamp. This is ideally what you want to use with flexable hose.

Here is the fuel filter I use.
Easily over a inch past the barb and I can easily run 2 clamps per side.

So run hard line in a majority of your fuel system. If you need areas of flexable line keep those areas straight. If you need tight bends use fittings that make those bends if at all possible. Where possible use fittings with at least 2 barbs.

One last note. If you use hard line with a single barb like I did with the return line it must must be steel line. Nicopp will crush on one side and will not seal. With Nicopp you need to double flare it then run a brake fitting to a threaded barb fitting to ensure a proper seal.

 

[ekimneirbo]

Here is a good video........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFJ2ilmT5Lw

 

[Jag Daddy]

I want to thank you guys for all the help, this is by far the biggest project I've done. Almost everything that was questionable is getting replaced on the car so it's been a long haul. My wife has been awesome through this hole thing and she can't wait for me to take her out in the Mustang on a Date/Cruse.

This area (Fuel system) is one I consider critical and I don't want to cheap it just so I can get it to run. As was stated fuel under pressure next to hot exhaust is a recipe for something very bad to happen. I'm sorry I ask so many questions here, but as I've stated before this is by far the deepest I've ever gone on a project car. Repairing or replacing almost 60 years of wear and tear is quite a job. Every time to fix one thing you'll find 2 more to do. Again I can't reiterate how much I appreciate all of your input.

And now I have another question, I've been looking at almost every type of hard line available, I've been really interested in the Copper/Nickel stuff. Looks like it fits for ease of bending and it says it EFI rated. Not cheap at $53.00 for 25 feet. Which is way more than I need. But I'll have some extra in case I screw up the first attempt. Have any of you used this stuff.
Thanks
Mark

 

[ekimneirbo]

First let me say that I'm a confessed "tool-a-holic". What I found was that going ahead and getting good tools lets you do the work more professionally. I'm also someone who likes to adapt things and have lots of "others peoples junk" stashed away. You can get some good fuel lines with push connectors off old junk cars. Cut them off if necessay, but try to remove them in as long a length as possible. That provides you with factory formed push connect ends. You can join them to existing fuel lines with either a brass fitting (works fine) or a more expensive JIC or AN 37 degree fitting and ferule. If you are running a factory style "in tank" pump, that provides the correct connection for a push on connector. At the business end of the fuel line, you can buy the shrink fit push on connectors to make it look nice. It takes some head scratchin to see what fittings you need, but its a learning process that will help you in the future. Personally, I don't care for the Red and Blue Annodized alum look. Black is OK I guess. I try to buy the JIC stuff that made out of steel and cheaper to buy. Same 37 degrees though. I believe Earl's sells a fitting that is push on, but uses the 37 degrees and a ferrule to adapt it to a straight line. Still though, you need some type of flexible line somewhere near the engine though.

 

[adantessr]

Are you talking about this?

https://www.autozone.com/fuel-systems/fuel-line-repair/p/dorman-oe-solutions-3-8in-x-4in-steel-fuel-line-with-16mm-fitting-repair-kit/904633_0_0?cmpid=LIA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:GEN:71700000069889792&gclid=CjwKCAjwjJmIBhA4EiwAQdCbxjcopd5_BF7T_-IVDYmgxBAhPdJQoBdDVr9TOxabscHkSnjFKpvP9RoCiNAQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

That is my fix for making that flare. You can run a section of fuel line over the end then test it at 100 to 200psi depending on the line and pump output.

The above fitting with gates barricade fuel line (over 200psi) and steel brake line I have tested over 150psi(air) and ran at 60 psi on 2 soon to be 3 rides without issue.

Brake systems use upwards of 1500 psi. So that’s not a problem. A slight flare on the end of the brake tubing where the hose slides on is an absolute necessity.

 

[ericnova72]

NiCopp is great stuff for fuel line.....more long term durable tha aluminum hard line, easier to bend and flare than steel hard line.

volvo first started using Ni-Copp something like 30 years ago....and Volvo doesn't skimp on anything safety or durability related.

It's all I use for fuel or brake line unless it's a total show rod that needs or owner wants polished stainless.

 

[ekimneirbo]

Brake systems use upwards of 1500 psi. So that’s not a problem. A slight flare on the end of the brake tubing where the hose slides on is an absolute necessity.

No, this is for Fuel lines where someone needs the push on type of GM connector at the fuel tank/pump, or the fuel rail. You warm the black hose and slip it over the metal tube. When it cools, it shrinks around the metal tube and is supposed to be leak free.

 

[cerial]

If you want to use nicopp brake hose you MUST use a double flare fitting.

AN perfered. But it can also be done using brass just as long as you match the threads..

The main thing is to limit your flexible line lengths as much as possible. Try to run as much solid line front to end even if it requires it to be in 3 or 4 pieces.

I found a video to explain it better. Showing it under the car like we will be. Most tech inspectors(rule books) want to see the line covered and less then 2 feet of flexible line from the tank to the throttlebody/rail.

 

[adantessr]

No, this is for Fuel lines where someone needs the push on type of GM connector at the fuel tank/pump, or the fuel rail. You warm the black hose and slip it over the metal tube. When it cools, it shrinks around the metal tube and is supposed to be leak free. View attachment 618157

Oh yeah. I remember that now. I believe my ‘98
Silverado has that type of connection.

 

[Jag Daddy]

I've been looking for a decent 37 degree flaring tool, I can't believe the price difference between a 45 degree and a 37 degree tool. I've been reading that most automotive flares are 45 degree. But the AN-6 stuff is all 37 degree. So are automotive bubble flares based on a 45 degree tool? Also does anyone know of a good dual flare tool? Seems like that's the best bet if I'm going to spend the cash.
Thanks
Mark