Hot Rod Forum banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello guys I have a few questions when it comes to balancing a rotating assembly. I understand the basics of what they do to get a certain bobble weight for the total assembly as they use the weight of everything added up and take off the crankshaft and stuff to balance things out.

Now I have a few questions and a year ago I was looking at getting a dart shp block done by him and also a rotating assembly done by Carl Hinkson CNC blocks Northeast. I was going to have him ship me the stuff by freight and I was limited on what my options were. I wanted to get a standard bore dart shp block along with a scat forged crankshaft and a set of forged DSS pistons 4.00 size. He said he recommended a better set of Mahle pistons that were .030 over size and I did not want my block overbore and he also recommended a certain name brand crankshaft that was forged and he said it was better then the scat but I said I preferred the scat crank. He was fine with me and the scat connecting rods I wanted.

He told me the crank was made by the same company who made the Eagle crankshafts but was not an Eagle brand and I told him I once had an Eagle crank and it had a lot of issues and I sold it before using it a it was all out of spec and I said my current build has a scat crank and it was spot on out of the box. He stated his crank he recommended was better finish etc.

I told him I did not want that rotating assembly deal and did not feel comfortable with a brand name made by Eagle and that was just my feeling but I meant nothing against him but he took it so personally that he said he would not do business with me because of that and that I questioned his abilities and offended his intelligence which I was never trying to do and just wanted what I was wanting to do for my build but he would not except what I wanted and only excepted what he wanted to do.

Anyways with all that out of the way when I talked to him I discussed that I had in my current build a set of 5.7 Scat H beam rods with a scat forged 3.480 crankshaft and Icon forged 4032 pistons and I told him that when it was balanced that they grinded some material on the bottom of the connecting rods which was very little but you could tell where they sanded some material off and he said he never has to do that and that them doing that damages the rods and affects the heat treatment and how much truth is there to that?

I am planning on hopefully if funds allow me to get my Dart shp block 4.0 bore with my scat 3.480 forged crank and the scat pro comp I beam rods 7/16 bolts this time instead of the H beam rods with a set of DSS 4320 aluminum forged pistons balanced at the machine shop who did my last build and have them do the machine work to my block with they use the torque plate hone and I am having all the works done.

My question is mainly on the balancing part. Was Carl right or was he just full of it or am I missing something here and will it hurt my connecting rods? On my previous 350 5 years back I had the current machine shop I use I had a milder build with just a set of scat 3/8 capscrew pressed connecting rods which are the step up from the through bolt design but not a floating type rod and I used a cast scat crank and a set of hyper pistons and nothing else fancy. They did not grind anything from the bottom of the rods on that one build.

From what I know the H beam rods are way heavier then the I beam rods and thus I am thinking that is why they sanded some from the bottoms. Can anybody who knows more about this fill me in on this and do I have anything to be worried about. This machine shop builds racing engines and in case anybody wants to know who they are they are called Watson Rupel racing performance in Sarahsville Ohio and they have done some awesome work on many of my stuff and also stuff my Father has worked and built for others over the years.

Thanks guys and sorry for the whole post but I just wanted to get the whole story out there as to why I question things as to what he told me and I am not overly educated on this subject.

Thanks guys and thanks for any help and information to help educate me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
Sanding the rod doesn't hurt the integrity of the rod.
It's rare to need to touch the better rods or Pistons they are so close to correct weight right out of the box.
 

·
More for Less Racer
Joined
·
19,733 Posts
Heavy grinding to try to match weight a heavy H-beam to a lighter I-beam rod is not advised and can weaken the rod, but as Imsport posted a light touch-up to final match just a couple of grams doesn't hurt as long as done with care in the correct areas.

CNC Blocks is a known internet A-hole, he turns off as many people as he gains as customers with his ego....I've heard mention he is not like that in person so ???
I don't blame you for gong to someone else.

If your new rods come as a matched set they should not need any or very minimmal touch-up for balance reasons.

Just for grins....what was the "american company" offering cranks made by the same source who provides for Eagle?? Eagle is 100% offshore sourced.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,614 Posts
15 years ago or so Eagle reject cranks were being sold on ebay.
A customer brought me one for a BBC that had fillets on the main journals that were so large that I had to machine the bearings to get them to work. Giant headache to save a few dollars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
I used to be friends on FB with carl until I picked his torque monster sbc apart. He got almost violent,lol. He built a 421 that had more torque than hp using 195cc AFR heads. He is a machinist not an engine builder. I heard generally speaking his work is very good.
Please explain to me why you want a standard bore SHP for the very mild builds you make?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,038 Posts
Just for giggles...
I recently purchased a standard bore Dart SHP block from Skip White.
4in stroke comes out to 427 cubic inches.
I took the whole shooting match to my machine shop, and they only had to split a few bearings to get it within perfect specs!
If you are wanting a Dart Block, I would suggest you go with Skip White...
No muss, no fuss, No lip!

And also a random side note, Chris Straub has a couple of awesome top end choices that are ready to roll!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Why would I want to buy a new block and have to have it already bore .030 over and take one build out of it? That is my reason and also I like the shp blocks as they are way better then a factory GM block. Now please forgive me Moosecountry if I am misunderstanding your post and apologize ahead of time if I am taking it the wrong way.
My build won't be like tame like 300 horse mild but will still be over 400 plus hp and torque.

I am using everything from my 377 build minus the short block and reusing my top end and camshaft and the same parts from below such as the oil pump and same pan etc. Just going back to a 350 with a milder stall converter with my smaller cam that I had put in and my 377 is almost 10:1 and I am going down to about 9.3 to 1 CR and for other reasons that I can't post here as it would be a long story.

The pistons I originally got for my 377 was supposed to be a 4.125 bore size but getting the pistons for a 400 small block and the 5.565 connecting rod are not easy to come by unless you get way more expensive pistons and they are more easy in Hyper ones but forged ones there are not as many options and a 350 you can get a lot of more options or a 383 for that part. I am not going that route either as I don't need all that extra stuff either since I only cruise.

I already have a guy interested in my short block once I get things taken out and pulled apart and will be selling it to him and then having my Father put my other build together for me. I have all the stuff but my health unfortunately got really bad when I took a 3 foot drop off the stairs in my house and injured myself good enough to mess up my back and have some pinched nerves etc along with a major concussion which only added to my other health stuff.

He wanted me to get a crank made by a company called Liberty which he says is made from the same factory that makes the Eagle cranks but uses different machine specs and tolerances according to him. He was not a pleasant guy to deal with at the end. At first he talked to me on the phone and was real nice until I told him I did not want to use what he said he recommended as I told him this is not a race motor going at the track but just something nice to cruise in.

I am just going with a standard 4 inch bore since I already got all the parts just need to get the funds saved up and then get the machine work done and I am good to go. Have been saving for over a year now but several things came up which things on hold. My Scat rods are within one to two grams of each other along with my pistons being really close to a matched weight.

I noticed that when the machine shop sanded my H beam rods it was very little such at like a light grind but nothing major but you could tell by looking at them that they was grinded a bit more then what I would have thought and to me it seemed odd as my previous build with the I beam 3/8 scat capscrew rods did not have any sanding done on them.

I know the H beams weigh quite a bit more then the I beam scat pro comp rods with the 7/16 rod bolts which will make the rotating assembly lighter compared to my current build in my truck. I just want to keep this thing as long as I can and with all this government stuff going on I don't know what the future holds for the hot rodding industry as a whole and I just want to have something to last as long as I can enjoy it on this earth as I won't have another opportunity like this again.

My health is going down hill because of the cancer treatments I had to my head and neck back in 2012 and had a lot of radiation and chemotherapy done and suffered a lot of damage because of it as I was stage 4 nasopharyngeal cancer. My skills and memory are not as sharp as it used to be and I won't be doing things like this in the future so going for the last ride and making it a lot more tamer for what all I do and bring my compression down and for some other reasons.

Carl was good to me until I just sent him an email and said I would prefer the Scat crank since I have experience with it and liked it being spot on and etc etc and boy did I get a nasty email from him lol and he called me and got really hostile with me on the phone and said he would not do business with me and I am better off going elsewhere cause I did not want his rotating assembly he sells and the piston kit which was more then what I needed.

Sorry guys for any bad grammar as I have issues with memory and at times processing information and as time goes on my memory becomes worse and I have to keep trying to retrain my mind with stuff to remember things as damage from radiation to my brain has caused me a lot of setbacks over the years along with several near death seizures several years back and caused some loss of stuff.

Thanks guys for your help and much appreciated. Please Moosecountry don't think I am meaning anything wrong and hope anyone else does not see anything that way, as I have nothing but a lot of respect for you guys on here and can't ever thank you all enough for helping me out with so much that I could never repay all of you on how much you have blessed me in life.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Wish I knew Skip White did blocks but I already have had my block since last May which I got from summit racing. Dang but o well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,038 Posts
Wish I knew Skip White did blocks but I already have had my block since last May which I got from summit racing. Dang but o well.
I saw pictures of it in your storage!
Keep on plugging away, you have a wealth of knowledge to draw on here...
You, and the other Eric are some of the main bones of this forum right now!
I would not be doing what I'm doing right now if it wasn't for guys like you...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
you already have the SHP block, I get it. Like back in 1962 when GM built the 377 for the Corvette, thet were standard 4 inch bore blocks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,774 Posts
Older rod forgings had pads on the cap and crown ends that were extra material put there for balance purposes only, you should note that new manufacture rods do not have these because modern forging techniques make essentially a net part.

Back in the day these balance pads added weight without adding much if any strength as they are not where the major loads are reacting so the additional thickness added weight in areas where it didn’t add strength, in many cases as on the rod cap the added weight increased the loading that tended to distort the cap that often becomes the cause of failures like spun bearings.

The rod sees a lot of strange loads which most builders view as bending loads on the shank that result in failure, but these are way over the top extreme cases. The most common failure is the cap under tensile loads induced of all places on the intake stroke. In the big picture the load on the rod flips from positive compressive loads on upstrokes and the power down stroke to negative tensile loads on the intake stroke. This reversal of load types does a couple major things to different parts of the rod. For the shank this causes metal fatigue to where cracks are encouraged to form, usually starting on the surface. Shot peening is a highly effective tool in reducing to eliminating this problem. So much so the Chevy, Pink Rod is not a lot more than a standard production forging that is X rayed for inclusions, zyglowed for surface cracks then shot peened. The shot peening adds about 50 percent greater strength, so it is something that you really want to see on the technical list of whatever rod you chose.

On the cap end under tensile acceleration it is the bolts and cap taking the beating. The cap wants to elongate in its vertical major diameter. This pulls in bending on the bolts as the diameter across the parting line wants to move inward toward the journal at the same time pulls the joint between cap and shank open on the bearing side using the outward side as a pivot point. This distorts the parting edge of the lower bearing shell into the journal where it acts as a squeegee, tearing the oil from the journal. Then presto, magico the dry journal and bearing overheat, metal is ripped from both, they weld together for an instant or longer so the bearing spins in the rod’s big end. Caught early it’s a crank and rod replacement, left late it’s like a 20mm shell went off in the crankcase. Holding the line here at the cap brings us to not adding unnecessary weight on the cap as with balance pads, certainly improved bolt strength and or size, concentric to the bolt hollow dowels, greater pad area outside the bolt. These things are also achieved to a considerable degree with cracked caps. The latter uses the rough broken surface to lock the cap and shank so one side cannot slide away from the other which is also the function of all the other tricks I previously noted. But a lot of this is directly related to the bolt’s ability to stay tight, the rest of the good things are a backup for when that no longer happens, which makes them desirable and important players, since you never know when you first line of defense isn’t as good as it needs to be.

Bogie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Thanks for the information Boogie and I understand the old rods how they had pads and used them to grind material off so they could balance them. I know the newer rods are a heck of a lot stronger and better design in many ways over the old style rods. I just don't want to have my new rods have something grinded off the bottom and end up making a future problem that's all.

Moosecountry I don't know if your joking with me or what but I don't know how to take your response? Please don't take it the wrong way I mean no disrespect and your a cool guy and are a General on here for information like Boogie and Ericnova and some others. I know GM never made a 377 back in 62 or ever for that cubic inch but did make a 327 for the vette. Maybe you misunderstood my post or you did a typo.

I had my current 377 (4.155 bore x 3.48 stroke) built with having to get a .030 overbore size cause they did not have the 4.125 piston size at the time with a 1.560 piston height I needed to work with my 5.7 rods and 3.48 crank which I already had when I was at summit and time was short and I had to get it done as my Father had other things coming in and I had no more time to wait for parts

I had to get what they had and it was two months I had to wait for the forged pistons I wanted and looked at other brands and they only had hyper pistons at the time in the standard bore size and I wanted forged. So I had to hurry up and get what they had.

Most aftermarket pistons made for the GM 400 small block are for using 5.7 rods with the factory cranks on the rare occasion someone actually has a factory GM 400 to build since that is used a lot as well for the 383 stroker combos and the 5.565 rods are not used hardly at all in 383 builds or whatever bore size somebody uses.

I once had a GM 350 block brand new made into a 377 stroker 4.00 bore with a 3.75 400 factory small block crankshaft with the factory 5.565 connecting rods which were old and redone many years ago in a short lived build. Those old 5.565 rods looked pretty weak from my memory.

I remembered that the pistons I used were pistons of a 350 small block chevy for 5.7 rods and I knew the piston height was 1.560 and worked on both rod lengths. That is what led me to build the 377 de stroke engine.

I am keeping the 377 short block together and selling it. I have a brand new Dart shp 4.00 bore block and a brand new scat forged crank and brand new scat 5.7 pro comp I beam rods. I am reusing the Dart pro 1 platinum 200cc aluminum heads and my edelbrock rpm air gap intake and camshaft and all of my top end parts and stuff and putting it on my 350 shp build. I have a guy lined up for the short block 377.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
(Robert Hawkins saved to Corvettes
The Grand Sports 377 cubic-inch engine was the vision of Corvette Chief Engineer, Zora Arkus-Duntov, it fed off four 58mm Weber side-draft carburetors)
there were a few grand sport Corvettes with welded 327 cranks that were 377 cubes. Read the stories as they were very exciting. THese were (not factory supported) race cars that were supposed to be destroyed. THere are 5 known survivors with people of knowledge believing at least 1 more exists. The
information is spotty and not believed to be accurate in a lot of the articles. Reports of up to or close to 600 hp in some circles. THe heads were ported well into the water jackets then welded up. Again rumours of 270 cfm air flow.
Bottom line is the 377 did get built. Hope that is of interest to you if nothing else?
also aluminum bodied Corvettes were experimented with by race teams,,,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Wow Moosecountry that is some awesome history there that I never heard of. Thanks for sharing with me. I will read up on that article and I love to read history on stuff and never knew about that. The only 377 I ever heard of was the de stroking of the 400 but I am only 45 years old so I don't know to much of anything till after 2008 was when I started to learn tech books and history and all that other stuff so I did not have to bug my Father anymore and also to learn how to do things for myself.

I love to learn and know how to do anything I can get my hands on within certain areas. Thanks again and much appreciated. You the man!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
There it is of what Moosecountry was talking about. 377 Grand sport engine. Wow what a design and something ahead of its time back then. What a cool concept.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
From what I rmember hearing about them along with the aluminum block and heads, the muncie 4 spd case and rear center section where Magnesium
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
ericnova72 I don't know if I answered the one question or not but he wanted me to buy a crankshaft made under the name brand Liberty which I have never heard of before. He said he likes them better then Scat as he claimed they have way better machining on them and a way better finish and better quality.

I said to him respectfully and politely I would rather use a Scat crank which I have had great experience with as the one I have in my current build and also the cast Scat crank I had in two other 350's which I sold the one engine and the other one was in my old chevy 86 s10 which I sold, were right on the money on every single one and all they had to do was need polished and nothing else more and those cranks were so dang nice it impressed my Father who has built hundreds of motors of everything Detroit for over forty plus years of all kinds of sizes was very impressed with the finish and he used to work in a machine shop at one time as well and did custom stuff etc.

I asked him about the Liberty cranks and he said they were way better and he uses them all the time then he threw it in my face about his Nascar ride that he bought and made it street legal with turn signals etc and bragged how much power it made and all that was in it and said how great the Liberty cranks were and made Scat look bad. I asked him where they were made and he said they were made over in China by the same company who makes the Eagle brand cranks but they use different machines to make the cranks and make them to Liberty specs etc and that he has never had any one problem with one what so ever in any build he has done.

I told him about the one Eagle crank I got years back along with a set of there rods and read about how bad there tolerances and quality was in question a lot and people had to get the crank grinded down etc just to get them within specs and boy did he fly off the handle and sent me a nasty email and said I did nothing but question his work and intelligence and he mentioned all his great stuff he has and what he does and all the stuff he puts out etc and that was an insult to his quality work.

I apologized to him up and down and said I respected his decision but said that is it not the machine shops job to work with what the customer wants and not the other way around? I go to Walmart to shop and get what I want and not to get what they want me to buy. That is how he is and he wants folks to get what he wants them to buy and I said that is not right that I can't choose what I want and why it was a problem and then he said I think you would be better off and get your stuff and parts elsewhere for what you want as I won't work with you and he said his offer was the better option compared to mine and said he would never do business with me.

He bragged about them dang cranks like they were the Holy grail of cranks but yet he had no problem with my Scat rods but he did not like my DSS pistons and yes the Mahle ones would be better but I told him I don't race and just cruise and don't go to the track but he said the DSS are just factor pistons and are not that good which I disagree with as for me the quality and the other brands like the UEM Icon brand which is in my 377 were very nice for 4032 forged alloy pistons for a everyday driver deal.

I just agreed to go separate ways and left it at that and won't ever do any type of business with a guy like that ever again. The only thing I once did was get a set of special cam bearings with my previous Dart shp block but this time I am just going to use my Dart supplied ones and be done with it and skip anything with him all together.

I know Chris Straub makes a special plug thing to install in the block in the last hole towards the passenger side after the last lifter to help with quicker oiling problems and Carl said its not needed but Chris Straub said it is and there was a nasty war from both of them on another forum and I don't know if I should use it again or not. I read the three hole cam Dart cam bearings bleeds off a lot of oil pressure at idle and some have complained of low oil pressure because of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
262 Posts
Eric just a comment with no ill content intended; You seem to spend a lot of time talking to machinists and not engine builders. Chris straub is a cam grinder his success is from grinding quality and consistent camshafts, Carl is a machinist that does a lot of CnC work and is known for accuracy in a lot of situations. Then there is Chad Spieir who does excellent head work. (His 379 out performed Carls 421 torque monster)
I think you would be a long ways ahead if you were to call Jeff Lukovich? He was an extremely competitive runner in pro stock trucks in the day. He is an engine builder. He choses the parts and specs for the builds then has the work performed by Carls and Chads and Chris'. This is where you will get first hand best info.

and not just Jeff but other "builders" as well
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,996 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Thanks moosecountry I take your comments just fine and not problems there. I did not know what all Chris Straub did besides cams and some other things but I was just picking up what information that I got from them two on another forum and Chris Straub I thought did engines as he said the mod was necessary to help with the oil getting to the last two lifters on the rear passenger side quicker as I guess a custom cam and lifter set he sold to some guy had a Dart shp block done with the bigger lifter size and cam bearing upgrade of some sort of a bigger size and I guess the lifters on that one spot got stuck after some time while the others did fine and it cost him his engine.

That is where Carl said everything was fine and did not need that mod etc but Chris Straub is not the exact one who came up with the idea but some other guy who works with him and I don't know the whole history and he states on a video that it took almost two minutes or so for the oil to get to the last two lifters and that the plug mod allows the oil to get to the lifters within seconds compared to without it.

I don't know the whole history as it was a war between the two and I guess Chris knew a lot of certain stuff and I think the idea with the plug came up with an engine builder that Chris Straub works with but I don't know for sure as its been several years since I read it. I sure as heck can not call Carl lol but I will try and see on that gentleman you mentioned and see about it. I have researched it but don't know for sure. I do know they still seem to make a lot of more noise until after running for a few minutes till things get warmed up vs the other lifters but have had no issues I have heard anyways for the last almost three years. Its not expensive to get the plug kit and just do it for about $30 bucks.

I just think if it was really necessary wouldn't Dart have done something or put somethin in there literature. Thanks for the heads up though.
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top