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Discussion Starter #161
I'm awake....just pondering how much pressure you're using to do your thing. You should almost be able to slide the panel around so you don't stretch it too much. Too much crown and you're screwed. You would then need to stretch the edges only to take out the access crown.


And no driving here....:(
No driving?:confused:

How much pressure? Well yes I am talking slides around loose but I am straightning. Theres air between the wheels but also dents. I tried hard to avoid additional stretching but some happens, of course. As far as I know, theres no way for me to quantify how much pressure I am using. Our cheapo unit sucks, it won't keep the anvil centered and the quick release lever just spins so it is virtually impossible to do nice stuff with. Not so much an excuse there as just a relevant fact. But its what I have. What are you seeing that causes you to wonder?

Have you read where I explained about removing flanges from window panel and quarters? I could stretch the areas in question horribly and it would only mean added excess material to trim away before the butt weld.
 

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Discussion Starter #162
I hope I don't get too big for my britches here.

One of the things you can do with the E-wheel is add the crown back into a pancaked panel using the same technique you would use if you were making an A model hood with the wheel instead of using a slip roll.

Place the panel cross ways in the wheel with no pressure and with a very low crown anvil. As you draw the panel out gently push the leading edge down. Repeat all along the panel repeatedly until you have restored the crown accross the panel. That, of course would be much easier if the roof section was apart and you weren't trying to manipulate a 5 foot square piece of floppy roof.

Here are a couple of pictures of me adding the roll on the bottom of the rear quarter for the '53. At this point there is no pressure on the wheels so the panel is not growing, just bending.



Understood. I used this technique on the window panel but theres not room on the roof side. The crown I mentioned restoring is not straight across, its humped in the middle so its not slip roller material but there is one of those on hand. That is, it should be but I have no reference for how much and thats why I would like to have the roof insert panel on hand as a reference. I assume that even if I do restore the correct curve, the front of the panel would still be too wide but not completely as a result of my fixing, but from the initial damage. Thats why I explained about removing flanges. Stretching just almost doesn't matter because I am doing it that way.

In my pic of the two anvils, the one on the left was used longways across the panel and the flatter one on the right is what I used for what you are describing, and mainly just above the window. No pressure on the wheel but I may not be holding it perfectly level. Thats what I am practicing, just guiding the wheel without a lot of unintentional blunders. I certainly appreciate your guidance and pics. What I am obviously not grasping is why I get comments about using too much pressure so I'll ask you too: What are you seeing that indicates I have adjusted the wheels too tightly? Or are you? Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #163
That's a little bit dismantled. lol
And mostly just using a house painter's baseboard tool. Man these cars are built like old houses. There was just no reason to not blow it all apart. I cringe thinking of how weak pillars on chops done with the car all together must be. Every chance I get, I will beef up this body. That engine in this chassis is a recipie for squirrely. Which is better than a deathtrap stocker on crash-and-live factor but still... I think I can stiffen up the body a little during my process and it will be less like driving a metal tool shed.
 

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Slow but willing learner
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I don't know that you are using too much pressure. If you are bending the metal or taking the lumps out of it then you want to use no pressure to speak of. If you use pressure, you will displace metal and grow the panel creating shape or form.

It seems to me you have a pretty good grasp of what you are doing. The biggest challenge for me is a low crown panel like a door skin. The bigger, the more challenging. I will be watching intently to see how your side skin works out.

Keep on keeping on and we will be in the bleachers cheering! :thumbup:

John
 

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Rod...from a Chrysler?
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No driving?:confused:

How much pressure? Well yes I am talking slides around loose but I am straightning. Theres air between the wheels but also dents. I tried hard to avoid additional stretching but some happens, of course. As far as I know, theres no way for me to quantify how much pressure I am using. Our cheapo unit sucks, it won't keep the anvil centered and the quick release lever just spins so it is virtually impossible to do nice stuff with. Not so much an excuse there as just a relevant fact. But its what I have. What are you seeing that causes you to wonder?

Have you read where I explained about removing flanges from window panel and quarters? I could stretch the areas in question horribly and it would only mean added excess material to trim away before the butt weld.

I'm seeing nothing. Just advising, seeing as you're a newb. :thumbup:


Actually, I just realized, I'm not seeing a mirror polished panel after your wheeling, so that's good. If it was mirror glossy, that would indicate a lot of squeeze. so, double... :thumbup: :thumbup:
 
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Discussion Starter #166
Newb advice is exactly it, thanks guys. I have most of an hour in it, stopped for lunch. Boss has parts order ready to send, needs to know if this is a go. Hell I can't say quite yet. With time, maybe I can do this. Maybe not. Don't know how this looks or really even how its going but the extra length does add difficulty. Might lop it off. Piece is 48x24" to start with. Pics are a glare challenge. Talk to me, I'll be back at it in a jiffy. Needs more lengthwise curvature but the four foot length causes the dreaded blomping without an assistant. At one hour in, I am neither en or dis couraged, just trying to do it. I would not call this a low crown door, its pretty puffed up.





 

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Discussion Starter #168
Yeah the drivetrain forum is over there>>>:drunk: Best of luck.

Man I am too bushed to boogie, that four foot piece punished me hard. Neck and shoulders.:pain: :pain: Uncle, Pugsy!

End of day, we are undecided whether to proceed but the parts order could wait a couple days. Beginning of today, I finished up those brackets between the side windows and was able to pin down my first set of 3D reference points rearward of the cowl precisely. That means the top front corners of the body lines on the quarters at the door jambs are exactly the same distance from center, floor, and dash.

Br'er 496David, heres a pic of the ole Tin Injun as she sits: :thumbup:



And now, tonight's feature presentation. I feel positive about a usable outcome on this learning exercise, but less so that time will allow further pursuit. In other words, I don't know if this will be used as scrap or a door skin. The issue with the wheel fought me as it would dig in unexpectedly. By 3 PM the fun was wearing off but knowing time was of the essence, I held and wheeled that sheet of metal while struggling with the tool nonstop for four more hours. At one point Big Mike reminded me about ol shrinky stretchy and we had a short go that helped on the front edge but not the top.

Toward the end of the day, I started getting the hang of tapering out the crown but along the way there were many mistakes. And there will be more, I hope. I'd like to finish it if rigor mortis doesn't set in. Kicking back and posting now to gather energy for bathing and eating. It was a steam bath day and I need to get a gallon of water in me and go to bed. Yeah, naw that would not work. But I am exhausted, dehydrated, achy, filthy, hungry, sleepy, and cranky so comment at your own risk, haha.

Pugsy and John, much obliged for the encouraging words, I feel at home on the range here. Thoughts welcome on progress. Oh... thats right you wanted pics and I wanted advice...zzzzzzz










 

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Discussion Starter #169


WOW!

Brian
Quoting this again, Brian... because I gotta say that Daffy's bill gags were possibly the best thing Warner Bros ever did. There is nothing they did not do to that duck's bill! But he deserved everything he got.:D

A cartoon sounds good, for winding down today.:) Whew.:sweat:
 

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Rod...from a Chrysler?
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I'd say that first piece should end up in the scrap pile. This is standard procedure on a first low crown attempt.. There are highs and lows all over it. You got a shrinking disc? Maybe try taking down some of the highs to get it under control. If it's going to be a door skin, cut it down so it's about 2" bigger all around to help get control over it.


Or, just chuck it. :sweat:
 
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Slow but willing learner
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I promise you. Your first attempt a a skin is every bot as good as my first one was.:thumbup:

From just looking at the pictures, I think you have wheeled to close to the edges of your panel. You need to leave an inch or so around the parameter so the panel is forced to grow up instead of out.

If you wheel the edges they will stretch much more easily than the center and you will loose control of your shape. That is why it is recommended to make your panel an inch or so larger than it needs to be. The border constrains the panels growth forcing it to take shape upward. Once you are done shaping the panel, trim the panel to shape getting rid of the border in the process.

Think of your panel as a pie crust. If you roll it everywhere, it will just get bigger but still be flat. If you just mash an area in the middle you are going to end up with a bubble or domed shape. It can only go up.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #172
Thanks. The metal will get used for something some day. I am trying not to form an opinion on whether or not to order skins, and fear that a second attempt is out of the question. Probably would not go much better. The only sad thing would be if this discourages boss man from taking fab jobs. I should try to fix the roller I guess, but the manual strongly advises that owners do not touch because theres so much injury potential and liability. The wheel HF currently sells is the same except the problem release lever arrangement appears to have changed. Chances are, it will just go back to gathering dust mostly. If I cut a skin sized piece, fixed the wheel and reran all Lazze's vids there might be a chance. It is wierd, guys at work often say the things I do are bad ***. I have to shake my head because its so relative. If I went to the shaping forum for help it would be a joke. Anywhere between joker and bad boy is fine for me and whatever path is chosen in this case, I'm in.:)
 

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Slow but willing learner
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Remember, you asked:D

One other thought. When you start a panel bend it so one curve is already in it. For example bend the panel so it curves and fits the door top to bottom. Then wheel the panel so the center grows upward. By keeping the vertical curve consistsnt and growing the panel the edges will settle down on the panel as the center grows up. As the panel gets close you can check for low spots and gently wheeling them up. When there are no more low spots your panel will fit.

Be cautious of creating high spots because they are very difficult to correct. With the exception of heat shrinking or a shrinking disc, the only way to correct a high spot is to raise everything that is not the high spot.....not easily done.

Hang in there. It is a fascinating machine and a great skill to learn. Just remember, You are starting out working on a low crown panel and they are the hardest, not the easiest.

Good luck with which ever way you go as far as,buying the panels or making them.

John
 

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Slow but willing learner
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Thanks. The metal will get used for something some day. I am trying not to form an opinion on whether or not to order skins, and fear that a second attempt is out of the question. Probably would not go much better. The only sad thing would be if this discourages boss man from taking fab jobs. I should try to fix the roller I guess, but the manual strongly advises that owners do not touch because theres so much injury potential and liability. The wheel HF currently sells is the same except the problem release lever arrangement appears to have changed. Chances are, it will just go back to gathering dust mostly. If I cut a skin sized piece, fixed the wheel and reran all Lazze's vids there might be a chance. It is wierd, guys at work often say the things I do are bad ***. I have to shake my head because its so relative. If I went to the shaping forum for help it would be a joke. Anywhere between joker and bad boy is fine for me and whatever path is chosen in this case, I'm in.:)
You posted this while I was typing my last post. I can really understand your frustration. It is hard to develope a skill on somebody else's nickel but it will come together for you if you get the oportunity to gain some experience. I hope we haven't sounded too negative. I don't mean it to be, I promise.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #175
I promise you. Your first attempt a a skin is every bot as good as my first one was.:thumbup:

From just looking at the pictures, I think you have wheeled to close to the edges of your panel. You need to leave an inch or so around the parameter so the panel is forced to grow up instead of out.

If you wheel the edges they will stretch much more easily than the center and you will loose control of your shape. That is why it is recommended to make your panel an inch or so larger than it needs to be. The border constrains the panels growth forcing it to take shape upward. Once you are done shaping the panel, trim the panel to shape getting rid of the border in the process.

Think of your panel as a pie crust. If you roll it everywhere, it will just get bigger but still be flat. If you just mash an area in the middle you are going to end up with a bubble or domed shape. It can only go up.

John
I do understand this. What I encountered was that after putting a slight crown longways, I went for crown vertically and could produce nothing. No matter what I tried, the top edge of the panel stayed dead flat. Darndest thing I ever seen. I began to get somewhere with that around quitting time, and thought that for a first try I was par. That is, on a four foot course where others would know better than to play. I did wheel off the edges to reduce excess crown, and you can see jaw marks on front and top. I'll stop short of calling today's work an exercise in futility but I pushed really hard mentally and physically and all thats likely to come of it is loss. An expensive lesson about what really truly actually great at fab technicians cost.

The back half of the panel might actually be a better candidate for the door skin than the front half. I did not wipe off that end and it looks lumpier due to hand prints and oil.
 

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Discussion Starter #176
You posted this while I was typing my last post. I can really understand your frustration. It is hard to develope a skill on somebody else's nickel but it will come together for you if you get the oportunity to gain some experience. I hope we haven't sounded too negative. I don't mean it to be, I promise.

John
No worries, and I am still typing but will quit. If you guys weren't frank with me I would not trust you like I do. We are all men here, my moods just show more because I spew more sentences.:rolleyes: And interesting content in a steady stream.:cool:

I do plan to tell Gary that shapers say toss it and that thats normal. He was awful cool just to give it this go if you ask me.:thumbup:
 

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Slow but willing learner
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I do understand this. What I encountered was that after putting a slight crown longways, I went for crown vertically and could produce nothing. No matter what I tried, the top edge of the panel stayed dead flat. Darndest thing I ever seen. I began to get somewhere with that around quitting time, and thought that for a first try I was par. That is, on a four foot course where others would know better than to play. I did wheel off the edges to reduce excess crown, and you can see jaw marks on front and top. I'll stop short of calling today's work an exercise in futility but I pushed really hard mentally and physically and all thats likely to come of it is loss. An expensive lesson about what really truly actually great at fab technicians cost.

The back half of the panel might actually be a better candidate for the door skin than the front half. I did not wipe off that end and it looks lumpier due to hand prints and oil.
My first skin was for a 50 Ford rag top. I ran into pretty much the same issues you have. I finally cut the panel in half, layed the two halves together getting rid of the accessive crown and scribed a line on one. I trimmed them to fit, butt welded them together and ended up with a door skin with a seam right down the middle.

Crude for sure but it worked. I had an advantage on you though. I was my own customer. No one to complain to. :D:D:D
 

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Rod...from a Chrysler?
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Being on the clock is no way to learn. You should be practicing on your lunch and coffee breaks, ha....


This is what I did to learn welding when I was a wee bit younger....OK, a lotta bit younger.
 
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Discussion Starter #179
Remember, you asked:D

One other thought. When you start a panel bend it so one curve is already in it. For example bend the panel so it curves and fits the door top to bottom. Then wheel the panel so the center grows upward. By keeping the vertical curve consistsnt and growing the panel the edges will settle down on the panel as the center grows up. As the panel gets close you can check for low spots and gently wheeling them up. When there are no more low spots your panel will fit.

Be cautious of creating high spots because they are very difficult to correct. With the exception of heat shrinking or a shrinking disc, the only way to correct a high spot is to raise everything that is not the high spot.....not easily done.

Hang in there. It is a fascinating machine and a great skill to learn. Just remember, You are starting out working on a low crown panel and they are the hardest, not the easiest.

Good luck with which ever way you go as far as,buying the panels or making them.

John
Would the shorter bend always be the place to start? I am aware of each thng you just mentioned and thanks. I did start with one bend, sounds like it was the wrong one per your example. Trouble I ran into was after I did that, I went to make the second and all that happened is the first bend curled up tighter and the panel became impervious to my efforts. Thought I was going nuts, the top four foot edge went flat and stayed that way despite hours trying to put a curve there, when putting a curve there was the first thing I did. Its been fun but the discussion is probably moot since tha was probably the last time anybody will get to try making a big flat panel. I gave it hell.
 

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Discussion Starter #180
Being on the clock is no way to learn. You should be practicing on your lunch and coffee breaks, ha....


This is what I did to learn welding when I was a wee bit younger....OK, a lotta bit younger.
Theres not a way I can get in there to practice on my own time, this was it.

We don't have breaks or vacation, and I usually work until the person locking up has been waiting on me to leave for a few minutes. To learn welding, I was given a LeSabre with the uniside replaced, to do the plug welds on it. About a hundred face the floor due to the rocker design. Nobody told me the welder was out of gas. That was horrible and I was over 30 already. I was probably 11 or 12 when Dad put a stick welder in my hand and let me spark it in his riding lawn mower build. He was much cooler much younger.

I don't believe studying fab and shaping intently will raise my pay so why bother? I won't get to fix up another car in my life either so whats the point? I had this side panel idea, sounded OK to us. Tried, failed first try, done. Next please. I'll muddle through like always whether I master the wheel or not.
 
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