[DjTy]

n00b going to do a break in... [Update!]

[Update, break in seemed to have gone ok see last post.]

Hey guys, I'm pretty new to engines, and where I live I couldn't find lots of stuff like the zinc additive and such.

this is the second time this engine is going to be started as the first my mechanic did a misinstall of the rearmost cambearing and oilpressure wouldn't even touch 20psi, but after a lengthy reswap that's fine now. (up to 60psi oil)


Anyway, we did the first few short test runs (not idle but higher at 1800) today on the engine (with the good oil pressure after priming) and came across a few issues, probably familiar to most of you guys.

1: engine seems to run HOT after a minute or 2-3. 50/50 coolant/water and fanshroud on, but is in the garage. The new Tempsensor on the passengerside head with the old temp-cable but doesn't seem to friggin work... fuse maybe?? (someone mentioned grounding which I will be checking)

2: how much advance? running an MSD street fire. connected vacuum on the holley's 670 street avenger's provision for it, but I have no clue on how to adjust vacuum/mechanical advance...

currently it's running at exactly 0* @ 1200rpm now with timing light & plugcable #1.

btw, could this be the cause of the heat maybe?

to breakin:
3: running on fresh 10-30w SEA motor oil, good idea to breakin?

should I drive it breakin? I think it might be a better option then break-in in the stil-air garage if thinking of heat.


anyway, it runs pretty well and started the first time in 3 sec. all other times it starts up pretty fast, but after it got a bit hot on the end of the day a total 10 minute run over 2 hours it kept on dieseling a bit after turning of the switch for a couple of seconds...

Monday I'll continue and hope to do the breakin after figuring out how to connect the throttle linkage to the street avenger (anyone with a street avenger here?).


I'm running on regular which is 92 octane around here (refinery on the island)

Iron heads, 355ci, flat top pistons, 1.8"/1.6" valves, federal mogul speedpro 3000 cam with 222* at .050. 447lift. edelbrock eps.

any tips, hints and suggestions with the points menioned above?

 

[Frisco]

1: engine seems to run HOT after a minute or 2-3.

currently it's running at exactly 0* @ 1200rpm now with timing light & plugcable #1.

btw, could this be the cause of the heat maybe?

Your timing is retarded and this will cause the engine to run hot in that short a period of time.

You need to increase the timing.

You should have around 10-12 degrees BTDC at idle (600-750 RPM). Set the timing with the vacuum advance dis-connected and plugged. Re-connect after the timing has been set.

 

[DjTy]

tnx frisco, I'll probably put it to 12* (more advanced runs cooler right?)

also 10-30w sae oil is ok I hope?

other things I've heard is doing the breakin with hosing the radiator and putting a standing fan in front of the car...

also the breakin has to be 2000rpm for 20 minutes? no stopping?

 

[66GMC]

2 things...

We've had a couple of conversations here recently regarding break-in oils and flat-tappet cams ... and most multi-grade passenger car oils no longer have the zinc additive package that is crucial for breaking these cams in.

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/new-cam-break-info-104086.html

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/break-oil-104512.html

I just read a tip (in ericbr's project journal) that you should do your break-in using water only ... no anti-freeze/coolant.

The tech guy also gave me an insider’s tip on reducing the chances of leaks through the bolts in the water jacket. “Use only water for the cooling system on the initial startup of the engine” was his suggestion. The explanation that he gave was that antifreeze might slip by the thread sealer if it hasn't fully cured. The thread sealer does not fully cure until it has been through one heat cycle. Once cured, thread sealer is impervious to the coolant. My call was definitely worthwhile for this little nugget.

Another supporting comment (from a technician friend of mine) was that using water was a good idea because it would "rinse out" any left-over chemicals from the hot-tanking of the block and heads.

Don

 

[Frisco]

tnx frisco, I'll probably put it to 12* (more advanced runs cooler right?)

also 10-30w sae oil is ok I hope?

other things I've heard is doing the breakin with hosing the radiator and putting a standing fan in front of the car...

also the breakin has to be 2000rpm for 20 minutes? no stopping?

12 degree for the initial should be a good starting point.

I prefer to use straight 30w for the break-in. 10-30w should be OK though.

Hose in the radiator should not be necessary. May actually cause overheating because no pressure cap in place. Adding a standing fan may be required if you have a clutch type fan. This is because at the RPM used for break-in the clutch type fan may not be fully engaged and thus will not pull much air thru the radiator.

The break-in RPM should be varied some between 2000-2500 RPM.

As to "no stopping"...This would be preferable; however, due to the possibility of reasons to shut down ( overheating, coolant leaks, oil leaks, fuel leaks, other mechanical problems, etc.), the break-in may have to be interrupted to repair or fix any problems that come up. This is OK. Just correct the problem and re-start the break-in and run for the remaining time.

The purpose of the break-in is to seat the rings and allow the face of the flat tappet lifters to conform to the lobes on the cam. The break-in is not needed for roller cams. The idea of the higher RPM's used during the break-in is to assure that the cam lobes are sufficiently lubed (by splash) and this is why the engine should not be run at an idle during the break-in (no splash at idle).

After the break-in period is when the finalized timing, carb adjustments, etc. are performed.

During the break-in period, keep a constant watch on the oil pressure, water temperature and watch for excessive leaks of any kind. Shut down as you see fit if there is a problem. If you have a new automatic trans also installed, this is the time to fill it up. If it was dry initially (hopefully you already put 4 quarts in the trans and one in the converter before start-up) it will take around 6+ additional quarts of trans fluid to reach the full mark. Depends on the trans, whether you have a trans cooler, length of lines, etc.

 

[farna]

The Jeep strokers group on Yahoo has had a lot of discussion on break-in lately (a Jeep stroker is a 4.0L with longer stroke Jeep 258/4.2L crank and rods, makes 4.5L w/stock bore 4.0L block). The consensus is to use standard oil with a factory break-in additive. Most seem to use GM "EOS" additive, but Chrysler and Ford has similar break-in additives you can get from the dealer as well. Alternately, use a diesel rated oil like Rotella. Rotella has been recently reformulated also, so it doesn't have as much zinc as it used to. The reason is the zinc can coat O2 sensors and the insides of catalytic converters, obviously when the engine is worn and burning a little oil. Oil weight varies from 5-30 to straight 30, but no one is using anything heavier than 30 weight.

I haven't seen a zinc additive on the shelf either. I would think that some aftermarket company would start producing a "break-in" oil or additive. They might not want to due to liability issues though. Your new engine wipes a cam lobe in 3-5K miles and you used the recommended product, so bad mouth or try to sue the company... On the Jeep strokers group several people have had engines wipe a lobe or more (one usually goes first, and bad enough to be obvious, so the others aren't checked for amount of wear) in 3-5K miles. After a bit of research and talk, we're convinced it's not the cam makers, it's the oil. Once broke in they seem to be fine, no one's wiped one after 5K yet. We've come to the consensus that the break-in additive should be used for the first and maybe the second oil change -- first at 100-200 miles, second at 1000 miles. After that regular oil should be fine.

 

[DjTy]

tnx for the replies guys, took the thread on my laptop with me to the garage where I read through it.

here's the update:
today we broke-in the 355ci V8 Chevy smallblock engine. the oil was 10/30W SAE Valvoline which has a bit of zinc according to the oil faq (from 66gmc's links) while no zinc additive found on most places on the island nor at the gm-dealer....

Anyway, I put a big .26kW industrial fan 4 feet in front of the car blowing to the engine and after previously tuning it to 8*advance at 1600rpm and fixing a damn leaky transmission pipe I took off the vacuum advance and let it go at 2000rpm for 20some minuts. actually with a small rev (2500/3000) here and there and a few lower (1600rpm) minutes.

It didn't heat up much like the last time we ran it for a minute or so, but that could be due to us running 0*advance then and no fan.
a few drops of coolant on the manifold stayed throughout the breakin and the covers weren't to hot to touch. (still uneasy but not HOT like last time)


Still 2 things to do:

1: the temperature sensor (now without the sealing tape) still doesn't work.

When my dad grounded the cable to the engine it does move through the whole scale in the dash, but even when a ground cable from the negative battery pole was put directly to the sensor's copper/brass metal casing there was no reaction...

It's a brand new sensor... but maybe it's broken?


2: We still don't know how to tune the Holley Street Avenger down to 600-800rpm. lowest we can get is 1600rpm at idle. idle throttle screw is set to the lowest. (we haven't touched the "fast idle" screw yet, nor the mixture.)

Holley has all the provisions for vacuum connected. pcv to a valve cover, tranny's th350's vacuum, powerbrake & distributer advance connected. the Electric choke isn't connected yet either.

maybe it's always running on fast idle?

 

[xxllmm4]

Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment is an off the shelf Treatment for $5 it has Zinc and Moly, Both high pressure addatives perfect for breaking in new cams. You should be able to get it at most auto parts stores, use the whole container for break in and 1-2oz per quart at each oil change.


"There have been several new oil analysis of Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment. The latest I know of is from March 05 and was done by Butler Catapillar Labs in Bismark ND. FWIW Here are the results"

Moly 2324
Boron 1046
Calcium 1050
Magnesium 968
Phos. 1792
Zinc 1740

Jordon

 

[DjTy]

tnx xxllmm4, I'll keep an eye out for the synpower if it's ok to use in normal driving.

Anyone knows how to tame a holley? Could we have linked the pedal to the wrong hole?

 

[Frisco]

after previously tuning it to 8*advance at 1600rpm and fixing a damn leaky transmission pipe I took off the vacuum advance and let it go at 2000rpm for 20some minuts. actually with a small rev (2500/3000) here and there and a few lower (1600rpm) minutes.

1: the temperature sensor (now without the sealing tape) still doesn't work.

2: We still don't know how to tune the Holley Street Avenger down to 600-800rpm. lowest we can get is 1600rpm at idle. idle throttle screw is set to the lowest. (we haven't touched the "fast idle" screw yet, nor the mixture.)

the Electric choke isn't connected yet either.

maybe it's always running on fast idle?

Congrats. Sounds like your break-in run went fairly well.

I am curious about the timing you used as stated above. The way you wrote it sounds like you set the timing to 8 degrees with the vacuum advance connected and the engine running at 1600 RPM.

If this is correct then your timing will be way off. This is because at 1600 RPM the mechanical advance weights will have moved some and advanced the mechanical timing some and also because whether you have the vacuum advance connected to the ported port or the full manifold port, at a steady 1600 RPM the vacuum advance will also be pulling in some additional advance.

You will need to get your idle RPM down before setting the initial timing. Hook up the electric choke. If not then block the choke so that it fully open. It sounds like you are running on the fast idle cam of the carb linkage. Usually "blipping" the throttle will drop the linkage off the fast idle portion. When the carb was off the intake, if you had turned it upside down and looked at the position of the primary blades (with the linkage off the high idle cam) the idle slots in the primary side of the carb should have appeared as a small square opening. This would be the ideal starting point. Once the engine is running and at operating temp, the choke should be fully open, the linkage off the fast idle cam, the idle adjusted (in DRIVE if an automatic with the emergency brake fully on and someone with their foot on the brake as well) to 600-750 RPM. At this point set the timing (dis-connect the vacuum advance) to around 12 degrees. After setting the timing, re-connect the vacuum advance. If you are using the full manifold vacuum the RPM will increase and should be re-adjusted. You can do the same as above in PARK except the idle RPM will be around 800-900. The RPM should drop when going from Park to DRIVE. If you have a standard trans then set the timing and idle in NEUTRAL to 600-750 RPM. After the timing is set you can begin to adjust the air/idle screws. They need to be slowly turned in or out to achieve the highest vacuum. Hook a vacuum gauge to full manifold vacuum for this.

An easier (for me) method to get the timing very close when doing a break-in run is to dis-connect the vacuum advance hose and plug it off. Using timing tape or a timing light that has the set back feature or a harmonic balancer that is marked in degrees of advance, run the engine up to 2500 -3000 RPM. Now set the timing to 32-36 degrees of Total Mechanical Advance. This will yield the initial mechanical timing to around 12-16 degrees at idle. Final timing adjustments can be made after the carb has been adjusted. Re-connect the vacuum advance hose AFTER setting the timing.

NOTE:

All the timing info I am giving is for NON-COMPUTER controlled HEI distributor.

To check the sensor for the temp gauge for proper grounding you can use a continuity light going from the sending unit base to a known ground. If the light does not come on then you do not have a good ground. A volt/ohmmeter can also be used if you have one.

Also check to see that the carb linkage is not holding the throttle open some at idle. There should be some slack or freeplay in the linkage at idle.

Good luck and ENJOY!!!

 

[DjTy]

Frisco, tnx a lot for the writeup (which will go to the garage with me), now I'll have some guidelines for this afternoon.

I did disconnect the vacuum advance while setting the timing which was at around 8* at 1800rpm (so pure mechanical I guess)

Still have to find a wire which supplies 12V for the electric choke, and we didn't touch the mixture screws, nor the fast idle screw.

this is how we linked the throttle (both me and my dad couldn't find anything in the manual on how to hook a holley up):

I'll probably post tonight on how it went.

 

[Frisco]

Look at the picture below. It shows the linkage (throttle and trans kickdown) on a Holley Street Avenger on the engine in my old truck. The trans linkage is the lower cable.

In your picture the trans hookup is incorrect.

Below is a modified view of your pic showing where the throttle and trans cable should be located.

 

[Frisco]

Still have to find a wire which supplies 12V for the electric choke

Any wire that is contolled by the ignition switch to turn the power on/off will work.

 

[farna]

Two ways to check the temp sensor.
1) run a new temporary wire from the sensor to the dash gauge. If it works there's a wire problem.

2) The factory manuals usually have a resistance measurement for a few temps, including when the engine is cold. Use an ohm meter to check the sensor output cold first. The resistance should steadily go down (or up -- depends on gauge design) as the engine warms up. If it's out of spec, replace the sensor.

The sensor needs to match the gauge, not the year of the engine. There were some changes over the years. You could have the wrong sensor. If it's a factory gauge you need the sensor for the year of the car regardless of when the engine was built. Then mount that sensor in roughly the same position as the original would have been. You can use adapters, but make sure the adapters don't pull the sensor out of the coolant stream. That's a common problem. If the adapters raise the sensor very much the gauge will always read lower than it should.

 

[66GMC]

Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment is an off the shelf Treatment for $5 it has Zinc and Moly, Both high pressure addatives perfect for breaking in new cams. You should be able to get it at most auto parts stores, use the whole container for break in and 1-2oz per quart at each oil change.


"There have been several new oil analysis of Valvoline Synpower Oil Treatment. The latest I know of is from March 05 and was done by Butler Catapillar Labs in Bismark ND. FWIW Here are the results"

Moly 2324
Boron 1046
Calcium 1050
Magnesium 968
Phos. 1792
Zinc 1740

Jordon

Hi Jordon, This is the product?

It says that it is "compatible with all engine oils", which I assume to include conventional (non-synthetic) motor oils.

Sounds like something we should all stock up on.

 

[Frisco]

In your picture the trans hookup is incorrect.

Explanation of my statement concerning the picture you posted. :embarrass

The picture that you posted is from the Street Avenger installation instruction and is for FORD trans cable hookup.

For Chevy hookup see the picture that I modified or the photo I posted.

 

[xxllmm4]

66GMC, thats the stuff. One of the nice things about it is that its not over the top in any way, no Teflon, no made up additives, just good additives that they have decided to take out of oil.

I have also seen quite a few used oil analysis with people using just 1oz per quart and every one was excellent. With a flat tappet can you should probably use 2oz per quart but any more really isnt better, theirs a point where you can have too much moly and zinc.

Jordon

 

[DjTy]

guys, tnx for the advices, found synpower oil at Napa so I'll buy one to further "breakin" the engine.

I have a problem, after hot it won't crank over good at all, basically this is a newly bored & honed with new pistons, rings & cam, bearings etc.

I think my mechanic has the piston-wall clearances pretty tight. hence.. I think it heats up and when turned off it will not crank well until it's cooled down. (after idling at ~ 1800 in the garage for a couple of minutes with no industrial fan I need to let it down for 10 minutes and it can start again)

we first thought the starter was bad as it pulled the good & new battery down to 9 volts and still didn't crank it decently. putting a load tester on the battery pulled it only down to 11.4 volts!

I'm guessing I need to do the valve train tight (loosened it up 1/4 turn for each rocker to breakin), maybe put in the synpower additive y'all been talking about and do some hard pulls on the road after fitting up the tranny kickdown and finding an electrical 12v for the choke (any basic wire you think that's ideal for it?).

advance is put to about 8* at 1500 w/o vac tonight, idle screw all the way down but it STILL won't idle lower. (this may also be a cause for overheating)


Also we measured the sensor and a new one which didn't fit and indeed the current one is faulty/broken.

either way, drove around the block and it pulls up much better then the ol' 262ci.

any hints/tips on the suspected overheating? Go and break-in hard? add the 70-85W SEA SynPower? maybe new thermostat will help too?

 

[Frisco]

I have a problem, after hot it won't crank over good at all,

advance is put to about 8* at 1500 w/o vac tonight, idle screw all the way down but it STILL won't idle lower. (this may also be a cause for overheating)

any hints/tips on the suspected overheating?

maybe new thermostat will help too?

Your timing is still too retarded. Should be higher at 1500 RPM w/o vacuum. This will cause overheating!

Since you haven't been able to get the idle down yet; set the timing for "Total Mechanical". To do this dis-connect the vacuum advance hose and plug it. Bring the RPM up to 2500 and set the ignition timing to 34-36 degrees. That should put you in the "ballpark" as to the ignition timing. Re-connect the vacuum advance hose after setting the timing.

The "after hot and it won't crank over good" could be because it is hot from running the ignition retarded. It could also be "heat soak" to the starter solenoid. How close is the tailpipe to the starter solenoid? A heat shield could help here. A remote (Ford) starter solenoid will work also. A smaller gear reduction starter will also help.

In my opinion, you should be using a good 180 degree thermostat.

 

[DjTy]

Hey all,

well today I put the timing a bit more advanced, it's now at 12* for 1000rpm. my timing scale above the harmonic damper goes until 16* before and 8 degrees after. for some reason the carb now got it to idle at 800-900 rpm and I didn't hear any popping, either way I temporary hooked the tranny kickdown with a tyrep and at last I hooked up the 12V for the electrical choke to a ign. wire under the dash.

still a new temperature sensor which does have a working resistance still doesn't work in this car, and apparently napa's one that "should" work is 50bucks!! not sure but may it be that only certain sensors work due to the gauge?



either way, I removed the thermostat which was working as it closed down in the open air, and let the car without it to check. water is circulating heavily in the rad (due to my new high flow corvette 84 shorty pump of aluminum.) but the engine still got hot.

it actually stalled / seized with me on the road after just a couple of minutes driving... (I did run it previously for a longer time outside to test if it'd take me home today)

I really think the clearances that my trusty mechanic left for piston to cylinderwall are too tight for free turning the crank etc, especially when hot. (I'm running federal mogul hypereutectic pistons)


also the harmonic balancer is just a little vibrating but very little.

what must I do to get this thing to be reliable u guys think?


edit: sorry almost forgot, I have a home made custom heatshield installed out of a thin polished piece of sheetmetal between the starter and the driverside collector flange. but as the engine runs really hot by itself I doubt that it's from the exhaust. my previous starter would completely be inoperative when too hot, but this one still cranks but with more dificulty as I thing the engine clearances are much tighter due to friction and thermal expansion.

I think maybe a thicker oil? or teflon based additives (like that Valvoline Synpower?) and doing some hard passes with the car?