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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok guys I apologize if this becomes a long post but I ripped of my intake and I had other threads but wanted to just make a new one and this is what I have found out with things. I have had a problem since day one from last fall of my intake not wanting to stay sealed on my 350 small block chevy which is a Dart shp block and using Dart pro 1 platinum aluminum heads. Those heads and a previous Edelbrock rpm air gap intake did not ever exhibit the problem on the previous 377 shp build I used to have. Lotctite name brand RTV black was used on the 377 build. Then on the 350 build Permatex quick dry one minute Right stuff gasket maker was used on the coolant port side only and not on the printo seal side on the Felpro 1205 gaskets. Second and third time it was used on both sides of the gasket.

All I did was transfer the top half over to my new 350 short block. This problem happened with my Edelbrock rpm air gap and also my current Edelbrock rpm non air gap style intake. The problem was the front coolant ports would not leak at first and no antifreeze would leak inside the lifter valley or anything or leak while running. The problem it would have after a while is it would weep antifreeze out the top area of the coolant port in the front only and both sides did it the first two times trying to get it to stay sealed. The fourth time both sides stayed sealed for a while after running several heat cycles and then checking the torque on things and all was good. Then one side started to weep but the other stayed sealed.

After it did that I knew it needed to come off again for I think is the 4th time. I never drove it after that but checked the other side on the occasion and it stayed sealed and then three weeks after sitting and I never ran it and still checked the torque and it was good it one day just decided to start weeping some antifreeze droplets.Temperatures here in Ohio was going up and down very big as being 70 degrees one day and then a few days later getting clear down to low 30's and then freezing at night . I had some hoses that needed tighten up some but I have checked all things and know for a fact it was not leaking from the hoses as I took care of that.

This weeping happened last late summer when it was first done and it was still warm out before fall weather became common.

Anyways got my intake taken off and here is what I found wise after cleaning things up and doing some checking of angles and feeler gauge stuff. Sorry if the photos are not the best but using a mirror and then a cell phone and trying to get the best pictures is not the easiest as the angle of the mirror can trick your eyes on the angles of stuff.

I used my Edelbrock eps intake in most of the photos since my Edelbrock rpm was not fully cleaned up yet. From what I can tell with looking at my building small block chevy books and what I could research etc things look like they are good. My block on both this build and previous build which I had not had this problem were only decked .009 and nothing else was done and use a felpro 1003 head gasket which is .041 compressed.

Most of the photos are using the Edelbrock eps intake but the Performer rpm was still dirty somewhat and have not had time to scrub it fully clean yet around the bolt hole area as it still had some gasket maker on the holes on the inner part I need to clean out but both intake the bolt holes line up dang near perfectly and show the same angles as far as what you see in the photos to see how things line up.

I hope I can get some opinions on my photos as I am no expert here. The photo with the gaskets is what it looked like when I tore it off.
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1. Old Edelbrock performer rpm intake which was new when installed earlier this year measurements. With intake sitting on new felpro 1205 gaskets the side gaskets only I have about a .090 or a little more of a gap on the china wall with drag but still could move across the wall area and the angle bend on the intake looks really good in relation to the cylinder heads and nothing out of the ordinary.

2. With the Edelbrock performer rpm sitting just on the heads and four corner bolts finger tight with no gaskets and also no bolts, using a feeler gauge I had about .015 or so of a gap on the china wall and checking the flatness with a feeler gauge I could get about an .008 of drag top to bottom on the four coolant port areas from top to bottom on the angle side.

3. With a brand new Edelbrock eps intake never installed I have on hand I checked to see how it would do just to be curious. Sitting with gaskets I have a china wall gap of around .090 or so with some slight drag but still can move across the wall. With the intake sitting on the heads with no gaskets and with four corner bolts finger tight and also without bolts I can get a .002 sized feeler gauge only between the intake and cylinder heads and its a nice tight drag across all four corners and the intake on the felpro gaskets just like the other intake it looks good on the angles as best as I can tell. With this intake sitting with no gaskets I get about .005 or a hair more of a gap on the china wall depending on how the intake is sitting if I move it back or forth a hair then things can be around .008 or so.

4. Bolt holes on both intakes line up just fine without any problems when sitting on the gaskets and even without any gaskets and the intake sitting on the heads I can still screw in my bolts with hardly having to move anything by even just a hair so no alignment issues.

5. Took a straight edge and checked all over the angles on both heads and I could not even get a .0015 gauge to hardly even drag as it was good and tight with the straight edge as it was good an flat across the top to bottom all over both sides and no areas of anything looking to be off.

6. Straight edge on the slightly used Edelbrock performer rpm that is in the photos I could get nothing more then about a .003 difference on the front and rear flat ends and as far as the side angles goes they were pretty straight and nothing more then around .002 or so difference in flatness.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Now a few other things to add while its on my mind on the photo that what it looked like when I took the intake off and did not touch anything the intake runner were dry and no oil or signs of an internal vacuum leak could be found as it ran fine before minus the one other issue of the mystery carb tuning issue of the sputtering letting off the throttle but on those gaskets it looks like they was soaking up something but that happened while it was sitting over time as I noticed at the of the gaskets that stick out after I never drove it anymore it would increase over time and I noticed this happened years back on other builds I had but they never had any leaks or any sealing problems for coolant leaks or vacuum leaks other wise.

I don't know what would cause that and can only maybe think condensation perhaps. Also when I took my old intake off I saw that the printo seal was fully up against the front coolant ports as it left an imprint on the the intake. The back sides never weeped or leaked so go figure. I am this time not putting any RTV around the coolant ports and will post later on how I am going to do it for sealing and trying again.
 

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Two of your photos clearly show the manifold hole not centered with the threads and at hole edge. IMHO should drill out manifold holes about .025 larger to insure bolt threads do not run against the holes in manifold after and during torquing bolts. Use teflon sealant on manifold bolts as oil walks up threads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
That is because I can slide it a little bit and they do center up.I think the ones your talking about are without the gaskets put on the side which makes a big difference. Its kind of a hard thing as it wants to slide one way or the other and it skews the way the photos look and the threads did not touch any intake that has been on the engine from three different ones. Its hard to get a good enough angle with my cell phone and also I don't have nothing for lighting in my garage and have to use a trouble light.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yes that is and no that will not be happening again. I did not do it that way but my Father did it when he installed it for me as I don't have a heated garage and this was during the winter months with a few weird days of warmer weather it was done. I will post later when I have some time the method I am wanting to do but will need some pointers as I am not using the quick dry Right Stuff gasket maker and its been 11 years since I last did an intake seal and install deal by myself and I have had a lot of health related issues happen since then and should actually be dead but I am still here.

I am going to use Permatex number 2 around the coolant and intake ports but have questions on a few things. Not using any rtv on the bolt threads either and only permatex number 2 on the bolts as well. I feel the rtv being the problem with it being so hard and not very flexible and also the constant temperatures going up then down by over 40 degrees did a job on things for some reason. The right stuff is good for the china walls and no problem there but elsewhere it does not work well and so much more then that.

The past years I used only Ultra Black and it always cured softer vs the Right Stuff and seemed more flexible. I will post more later as I have some errands to do and things to take care off but hope some of the veterans on here which I can't list all will chime in and give me some pointers. I''ll be back.
 

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Don't use anything on the intake ports. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Verbotten. The whole point of those encapsulated blue viscous lines is so you don't need sealant. Even if you're using an old all-blue printoseal fiber gasket, don't use anything on the intake ports.

Any sealant you use on intake ports will fail eventually. The constant thousands-per-minute vacuum fluctuations will leave you with a vacuum leak. Sealants are flexible and the constant vibes will eventually rip it out. Also, don't use different sealants on the same application. Ultra Black and Right Stuff might not play well together. I've even tried a combination of the same brand of blue and black and it leaked. When I pulled it apart, where the two sealants met looked like bubbly foam.

Pick one. Ultra black or Right Stuff. Use it on the china walls and up to the water passages. Water passages only get the thinnest possible skim. Put a dollop on your fingers and rub it on like you're cleaning your glasses. You want it to look damp but not have any thickness to the sealant. This is one time you definitely don't want it to squish out because you can't get to the water ports to clean up excess.
 

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If the bolt threads go into water, just use teflon paste. It stays goopy. RTV cures and the next time you take that bolt out you'll have millions of shreds of RTV "dust" everywhere.
 

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WAAAAYYY too much RTV. Each water port should use no more than a pearl-sized drop of RTV shared on both sides. One drop on the tip of your middle finger, smear half of it on your thumb, rub it on the water passage of the gasket like you're cleaning your glasses. Repeat for each port. Nothing on the intake ports.

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
The process I was thinking of doing is putting permatex number 2 on the coolant ports which is a gasket sealant and non hardening and also not a gasket maker or rtv type of substance. I was thinking of putting it on the intake ports to help keep the gasket in place and seal it as its a gasket sealer and non hardening and was recommended by some on this forum in other posts. I am using no rtv on any of my bolts ever again but only using permatex number 2 to seal them as a guy on here recommended that.

I want to put my permatex 2 on the coolant ports and the intake head side of the gasket if its not a problem and then let it setup for a few minutes or so but the thing is with the gasket maker. I am going to use only the right stuff 90 minute gasket maker and not the instant dry stuff as I don't like using it as I have to take my time. On the instructions it says to lay your bead down then assemble the parts immediately while still wet then install and then finger tighten until material starts to push out and then let it set for an hour and then torque to specs.

I have heard to put your silicone on and then let it skin over first then install and then just torque it down and let it cure and I am going to let it cure for a week as I won't be putting fluids inside it any ways as I have some hoses and other things to replace and am redoing some fuel lines and stuff so no need to put the antifreeze in yet and am still working on rebuilding my carb.

Now the other thing I was thinking was putting permatex 2 on the other side of the coolant ports only that faces the intake manifold as well but should I leave it alone? Or should I just put a small amount of permatex 2 on the intake manifold itself around the coolant ports?

I am just afraid if I did and I had to move the intake ever so slightly forward or rearward I will mess up the gaskets by doing so.

I know the printo seal is supposed to be left alone but dang it I need to have this sealed once and for all and have no leaks and I don't want to end up stripping out my head threads because of pulling it off and on and i don't have the best of health and for what a healthy guy can do in four hours it takes me a few days as I am limited in what I can do and some days I can't do hardly much at all cause of health stuff.

I just want to do it right the first time and not mess anything up. Don't worry Curtis73 it won't be done like that ever again trust me but like I said that was not my doing. I agree way too much rtv.
 

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I prefer gaskets on the China wall with only minimum RTV in the corners where gaskets meet. I lightly dampen throughly clean surfaces that will mate with the RTV as the RTV does like and use moisture in its cure cycle, yes I’m aware that the instructions say a dry surface. I never allow any oil or left over cleaning solvent. I never use patent gasket adhesives, pastes, paints or goos with cut/stamped gaskets. I do put a thin film of grease on intake gaskets excluding the corners that get RTV’ed. My idea here is to allow the gasket to slip and slide as torque is applied so it essentially finds its own comfort the other is to make removal of the gasket at disassembly easier and cleanup less a messy chore.

I used to use Teflon Plumbers Putty to seal intake bolts on the Chevy as well as head bolts or studs but some years ago changed to Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket Number 3 or part number 80017. This forms a pliable film seal so it can maintain a seal through temperature changes and has about the same lubricating characteristics when freshly applied as engine oil so published torque values still apply. The reason for the change is I found that plumbers putty was being dissolved by some coolant formulations.

Where fastening aluminum parts I always use a hardened, ground washer between the aluminum part and the steel of a fastener with the fastener contact side with the washer lubricated but the washer to aluminum side dry. The reason for this is to allow the fastener to slip on the washer as torque is pulled but to prevent at the same time slippage between the washer and the aluminum part.

Not that this is perfect, but I have very little problem with failures over the years, and developed this technique simply because it produced the least amount of redoes of everything I’ve used for assembly techniques.

I should add that when I lived up in the Cascades where the mountain weather is more like that of the upper midwest or worse, I always used an engine heater in winter so there wasn't such a thermal stress on the engine between sitting overnight and operating temperatures.

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Keep sealer away from intake ports . period
Don't use print o seal gaskets with aluminum manifolds
Leave the permatex in the last century .
If you need to hold the gaskets in place , a dab of gorilla snot ( weatherstrip adhesive) far from the ports as you can .
Bead of silicone OR right stuff on China walls .
If you use silicone , a THIN coating around the water ports .
When you set the intake , right spot , first time , no wiggle , no slide .
Teflon paste ( not tape) on bolts .

WTF is " Teflon plumbers putty ??
 

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Don't use print o seal gaskets with aluminum manifolds
Fel=Pro Print-o-Seal gaskets like the one in the first pic in this thread, are the correct gaskets for Aluminum intakes.


The incorrect Fel-Pro gasket for aluminum is the Perma-Torque Blue....the Teflon coated gasket, so called stock replacement application........it is only for iron-to-iron assembly's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The felpro gaskets like the 1205 are what all the aluminum head and intake makers recommend for there aluminum stuff and that is what I have always used in the past without failure or problems. You can't use stock type gaskets like the felpro blue permatorque ones. Ericnova72 said it while I was typing.
 

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Keep sealer away from intake ports . period
Don't use print o seal gaskets with aluminum manifolds
Leave the permatex in the last century .
If you need to hold the gaskets in place , a dab of gorilla snot ( weatherstrip adhesive) far from the ports as you can .
Bead of silicone OR right stuff on China walls .
If you use silicone , a THIN coating around the water ports .
When you set the intake , right spot , first time , no wiggle , no slide .
Teflon paste ( not tape) on bolts .

WTF is " Teflon plumbers putty ??
It’s teflon paste for plumbing joints it’s the same stuff ARP puts in dime bags for hotrodders. It’s not necessarily coolant, fuel or oil proof neither is most RTV they use the term “resistant” that means maybe for awhile.

I went back to last century Permatex cause it works without all the rocket science chemistry. You don’t need to worry about pieces of RTV breaking off and floating around in the coolant or the oil.

I like rubber China Wall gaskets don't much care what Freiberger is doing. He couldn’t even find Chevy, self guiding 1.6 roller tipped rocker arms in one episode while living in Los Angles. Give me a break, if you can’t find something like that in LA you’re a lost cause.

I grease some gaskets as I found that sometimes these rubbery coatings hang up and don’t let the gasket settle smoothly as torque is applied.

I shy away from gooey or sticky coatings including copper colored paint as this stuff is just messy to remove when you go back in for routine maintenance or technical changes. Unless it’s an emergency to keep on keeping on I don’t fix things by glueing them together unless I‘m building model airplanes, boats, cars or trains.

I did make a motorcycle clutch shim from a coffee can lid in the middle of the night at an El Arco pit stop, surprisingly that got bike and rider to La Paz. Not exactly glue in the true sense of the word but I wanted to keep going and was willing to risk it.





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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
So I know opinions will vary on here about stuff on the head to hold the gasket in place but I have Permatex aviation gasket maker number 3 80017 on hand which says to use to seal gaskets and also threads and I also got permatex number 2. My question is both of them good enough for being equal sealing the bolt threads regardless of which one I use and and a thin coat around the coolant ports?

The aviation stuff is nice but man is it messy to work with and that brush. I used some on my valve cover gaskets and it works but I don't want to have to take a long time getting things ready and want to bolt it up the right way which I guess will vary on opinion on what works. I want to have something to hold the gaskets in place and help seal that is a given but not using rtv this time around and this time will put a smudge of oil on the top of the washer before I go torquing the bolts down.
 

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It’s teflon paste for plumbing joints it’s the same stuff ARP puts in dime bags for hotrodders. It’s not necessarily coolant, fuel or oil proof neither is most RTV they use the term “resistant” that means maybe for awhile.

I went back to last century Permatex cause it works without all the rocket science chemistry. You don’t need to worry about pieces of RTV breaking off and floating around in the coolant or the oil.

I like rubber China Wall gaskets don't much care what Freiberger is doing. He couldn’t even find Chevy, self guiding 1.6 roller tipped rocker arms in one episode while living in Los Angles. Give me a break, if you can’t find something like that in LA you’re a lost cause.

I grease some gaskets as I found that sometimes these rubbery coatings hang up and don’t let the gasket settle smoothly as torque is applied.

I shy away from gooey or sticky coatings including copper colored paint as this stuff is just messy to remove when you go back in for routine maintenance or technical changes. Unless it’s an emergency to keep on keeping on I don’t fix things by glueing them together unless I‘m building model airplanes, boats, cars or trains.

I did make a motorcycle clutch shim from a coffee can lid in the middle of the night at an El Arco pit stop, surprisingly that got bike and rider to La Paz. Not exactly glue in the true sense of the word but I wanted to keep going and was willing to risk it.





Bogie
One thing for certain , you're truly set in your ways .
 

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Eric32, I’d pull the intake so it can be tested for unseen cracks, might be a consideration with the head or head’s as well. You’ve been around this post a few times with nothing that pops out where the machining and dimensions appear pretty normal, goos, glues, gasket changes and more fastener torque don‘t help, looks like time to search for something more sinister.

Bogie
 
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