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Discussion Starter #1
i wasn't sure if 20w50 was giving me a problems or if it was the filter. i was looking for a high zinc oil that wasn't 20w50. went around and got the Shell Rotella T. but they only had the new stuff with the lower zinc.
so i did some searching and this is what i found. they say it has less zinc but it has better wear protection over the old Shell Rotella T with more zinc.

so i'm not sure if i should drain the oil and put in racing 20w50 back in or try the new Shell Rotella T.

what do you guys think about what shell claims.


http://www.shell-lubricants.com/CJ4/cj4_faq.html

Is Shell Rotella T motor oil going to have less zinc in 2007?

Yes. The API CJ-4 (next generation) Shell ROTELLA? T multigrade motor oil will have a slightly lower level of zinc than the current API API CI-4 PLUS Shell ROTELLA? T. Zinc is typically used as part of the anti-wear system within the oil. However, less zinc in API CJ-4 oils compared with API CI-4 PLUS oils does not mean increased wear. In fact, wear protection is one of the key areas where the API CJ-4 category provides improvements over API CI-4 PLUS. (Other areas include; oxidation stability and soot control). The new API CJ-4 Shell ROTELLA? T multigrade motor oil also meets the requirements of earlier API performance categories such as API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, as well as others, and can be used in engines specifying any of these performance categories.


also this

http://www.shell.com/home/Framework...wgen/press_release_2006/cj-4_triple_1006.html
 

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zinc levels

71,
As we all know there has been a lot of talk in general about oils and flat tappet cam failures.I work at an engine testing facility and perform monthly sample test .I have some debate on the the lowering of zinc and phosforus levels.If I compare the samples levels from 3 years ago to the the most current % levels thay have not changed ??? We currently use Shell Remulla 15w40.Maybe this will change I don't know but I haven't seen it during oil analysis reports. 61 Burb
 

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Discussion Starter #5
i noticed the roller part. they claim there getting less wear on like everything. so the question is, can we believe them and how does it relate to flat tapped cams.

i'm no engine guru, but i would think if there getting less cam, rings, and cylinder wear that something is working better.

but i also understand that it doesn't prove it can protect a solid cam and lifters.

thanks for the link, i'll pick some up.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
i use cranes engine brake in lube to brake in my HYD roller motor. but i don't know anyone that runs racing oil or adds anything to there oil after brake in. i know a few people running solid cams but i never asked what they ran for oil.

the only cam failures i've read about there during brake in or just after. anyone read about or had a cam failure after a oil change to oil with less zinc?
 

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Where there's smoke there's fire.

It is more expensive to use Comps best armored lifters.... :thumbup:

and nominally more to use the better zinc oils...... or put in additive.

So, why not?

It is cheaper than having to change an engine... why risk it?

I read that several cam companies have modified the radius on their lifters for better rotation.

(I also question how egg shaped the lifter bores were on those old engine blocks that got new cams that eventually failed. :rolleyes: )
 

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Rotella

I am using this oil on a new motor with a flat tappet performance cam, with about 2 1/2 hours on it and no problems. But i use GM EOS (ENGINE OIL SUPPLEMENT) AND HAVE FOR YEARS, AND WOULD NOT FIRE AN ENGINE WITHOUT IT !!!!
 

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Break in lube

71 Javelin,
Chances are you will be okay.I have seen failures anywhere from 2 dyno pullls to 90 days or more.The cam is more likely to fail during initial break in.A lot of the failures I have seen are from bad grinds.Comp and Crane buy from the same cam blank manufacture .These are Engine Power and Camshaft Machine.The initals EP are cast into the shaft is the best way to tell.Camshaft machine doesn't mark. Several months ago I met John Callies who once owned Callies crankshaft .He now owns Camshaft Machine.His suggestion before installing a new cam was to
a.visual inspect for chatter and miss machining.
b.clean the shaft with mineral spirits and dry
c.use a hand held propane torch and heat the shaft to dispurse any moisture.
d.spray the cam with graphite
e.use quality high pressure lube on cam lobes
f.select a quality lifter since the market is being saturated with off shore lifters that are soft.
g. make sure on startup the engine is ready to run at 1500 -2000 rpm no idleing allowed for 20 minutes.
Our failures have went from 12 a month to 5 or less in the last 6 mths.
Hope this helps
 

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Discussion Starter #11
wow, that's a lot of failures. i've been hanging out on a amc forum for the last few years and you almost never seen a post about it. i never knew there where so many failures. wow, that just blows my mind.


my post really wasn't about new motors but for motors that where already broken in with 500+ miles on them. i'm temped to try this oil with no oil additive to add zinc.

any new motor i build are going to be roller motors. but the firebird that i bought has a small soild cam in it.
 

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61Burb said:
a.visual inspect for chatter and miss machining.


b.clean the shaft with mineral spirits and dry


c.use a hand held propane torch and heat the shaft to dispurse any moisture.


d.spray the cam with graphite


e.select a quality lifter since the market is being saturated with off shore lifters that are soft.


f. make sure on startup the engine is ready to run at 1200 rpm no idleing allowed for 20 minutes.

Our failures have went from 12 a month to 5 or less in the last 6 mths.
Very good information here... :thumbup:
 

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KULTULZ said:
Very good information here... :thumbup:
Question about recommended assembly lube vs. graphite.

Question about 1200 rpm break-in vs 2000 to 2500 usual.

I still believe in Comp's armored face lifters..... just like Delco premiums.
 

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xntrik said:
Question about recommended assembly lube vs. graphite.

Question about 1200 rpm break-in vs 2000 to 2500 usual.

I still believe in Comp's armored face lifters..... just like Delco premiums.
Me too...
Everything that I have read says 1500 - 2500 RPM and varying the RPM at random intervals. Flat tappet cams rely on splash oiling, and varying the speed promotes splashing into different areas.

Graphite? I dunno ... maybe it provides some "insurance" protection during the initial cranking, but I would think that it would quickly wash off.

Assembly lube has that "stick with it" quality, similar to the old egg-beater demonstration that you used to see at trade shows. Lucas oil products currently uses a display that has a set of stacked nylon gears to demonstrate this property. The bottom gear sits in an oil reservoir, and turning the crank on that gear demontrates how the oil clings and transfers (upward) to the whole set of gears.

Lastly, the next cam I buy WILL be a roller cam. If oil mfr's are dropping additives that flat tappet cams need to survive, I guess we'll all have to step up to the new technology. When my engine was in getting rebuilt, they were poking a roller cam into a Ford 351C. When I commented, they told me that it was a very mild grind ... the guy just wanted a roller cam. I think I understand why now.
 

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One comment I might make is that the new "lesser" oil situation seems to be only affecting newly installed flat tappet cams.

Flat tappet cams that have been in use for tens of thousands of miles and have an established and super polished surface finish /wear pattern do not seem to be affected since the improved lubricity of the new oils works well in that situation.

I believe that is the reasoning behind the oil companies feeling that "older- used" engines will have no problems with the new oils.

The only cam that I have ever go bad is an assembly line new car.

Note that I also believe in buying the best lifters from the cam manufacturer.
 

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if some of you plan on using high spring pressures, its advisable to install lighter "break-in" valvesprings to allow teh lifters to break in with the camshaft. Then after break in has occured, install the normal springs.

When you 1st start and engine, you want ZERO idle time, also dont forget to prime the engine with a drill to circulate engine oil thrugh the engine.

I think its worth using a 1987-92 TPI 305/350 block from the Vettes or F-bodies, 1996-02 Vortec 350/305 or 1993-1997 Gen 2 block as they all come eqipped with roller lifters and the requisite equipement from the factory.
With teh rollers you get, peace of mind, 2 lb/ft less rotational torque, and around 5% better fuel economy. They also allow more agressive ramps to open teh valve sooner and close it later since roller tip cant dig into the cam like the edge of a flat tappet can.
peace
Hog
 

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xntrik said:
I believe that is the reasoning behind the oil companies feeling that "older- used" engines will have no problems with the new oils.
The reasoning is the oil companies must supply product demanded by the industry and EPA. There is little interest (lack of knowledge) in older car systems. There is also less money as the product will be more expensive and hard to find in discount outlets. It is up to the owner to insure he is using the correct product. The zinc package is needed for the flat tappet design.
 

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If that's a lot of failures depends on how many engines a month are going out. If Burb's building 12 a month and having 12 bad, that's like really bad. If his company is building 1200 a month, well, 10% is more than I'd like to see, but it's not too awful bad... :D

Regardless of numbers, going from 12 a month to less than one a month is a phenominal improvement!


61Burb said:
Our failures have went from 12 a month to 5 or less in the last 6 mths. Hope this helps
 

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farna said:
If that's a lot of failures depends on how many engines a month are going out. If Burb's building 12 a month and having 12 bad, that's like really bad. If his company is building 1200 a month, well, 10% is more than I'd like to see, but it's not too awful bad... :D

Regardless of numbers, going from 12 a month to less than one a month is a phenominal improvement!

ah..... that's 1 %
 

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KULTULZ said:
The reasoning is the oil companies must supply product demanded by the industry and EPA. There is little interest (lack of knowledge) in older car systems. There is also less money as the product will be more expensive and hard to find in discount outlets. It is up to the owner to insure he is using the correct product. The zinc package is needed for the flat tappet design.

Certainly there is a degree of validity in what you say.

The oil companies would not deliberately make a product that would quickly ruin 84% of all the vehicles on the North American roads.
 
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