[ispeedalot]

I just recently picked up my car shell from the media blaster today and on the way home I got caught in some light raindrops. It by no way was soaked but between the rain and humidity I can see surface rust already. The plan was to have it striped, brought home and cleaned of media, wiped down with degreaser and then primed with some DP40LF epoxy. I needed to do some sheet metal replacement even though the car is pretty solid and I wanted to get all the grease, grime, and undercoating off before doing so. Because this is going to be an ongoing process, I was led to believe that the epoxy was my best option in protecting the fresh metal till I could finish all the work. Now I need to remove the surface rust (flash rust) that has begun showing it’s ugly head. I have used a red scotch brite pad and it does take it off with a lot of effort. I have also used a 3M-scotch brite roloc disk and a conditioner disk, all of which works and probably would be doable albeit a slow process seeing as I have the whole shell inside and out to do. The problem is the areas that you are not going to be able to get those into. . I feel I will have to use some type of metal prep / wash to get all the areas converted. Maybe I can explain a little better, I had the shell thermally baked and then glass beaded. This removes everything and I do mean everything, no seam sealer bondo or even the lead at the quarter and roof joint. When I picked it up, the metal was as you would expect to see if it was lightly blasted, clean and slightly gray. Now for the most part the entire shell has taken on a light brown color, all in a day and a half. When you run your fingers over it, they turn brown. I am being told that any thing that is a type of acid prep will keep me from being able to use the epoxy primer I had planed on using (DP40LF). Picklex 20 or something similar has been suggested but was warned not to do so under the epoxy I was planning on using. I am also aware that you must wipe dry most of these converters so as not to leave an excessive amount of residue on the surface or you could have future adhesion problems. Someone recommended this stuff (www.zerorustusa.com/prepstep.php). It claims to be acid free so I am assuming it can be used under the epoxy that I have listed. Since I was also concerned about the other types of converters gathering in areas that I might not be able to wipe down or get at with out more than just an air hose, such as seems and inner panels, Zero Rust Prep Step looked to be a better fit, as it didn't list excess removal as a requirement. The shell is stored in an attached garage so it is reasonably protected but I didn’t want to run the risk of moisture getting under a typical primer and becoming a problem later on down the road. Am I right in thinking this? If I use an acid type of prep, is there another primer that might work for my purpose?

 

[dinger]

I wonder if some acetone and a coarse rag wouldn't do it.

 

[Rambo_The_Dog]

PPG DX579 followed by PPG DX520 should do the trick using scotchbrite.

DP40 is probably not needed after this treatment - but I believe it should be ok to use after the DX520 treatment, just check with the paint supply or PPG rep to make sure.

BTW - running your bare hands over the metal will make it rust again from the oils in your skin - wear gloves when dealing with clean bare metal.

 

[shine]

hit it with 80 grit and get it epoxied .

 

[SS66chevelle]

6 years ago when I had my chevelle acid dipped I came to this site to find this exact same answer. The advice I read was to use a zinc phosphor based rust remover solution. so I went searching around and found two products one was "metal ready" and the other was jasco prep and primer (they are essentially the same product by different mfg) The Jasco is no longer produced. When I ran out of Jasco, I used Metal Ready on the majority of my 66 chevelle SS and highly recommend it. The solution will remove that light surface rust and then seal the surface with zinc. I also have an extra cowl from my chevelle that was dipped 6 years ago, and I used the metal ready on it, and it's still bare metal and rust free!

Trust me on this one, you will not be disappointed. I know how much it costs to blast/acid dip and I know you are probably freaking out because all that money is seemingly down the drain. If you use this (or any similar product containing zinc) you can do all of your metal work prior to priming without worrying about it rusting, saving $$ and making it a lot easier to weld up the new sheet metal.

Check out the two images that I have attached of my roof. The left side has the metal ready applied and the right side is exactly what it looked like after the acid dip and 7 hour drive home from Indianapolis. The product is effortless to use, just pour it on a rag, and wipe off the rust - it does not even need to sit. (recommend wearing gloves even though it's "non toxic")

Good luck on your project, and I hope this helps!

Here is a link to the POR-15 site for metal ready
http://www.por15.com/METAL-READY/productinfo/MRG/

and here is the MFG description
METAL-READYTM provides the best adhesion for POR-15® on any metal surface, including aluminum and shiny polished metal surfaces. Our simple process gently etches metal, creating an ideal anchor pattern for coatings such as POR-15®, while simultaneously leaving a zinc phosphate coating to insure chemical bonding of paint and steel. Avoid other preps that may leave harmful residues which prevent proper adhesion. After thoroughly degreasing your work piece, apply environmentally safe METAL-READYTM to both neutralize any rust and etch any clean bare metal. This will allow better adhesion of POR-15® or any other paint. METAL-READYTM is not caustic, corrosive, toxic or flammable.

 

[shine]

we epoxy cars as soon as they are blasted and cleaned. it is by far the best thing to do . it gives you protection and better adhesion for primer and top coats. before you use any other product check with your paint rep as it may void any warranty .

 

[shine]

you need to advise the shop that there will be no warranty on the spi epoxy. keep in mind if it comes off later it will not be painters fault so don't expect him to be responsible for any paint failures. epoxy is best shot over bare clean metal sanded to 80 grit. epoxy after stripping is the best protection there is and has no adverse effects to the paint job. fillers can be applied over it with no problem and will actually have better adhesion than over metal.

 

[SS66chevelle]

Thats cool, at this point the only paintable surfaces it's on are the roof and other misc areas such as the floors (both sides) and the rockers. Every other panel was replaced (fenders, hood, full quarters up to the roof line, tail panel, inner/outer fenders front and back and the entire trunk) All of those had EDP coating on them which I didn't epoxy over. I might have them go ahead and take those primed areas back down to bare metal just because it was a "garage job". After 6 yrs and 25k in parts I definitely dont want a 10 footer!!

 

[mike the painter]

I've done it all differnt ways,sanding and epoxy is a good way but I've found that useing OSPHO is MUCH better...there are very specific proceedures that must be followed if your P&B guys cant read or follow directions it will most likely fail...however,if done properly it'll be FAR superior than any other way ,I've been useing it for every strip job I've done since the 80's and its never failed me,I wont even concider wasting my time stripping if I dont use it.and it's Much,Much better than etching primer also,just Pm me and I'll give you the details,this is one of those things that the pro's will get heated about but its only the ones that havent used it or have and screwed it up,its very ez to use even for an idiot like me,once you know how...I believe its just what your looking for......sorry guys but its all true....theres,good ,better and the best and this is the best,dont get me wrong ,theres nothing wrong good or better if thats what you want....... :sweat: :sweat: :sweat:

 

[mike the painter]

I've done it all differnt ways,sanding and epoxy is a good way but I've found that useing OSPHO is MUCH better...there are very specific proceedures that must be followed if your P&B guys cant read or follow directions it will most likely fail...however,if done properly it'll be FAR superior than any other way ,I've been useing it for every strip job I've done since the 80's and its never failed me,I wont even concider wasting my time stripping if I dont use it.and it's Much,Much better than etching primer also,just Pm me and I'll give you the details,this is one of those things that the pro's will get heated about but its only the ones that havent used it or have and screwed it up,its very ez to use even for an idiot like me,once you know how...I believe its just what your looking for......sorry guys but its all true....theres,good ,better and the best and this is the best,dont get me wrong ,theres nothing wrong good or better if thats what you want....... :sweat: :sweat: :sweat:

of coarse......this is just my opinion,nothing more nothing less

 

[shine]

i would rather epoxy over some surface rust than over acid . you get it into overlaps and you'll have a problem.

 

[mike the painter]

yes, I know Shine ,weve been through this all before.what exactly do you know about Ospho,specificly, that I dont?and just how much of it have you used to make you an expert? I forget.... Do you solder wire without flux(acid)? Do you do leadwork without acid? can humans live without acid? NO they cant even digest their food without acid. I knew you would be the first to voice your "opinion" and I understand sometimes you just cant teach an old dog new tricks. Did you read the part where I said I've used it for about 25 yrs? everything I've said is fact about "Ospho" What you would "rather" do is not important ,just your opinion. But this is: Have you ever used it? I have done many tests and experiments with and without Ospho under many types of primer including laquer,I took pics also I've done many experiments with epoxy,2k,Spi epoxy,and various other primers,I've also discussed the results with your hero Barry K in detail..mabee you should discuss my results with him before we get into this again but not on this mans thread it'll be on my thread "all about ospho and epoxies and other primers",complete with unbiased results and pics.I've been preparing this Thread since our last discussion.talk to barry....sorry for taking up so much of your thread Mr. speedalot ....but now my finger hurtsalot....if anything I've said is of intrest to you pm me and anyone else for that matter..you can leave treated metal for long ,long periods of time before priming,(it wont get surface rust) giving you plenty of time to do all your welding and patching,keep an open mind and sometimes we all learn.keep this in mind ...the cleaner the surface the better the adhesion. :sweat: :sweat: :thumbup:

 

[ispeedalot]

Deadbodyman, I�m sorry you�re fingers hurtsalot LMAO. No really I think debating and other ideas are great as long as one can be open minded. Sometimes people just need to agree to disagree. Now that the lecture is over LOL. I got an answer back from the PPG rep. His response, DPLF epoxy was hands down the best product to use directly on media blasted metal (key words being, media blasted) however the best product for neutralizing rust is the DX520 Metal Conditioner which should be used after the DX579 Metal Cleaner. The epoxy can be used on top of the Metal Conditioner but only if it had been applied on smooth sheet metal such as stripped (key words being, smooth metal). He felt that even the very mild glass bead would have left too much texture for the Metal Conditioner to be used. His explanation was that Metal Conditioners in general are made up of an phosphoric acid, that acid could potentially collect in all the low areas to a point it would create bonding issues with the epoxy, thus the reason it is recommended that you only work small areas at a time to wipe / remove excess before it has time to dry on the surface and create the same situation even on smooth metal. He recommended sanding or blasting the metal again. Looks as if I will be having the body blasted again. The vendor said he would do the entire shell again on Monday for $150.00 and would need 2-3hrs to complete. For the money, I doubt I would want to sand or take the chance of using the metal conditioner, what do you guy's think? So far the weather looks completely dry next week and be less humid so I am keeping my fingers crossed. Hopefully clean and prep Monday and shoot the epoxy Tuesday morning. I do have to agree that if the epoxy is that sensitive to the acid �pooling�, I would think panel seams and lap joints would be a nightmare to paint over? He also didn�t recommend another primer that might be less susceptible to the metal conditioner for my particular application. I also questioned him about using something like Zero Rust Prep Step that is suppose to be acid free and he said he couldn't advise.

 

[ispeedalot]

I have read some good things about SPI on here and other forums. I didn’t really think the PPG guy was going to advise me on any of the products they don’t make so yea I pretty much expected the answer he gave. I just felt it didn’t hurt to at least ask. However I did feel like he could give me some good advice with the product they carry and how to use it. I like the fact I can get the PPG product basically next door and I will need it by Tuesday. Since I am pretty green to doing this amount of paintwork, I felt it best to stick to one company for products. I have some experience with the PPG stuff albeit limited and have had good results. I still wouldn’t mind hearing about this OSPHO, I don’t take the car in till Monday so I still have time to change my mind.

 

[mike the painter]

ok sir speedsalot, I just finished the rest,this is what I'd do if it was me...dont worry about the surface rust...first get a few red scotch brite scuff pads(I use old ones that I save)but new ones are great,a box of latex gloves HF 5.00,a big box of prep towels (paper) from lowes 10.00 or white shop towels from auto zone 3.00 a roll,a quart of ospho 15.00,a gal of SPI epoxy and a gal of activator(two sprayable gal.) 170.00 two - four hours of time(priceless) ok scrub the ospho in with red scuff pad and watch the rust disolve and shiny metal appear,do half the roof keeping it all wet,wipe it down with paper shop towels cleaning off the excess ,go to other side and repete...let it sit 24hrs ...it dries ...it'll never stay wet or leave wet spots in pits (I know) the next day or before you want to prime (a yearfrom now) sand with 180 when it dries its a primer it needs to be sanded as would any coating.ok I think I coverd it all its late ,I'll reread this in the morning and edit what I missed Oh the gloves go on your hands its acid ,mild but it ....stingsalot :mwink:.I only know about and recomend ospho,no other product,ospho by that name only I've never tried the others (no need)good night .... :drunk:

 

[mike the painter]

I have read some good things about SPI on here and other forums. I didn’t really think the PPG guy was going to advise me on any of the products they don’t make so yea I pretty much expected the answer he gave. I just felt it didn’t hurt to at least ask. However I did feel like he could give me some good advice with the product they carry and how to use it. I like the fact I can get the PPG product basically next door and I will need it by Tuesday. Since I am pretty green to doing this amount of paintwork, I felt it best to stick to one company for products. I have some experience with the PPG stuff albeit limited and have had good results. I still wouldn’t mind hearing about this OSPHO, I don’t take the car in till Monday so I still have time to change my mind.

theres nothing wrong with feeling safe it'll cost much more and probably work just fine for you.this is just and option for 15.00 buy some treat a hood leave it outside in the weather but by all means if you feel safe with ppg use it,it'll work ,did you know that 2k sticks to bare metal just fine without epoxy it sands and feathers nice too?but I use epoxy because its better.BUT never touch bare metal with bare hands it'll start instantly rusting even under primer always handle bare metal with gloves and dont lean on your bare metal car with a sweaty tee shirt water and salt and oils dont mix well with metal or paint :welcome:heres part of one of my experiments ,I laid my hand on bare metal and this is the next day ,imagine if I primed this before I left ..It'll still keep on rusting under the primer ,even epoxy,so wear the gloves no matter what proceedure youse use....it'llrustalot and you'll repaintalot.....oops and a shot of treated bare metal after four months bare with ospho

 

[shine]

phosphoric acid is nothing new . the first time i used it was 1967 on a 49 merc so i know a little about it. enough not to recommend it to a novice who may or may not get it neutralized . just like soda it can be done with success and it can also destroy 6 years of work and a ton of money in this case. you can talk to any paint tech from any manufacture and they will tell you the same thing about acid or soda. wonder why ? surface rust is no big deal . you can scuff it off and epoxy over it. it will not continue to rust as the epoxy will seal it.
money spent on blasting a car is well spent. first you get rid of the rust and paint. second you have an anchor pattern for the epoxy. in several days you have the car ready for the shop to start on and it is protected. 2k primer over metal is not a recommended process as it is porous and does not seal the metal from moisture . always epoxy first. the fewer chemicals and solvents you use in a job the better. it is important that they all be compatible.
true this is my opinion and is worth what you paid for it. but it is backed up by over 40 years in the custom refinishing business . my work speaks for it's self .

what is done to the car in question needs to be decided by the owner and the man who will have to warranty the job. it is their wallet that will suffer in the event of a failure.

 

[mike the painter]

Neutalize it? it dries you dont neutalize it,are we talking about Ospho? Its so ez to use a dummy like me can use it.other than that.....WE finaly agree on something and your work DOES speak for itself Shine, you do fantastic work and care about quality enough to do it all yourself too.Thats why I speak so highly of you (behind your back) to anyone that wants to restore a vette your the best I've seen. oh yeah and we agree on the best materials to use too(except this one) that "I" swear by,But like you I wont budge an inch on this one (ospho, not acid) there is a differance....its compatible with everything.I've even had good success with laquer primer over it in my little experments ,not that I'd do it but it can be done it makes all the primers stick like crazy.in fact it is a primer when it dries...I'm not tring to change anyones mind or push it on anyone just trying to seperate fact from fiction.I hope I've succeded...the choice's are the owners responsibility but an informed choice is always best there are many many options based on the budget to get the best bang for the buck but its my understanding that 90% of the guys here are working stiffs and simply cant afford the very best and thats why they choose to do it themselves plus the love of the work ,but I use this on EVERY car I strip no matter how much I'm getting for the job....And dont get the impression I'm trying to kiss yerass,that'll NEVER happen,just calling it like I see it,and trying to approch this issue like a professional with the limited typing and puntuation skills I have.(something else i'm working on)

 

[timg]

Been reading this with interest. What is the difference between Ospho and Phosphoric Acid? It is my understanding that is the main ingredient of Ospho.

Shine, could you please describe the correct method for using Phosphoric Acid? How to apply and how to remove (before or after drying.. do you use water or wax/grease remover). Do you scrub it into the rust or do you leave it sit and come back later?

Do you need to scrub off the layer of iron phosphate and then reapply?

Lots to know about PA and I can't seem to find a defenitive answer on its use.

Thanks

Tim

 

[shine]

it would just turn into another argument. i suggest you read this thread by randy fegunson. he is by far the most knowlegeable person on this site to ask. if it's metal ask randy , if it's paint ask barry. there is just too much bs info going around on here. if you need to ask me a question by all means send me an email and i'll try to help. with that said i'll just say i dont do rust conversions and leave it at that. i remove it.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/sec...al-revealed-55679.html?highlight=rust+removal