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I really have nothing against Electric powered cars, lots of Instantaneous Torque lots of HP in a Small package.

I do have a Problem with the power sources available though! just trading one polluter for another.

Battery's don't last, New Batteries are made from exotic metals, Mining those metals and refining them is toxic, when those Batteries life is done they go to land fills again very toxic. Then their is there power to charge them Coal fired electric plants Natural gas fired electric plants and of course the Nuke Plants like we need another Chernobyl or Fukushima its not just the international country that have had Nuke plant mishaps the USA has also had there own.

Hydrogen shows promise but has yet to be made widely available and probably never will be because of its Volatility.
Fuel cell tech is cute but it lacks the production capabilities needed and is so ridiculously expensive its not funny due to its use of exotic metals.

Cold Fusion is still just a dream

The Green new deal is a Pipe dream! Get ready for some really stupid laws to get passed the next 4 years Socialism is here.
 

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The wealthy in a global economy profit more than in an isolationist country .Its call about the Money , who profits & who looses .
 

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Your orgional question. Yes ethanol and algea ethanol/alcohol will increase. But it is replaced with other additives that mimic what it is replacing.

Leaded fuel valve seats are a thing of the past. Some items that are not complient with higher levels of ethanol will need to make the same transition. Most of these are maintace items such as fuel lines, etc.

The thing about ethanol is if you keep it fresh and moving the ill effects can be reduced.

Alcohol and ethanol are nothing new to hotrodding. A old car can make the transition using proven methods no manner the year. Now not all engines are created equal. Some forms of atomization are better then others making a diffrent engine choice a "better" possibility. A modern equivlant is a lower compression, splash oil, flathead engine. You just do not see them being used as much because it is easier to run the better common v8 then the flathead. But that won't stop the car itself or people from running flatheads moving that car down the road leagly.
I mean wooden spoke rims are still ran on roads. There is a "drive in" only event in Charlton Park Michigan and wooden rims are still ran. You can catch these cars running 10, 20, 40 miles away to this event.

If someone wants to run something they are going to run it. It might not be as easy to run them. But they will be ran.
 

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I had a 91 pontiac sunfire in 97 that was one of my earlier "build it for fun" builds.

I was given(removed it from property) a 36 volt golf cart and adapted the motor to the manual transmission.
Replaced the batteries with new wet ones and it moved.
But as you can imagine it was slow and the range was only around 15 miles on flat ground with a top speed around 35mph(downhill).
To extend the range I found a small honda "hobby" generatior around 200lbs about the size of a cooler and stuffed the thing into the trunk. Then ran the charger off the generator.

When parked I would fire up the generatior and once the batteries were charged it would shut off.

Far from perfect. But that thing would do one heck of a smoke show leaving a light.

For a "city" car it worked. I never figured out the mileage because I plugged it in most of the time. But having the generatior allowed me to kick around town having the thing charge while in a store or theater.

Now in 2018 I was working 2 miles from my house then 8 miles. I would spend 10-15 minutes running the engine regardless because after the 3rd or 4th day the draw during starting and limited recovery time would kill the battery as well as oil condensation.
If I still had that city car running it would have made sense to run it for those short distances.
 

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I believe your question was answered. No one here said they were ready to convert from gas to booze. Yes, many an opinion was given for the reason the question was asked, but again the tone of the thread is pretty consistent, "NOT GIVING UP GAS"!

Us old guys might recall the early 70s when the very same "experts" ( I use that term loosely ) predicted we were going to go into a new ice age and then it was acid rain. As the famed Solinsky said "never let the chance for a crisis to go by" or words to that effect.
 

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We will have fossil fuel as long as politicians have limousines and private jets. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that we, the unwashed masses, will be allowed to use that fuel.

It's sorta like Al Gore telling us the earth would reach a "point of no return" by 2016, while his home in Tennessee used 10-21 times the energy of an average home (depending on what source you believe). "Do as we say, not as we do" should be a slogan of the political class.
 

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We , the unwashed masses , will simply be " priced out" of the market .. Just like guns , don't ban the guns , make ammunition overpriced/ unavailable ..
 

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Frankly I’m surprised that electric vehicle propulsion isn’t more common at this point. I figured 20 years ago that fuel powered vehicles would be in a minority by this point. Like it or not you can’t keep adding consumption on one end and not expect problems on the other. The real failure is the fossil fuel companies not coming to grips with seeing their future as total spectrum energy companies and moving their business in that direction instead of drawing a line in the sand and declaring we’re gonna burn fuel or fight. That’s about as dumb as starting a horse harness business in 1910. Hoover case in point, they got out of the horse harness business and started making vacuum cleaners. Like it or not the times move on driven by the evolving technology changes which are really driven by population growth. We moved out of caves into built hovels when the population was too great for the supply of caves. We moved from hunter/gatherer societies to farming when our population could no longer be supported by the natural animal and tuber supply. We probably moved from wearing animal skins to weaving clothes about the same time.

Things move on and every time they do you have the group that wants to move forward and the group that doesn’t. When the ‘doesn’t‘ group prevails eventually when history and technology move forward again we look back and call those “dark ages” and wonder how people could have been so foolish.

So here we are at another inflection point with our future hanging in the balance. This is not to say that all change is good, my greatest fear is that “Artificial Intelligence“ will be man‘s last invention.


Bogie
 

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It's sorta like Al Gore telling us the earth would reach a "point of no return" by 2016, while his home in Tennessee used 10-21 times the energy of an average home (depending on what source you believe).
I once heard someone say that even the sidewalks were heated at one or more of his mansions...
 

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One major issue that you guys are forgetting (or do not know about in the US) is that most of those "clean air" talks have nothing to do with clean air, actually. The environmental movement have been much more active, and for longer in europe than in north America. There is a small but surprisingly powerful group of hardcore so-called "environmentalists" who really want the end of our way of life the way we know, the end of capitalism, trade, travel, private property... Cars are their worst ennemy and some of their publications are calling for the end of the privately owned car! We called them here in France "water melon environmentalists", green on the outside but red (i.e. communists) on the inside. I still do not know how these people are getting so much traction, but I guess that when you tell the general population that we have to protect the environment (which is true), no one can disagree and people are ready to accept a lot...
As for getting rid of gas powered cars, it is easy: most cities in europe have made cars over 5 to 10 years old (depends on the cities) illegal to drive. You can own one, but can only drive at night, or week ends, or not at all... And then the sale of new gas powered cars will stop in 15-20 years, and done, no more cars!
To add something about the text that Staleg has linked (excellent text, full of simple logic, but logic does apply anymore to this topic...), one solution to electrifying a country would be nuclear power (which also has its problems), but, oh bummer, the environmentalists are against it too: these people are against everything!
As a side-note, I do realize that road trafic is not the worst polluter, and that there is right now no real alternative to fossil fuel.
 

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The elephant in the room is called the " International monetary fund" . They are the driving force behind a cash free society , this would make everyone subject to their whims . Its a not so subtle attempt to " redistribute" wealth making mankind basically , IMF pack mules , their sole reason for existing being to provide to the " community" ..Communal , socialised existence , at its best !!
 

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Ok power generation, then the factories, then the livestock, then the cars. In that order.

Lets start with power generation. Coal is bad. It is no secret. But nucular is easy to mess up when it is poorly planned or stupid mistakes happen plus the waste storage. Then we get scared and go to the old school coal.
Thats why I love supercritical CO2. You take liquid CO2 heat it up and it builds pressure. You run that pressure through your former (slightly retrofitted) nucular produced steam turbine(s)and it produces safe power without the waste. You have a leak no "big" deal. You can even take it further and heat it with solar engery cooling it with a river and further reduce the cost.
Stuff is currently happening and while I won't claim a environmentalists title. It is nice to know if things do go boom thats the end of it.

Next up is factories. Some of the old timers around automotive or chemical factories will know the term fallout. Basically chemicals creating a layer on things. If not dumped into streams etc.
DDT and other pesticides sprayed onto everything was a bit before my day. But a factory spending money on environmental aspects is only currently controlled by fines (that can be reduced) or threats(that can be overturned). It is better controlled by code and law. But still happens on a percentage scale.
Even when all the laws are in order accidents happen and often are not completely factored for to contain the resulting environmental impact.

Livestock poop, it needs to go somewhere. I have poured poop pits and poop ponds. We are not talking 50 cows we are talking 500+ on one farm. The pits fill up fast. The gasses released affect the tropospheric area. Google it.

Then we get to cars. Now the ICE engine is a inefficient design from the start. Unburnt fuel vapor is going to happen. A converter does a great job of burning this fuel. But that thing has a tough life and cant stop everything. So we burn fuel more effectively, stop fuel from escaping, and burn the fuel a second time. Then you add to that us shutting off or reducing the size of the has engine and we are here today.

If someone wants to blame your car for the warmer temperatures just remind them about the nucular option. You know all those thermonuclear test that were done. I am sure none of those cherry bombs did a thing to the atmosphere.

Air pollution and rising temps are not a concern to me. The only thing that is a concern is fresh water.

I basically live on a lake with a very low chance of outside contamination. My shallow well is at 40 feet. But other areas are not so lucky.

Water is going to become the new oil here in lets say 30 years. Some states already are fighting. There aee certain areas that require water to be transported in. Freshwater treatment for the amount of mouths is simply not a expence they are willing to pay.

So they truck it in.

Those trucks will lead the progression of reduced fuel use and battery technology. But, gasoline will always be around to cut cost and extend range.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Did the green agenda gather votes ? Will anything other than lip service come out of it ,? Does the fact that there is at least 200 plus years of fossil fuel mean that we will give it up ? Yes , No , No ....:rolleyes:
Actually the New Green Deal is just the old UN Agenda 21 revamped with a new cool name for the young "progressives" .
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Ok power generation, then the factories, then the livestock, then the cars. In that order.

Lets start with power generation. Coal is bad. It is no secret. But nucular is easy to mess up when it is poorly planned or stupid mistakes happen plus the waste storage. Then we get scared and go to the old school coal.
Thats why I love supercritical CO2. You take liquid CO2 heat it up and it builds pressure. You run that pressure through your former (slightly retrofitted) nucular produced steam turbine(s)and it produces safe power without the waste. You have a leak no "big" deal. You can even take it further and heat it with solar engery cooling it with a river and further reduce the cost.
Stuff is currently happening and while I won't claim a environmentalists title. It is nice to know if things do go boom thats the end of it.

Next up is factories. Some of the old timers around automotive or chemical factories will know the term fallout. Basically chemicals creating a layer on things. If not dumped into streams etc.
DDT and other pesticides sprayed onto everything was a bit before my day. But a factory spending money on environmental aspects is only currently controlled by fines (that can be reduced) or threats(that can be overturned). It is better controlled by code and law. But still happens on a percentage scale.
Even when all the laws are in order accidents happen and often are not completely factored for to contain the resulting environmental impact.

Livestock poop, it needs to go somewhere. I have poured poop pits and poop ponds. We are not talking 50 cows we are talking 500+ on one farm. The pits fill up fast. The gasses released affect the tropospheric area. Google it.

Then we get to cars. Now the ICE engine is a inefficient design from the start. Unburnt fuel vapor is going to happen. A converter does a great job of burning this fuel. But that thing has a tough life and cant stop everything. So we burn fuel more effectively, stop fuel from escaping, and burn the fuel a second time. Then you add to that us shutting off or reducing the size of the has engine and we are here today.

If someone wants to blame your car for the warmer temperatures just remind them about the nucular option. You know all those thermonuclear test that were done. I am sure none of those cherry bombs did a thing to the atmosphere.

Air pollution and rising temps are not a concern to me. The only thing that is a concern is fresh water.

I basically live on a lake with a very low chance of outside contamination. My shallow well is at 40 feet. But other areas are not so lucky.

Water is going to become the new oil here in lets say 30 years. Some states already are fighting. There aee certain areas that require water to be transported in. Freshwater treatment for the amount of mouths is simply not a expence they are willing to pay.

So they truck it in.

Those trucks will lead the progression of reduced fuel use and battery technology. But, gasoline will always be around to cut cost and extend range.
I am into diet and nutrition. I believe that some of the reason they are talking getting rid of cow meat is because it has a lot of cholesterol in it. You see Animal Cholesterol is a precursor to your hormone production. Look up Vegan and how it effects mens testosterone. Reduce Test and you make men weak and passive less ability to father children. Sounds far fetched but why are so many men going on TRT?

Water.. Well when you allow your border to be over run you have to provide infrastructure to handle it. To many mouths "Watering" down the supply?
 

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Meh, The I.C.E. isn't going anywhere. The materials to make the batteries isn't abundant enough to have 1/5 of the worlds fleet electric.
What will change, is The i.c.e. engines. Today with what they can ring out of a small 4 banger. The large liter engines will fade away. What does a 4 banger mustang have 310 h/p.
I think many vehicles will get under 2 liter 4 bangers and the upscale models, small under 2 liter v6.
I think the large liter v8 is on the way out. in other than the top dog performance trim/model.
batterY POWERED ELECTRICS will not put to death the I.C.E.
Even if they rebuild the electric grid to handle that type of load. The plants are not powered by unicorn farts. And the same greenies fight tooth and nail about pipelines needed for n/g plants and nuke power is a "heck no"
I see electrics, being just another option, just like propane, gas,diesel.
Only way we go all electric and that is assuming they work out the grid/power plant issues. It if they put street car cables up that your vehicle got power from.
Greenies are barking up the wrong trees, cargo ships put more crap in the air, than the personal transportation fleet.
Between the waste from shipping things across the globe, and shipping fuel across the globe (wtf is up with that anyways). And the throw away culture. This is a bigger gross polluter .
I would be totally fine with a daily driver with a 0.75-1 liter engine as long as they keep their hands off the motorsports, and vehicle hobby, performance industry and vehicle models.
I do think the factories are making their own death bed as far as claiming they can't meet higher cafe and such.
While selling monsters with 400-800 hp. and basic suv's or crossovers with 250hp and up. I think this is going to come back to haunt them. They all, not just ford/gm/mopar have been for the last decade, giving the middle finger to the epa and feds while always claiming they could never meet any tuffer regulations. At some point they (powers that be)are going to call b/s.
They might not be able to ban hp and engine size, but they can tax fuel so high that it force many to rethink if they need that 240+hp v6 camry , or can get by with the 4 banger econobox.
The oems are already playing around with small v6 and 4 bangers in full sized trucks. They laugh at them now, but if fuel went to 4 bucks + like it did not that long ago. The once laughed at idea of a 4 banger in a full sized truck, might be the units that move.
 

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Yeah, the f-ing "geniuses" in charge here in Commiefornia are spouting crap about being "100% renewable" blah blah, but they can't even supply enough energy to keep the lights on in some areas.
Then, since they've mismanaged the forests/brush areas and utilities so badly for so long, they've been shutting off power to millions of people so that the power equipment doesn't start fires...
So if you need to go somewhere during fire season, good luck with that.
Maybe they should rake the underbrush from the forest floor?
 

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Meh, The I.C.E. isn't going anywhere. The materials to make the batteries isn't abundant enough to have 1/5 of the worlds fleet electric.
What will change, is The i.c.e. engines. Today with what they can ring out of a small 4 banger. The large liter engines will fade away. What does a 4 banger mustang have 310 h/p.
I think many vehicles will get under 2 liter 4 bangers and the upscale models, small under 2 liter v6.
I think the large liter v8 is on the way out. in other than the top dog performance trim/model.
batterY POWERED ELECTRICS will not put to death the I.C.E.
Even if they rebuild the electric grid to handle that type of load. The plants are not powered by unicorn farts. And the same greenies fight tooth and nail about pipelines needed for n/g plants and nuke power is a "heck no"
I see electrics, being just another option, just like propane, gas,diesel.
Only way we go all electric and that is assuming they work out the grid/power plant issues. It if they put street car cables up that your vehicle got power from.
Greenies are barking up the wrong trees, cargo ships put more crap in the air, than the personal transportation fleet.
Between the waste from shipping things across the globe, and shipping fuel across the globe (wtf is up with that anyways). And the throw away culture. This is a bigger gross polluter .
I would be totally fine with a daily driver with a 0.75-1 liter engine as long as they keep their hands off the motorsports, and vehicle hobby, performance industry and vehicle models.
I do think the factories are making their own death bed as far as claiming they can't meet higher cafe and such.
While selling monsters with 400-800 hp. and basic suv's or crossovers with 250hp and up. I think this is going to come back to haunt them. They all, not just ford/gm/mopar have been for the last decade, giving the middle finger to the epa and feds while always claiming they could never meet any tuffer regulations. At some point they (powers that be)are going to call b/s.
They might not be able to ban hp and engine size, but they can tax fuel so high that it force many to rethink if they need that 240+hp v6 camry , or can get by with the 4 banger econobox.
The oems are already playing around with small v6 and 4 bangers in full sized trucks. They laugh at them now, but if fuel went to 4 bucks + like it did not that long ago. The once laughed at idea of a 4 banger in a full sized truck, might be the units that move.
Did you know that, although Lithium is called a rare earth mineral, it is found and is recoverable from, seawater, used up oil wells, and is likely the most plentiful mineral on the planet?
Also battery technology is advancing at an amazing rate. there are some newer batteries that use even more common materials such as sodium that will hold an higher charge than LI ON.
 

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I'm a leftist, but instead of disagreeing with the ridiculous parts of this thread, I'll simply say.... yes, I'm cool with ethanol.
Unfortunately, as of about 2004, if we took every single horticultural crop, agricultural waste... pretty much anything that we grow, and turned it into ethanol, it wouldn't even support 1/4 of our world energy consumption, not to mention the complete lack of food to eat. Source: Biofuels/Stoetaert
 

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Did you know that, although Lithium is called a rare earth mineral, it is found and is recoverable from, seawater, used up oil wells, and is likely the most plentiful mineral on the planet?
Also battery technology is advancing at an amazing rate. there are some newer batteries that use even more common materials such as sodium that will hold an higher charge than LI ON.
Yes I did, good luck getting the greenies to allow you to harvest it from the sea/oceans. They stop hydro power. because, "reasons"
We need to stop thinking of one savor , and have multi fuels/power types, and build them to be as clean as can be.
Most peoples daily's don't need a 250+ hp v6 in that crossover or small/mid sized suv or sedan. to put around town with. or get up to 75mph. a 1 liter turbo will do it for most owners that see a vehicle as nothing more than a tool to get from point A to B. We are told over and over that most of the motoring public are not into cars, Yet watch any ad for any make/model they make sure you know it has 181 hp. not 180, but 181. So the bs that the general public isn't into cars and hp is utter crapola.
I am a live long petrohead. But I see or would like to see the future as this.
The dailys, small c.i.d. turbo fuel sippers. And the performance vehicles come back to earth. In their almighty drive for the highest hp , they have out priced the buyer pool. A v8 mustang START AT 42k, a camaro about the same, a charger or challanger r/t with 5.7 v8 is 44k the 6.4v8 is 48k and up. Then they wonder why they don't sell.
I am not buying a vehicle at mid 40's and not getting the color I want, the interior and options. The trend of all black interiors needs to die.
Heck even a turbo 4 banger mustang the way I would want it is pushing 39k . And dealers are not stocking much, so unless I want to settle for a bland color gray or black v8 car.
Dodge has as does ford a sharp looking two tone red and black interior and nice mid red metalic paint. you think I can find any on a lot, nope.
Camaro, nope, can find tons of black or battle ship gray, charcoal, heck even the mazda mx5 rf the interior choices are all black, or black and white. leather . a drop top with black leather, shorts and a tee shirt would be fun, not...
Even worst is they have headed seat , the camaro heated steering wheel. No one is driving these in the snow ,winter.
At least the mustang comes with heated and cooled seating IF you get the top trim level.
Getting way off topic, with this rant. lol
But I would be fine with a 310 hp 4 banger mustang , I don't need 430-500+hp that I never get to hook on the street,
I rather a v8. And why I think the oems should be moving to a 2 -2.5 liter v8 .
6.2 liter and 6.4 hemi's all fine and well, but they are not the future.
Build a ls/lt 2.5ltr v8 reverce the valve layout, so the intake ports are where the exhaust is now, and exhaust is in the valley, making turbo packaging a breeze. .
 
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