Hot Rod Forum banner
21 - 40 of 58 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
I'll try to make my point without getting political, but it will be tough. The problem with EV's is the manufacturers are being pushed to develop them. Anytime you push technology you set yourself up for failure. Certain technology needs to evolve. We were making perfect progress but the current government is pushing for it to come to market too quickly and we will be the test pigeons. I personally could never afford an EV at there current prices. Plus I would never spend that kind of money on a vehicle that can go 200 miles without being charged up. Sure have to refuel a gas powered vehicle but gas stations are everywhere and not hard to find. If your really scared of running out of gas you can carry an extra 5 gallon can in the trunk. Can you carry and extra battery?? So my point is EV's are only around town commuter vehicles at this point. They have not fully evolved into a direct replacement for a gas powered car. Doesn't it seem strange they are more money then a gas powered car? If they want the country to go to EV's why are they not affordable and why aren't they giving you some discount for trading in your gas powered vehicle?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
697 Posts
We sadly live in a world of BS...
If the goal was to protect the environment (and it often needs protection!), EVs are certainly not the solution. We are being brainwashed by a bunch of well-connected extremists, fanatics who use the protection of the environment (who could be against that?) to further their ideals.
To go back to the topic of cars, if the goal was to protect the environment and getting the general population onboard with the plan, why not push propane-powered for cars? Millions of taxis use it already, it works, and it is fairly easy to adapt our current (or older) cars; it even used to be fairly popular in Europe, 20 or 30 years ago. And then, there are now synthetic fuels being developed (by Porsche, for instance), they do not emit any greenhouse gases! They will be the way to go for passenger planes, but they are being ignored for cars... Strange...
What the h... is going on?...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
We sadly live in a world of BS...
If the goal was to protect the environment (and it often needs protection!), EVs are certainly not the solution. We are being brainwashed by a bunch of well-connected extremists, fanatics who use the protection of the environment (who could be against that?) to further their ideals.
To go back to the topic of cars, if the goal was to protect the environment and getting the general population onboard with the plan, why not push propane-powered for cars? Millions of taxis use it already, it works, and it is fairly easy to adapt our current (or older) cars; it even used to be fairly popular in Europe, 20 or 30 years ago. And then, there are now synthetic fuels being developed (by Porsche, for instance), they do not emit any greenhouse gases! They will be the way to go for passenger planes, but they are being ignored for cars... Strange...
What the h... is going on?...
My uncle is a chemical engineer and is working for a company that is developing a biofuel made from animal fat here in the US. He says it is a lot less of a carbon foot print then an EV. I'd be willing to bet it never makes it to market. So sad how only certain technology makes it to market and the rest goes dead. Its all politics follow the money!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
So how does a person traveling cross country "refill" their vehicle along the way, and how long does it take?

What happens if there is an accident on the expressway and cars are backed up for a mile or two? Since the cars have limited range and they are stuck in traffic,will all of them need to be towed? Will the tow trucks be electric too?

When the weather is bad and electrical power is out, what will people do. Having been thru an ice storm that knocked power out for two weeks, I consider that important. People who had no power and couldn't heat their homes had to evacuate......but how do you do that if you can't charge your car?



They did a couple of shows recently where they showed the extensive electrical connectivity needed to make these batteries. I don't think we are" there"yet as far as electric car technology is concerned. They can be blindingly fast, but I'd hate to pay what it costs to replace one of them. Here is a video of what they look like. Skip to the 11 minute mark if you want to watch them open it up, or the 16 minute mark if you want to see all the little batteries inside.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,319 Posts
Like all technologies you have to get started somewhere and they improve with time. Nobody in 1900 thought the automobile would replace the horse,. Motor vehicles were expensive, failure prone and didn’t do well on horse paths that passed as highways back then.

The horse actually persisted into my youth of the 1940’s pulling the milkman’s van and other utility type efforts in the cities and they persisted on farms well into this era. The technical improvements following WW-II finally made the IC engine suitable for these in city efforts at an affordable price for short, stop frequent applications. All horse use as a source of motive power was washed away by the early 1950’s. Horses became toys for little girls and actors in Budweiser adds.

The fallacy with carbon neutral fuels is population growth. The example is a 3% reduction in CO2 emissions is offset by a 3% increase in population. This was and is the SMOG battle in California where the population increase far exceeds the technological gains in percentages, so without a technical revolution you’re playing a game of stasis at best. But it looks like water is going to be the first problem to solve. Too much in the south easy not enough in the mid and far west. Sounds like a construction project opportunity to me building the infrastructure to move water from areas of too much to areas of too little. But a return to the 1950’s with half the population we have now might be an option as that’s about the size of the country when I was a kid.

If were not going to control population then there are going to have to be new technologies that permit it or without these scientific break throughs nature will impose the population ceiling.This is nothing new, all human historical population gains come from technological improvements that bend the natural world to human needs or wants. As things stand now without artificial fertilization and the genetic manipulation crops and and food animals the current world population would be impossible to sustain. As for fishing for wild caught it’s like mining, eventually you bust out on the other side of the mountain. So like it or not we will have fish farming as well just like Asia. But one can already see that food production will move into machine made artificials. And food as we know it today will become the meals of the wealthy. Welcome to the dawn of Soylent Green. The funny thing is it will probably be a petroleum product that cuts out the making of fuels and fertilizers to feed plants and animals that we eat. Kinda like cutting out the middle man this will be directly from the well through the factory to your table. Talk about a greasy spoon!

Anyway, I‘m just an observer from behind my glasses.

Bogie
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
9,930 Posts
Tesla has near 25k charge stations around the country. Many superchargers (as they call them) along super highways. I've seen some Tesla chargers in fast food parking lots on the I-40 in Arizona. 25k charge stations sounds like a lot. It really isn't. Dealing with spent batterys is an item to be dealt with better. We have decades of nuclear waste to deal with and all we do is hide, bury , store it. People talk about clean nuclear electrical energy... sorry , its not clean. Neither are EV batterys
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
253 Posts
Besides cost of the cars, here's the killer for me and a lot of other folks.

According to this site:

It will take 4 days to charge a new Tesla if all you have is a 120 plug! Hope you're not in a hurry.

It will take 6-30 hours to charge on 240 volts. This is depending on how much 240 service you have from 40 amps to 80 amps. 80 amp service on one circuit is a lot for the typical US home. Don't forget, you still have to run the rest of your house, too. Most homes have 200 amp meters, some older homes only have 100 amps. 40 amps will be comparable to running an electric oven on high for 24 or more hours. Wonder what that will do for your electric bill?

The supercharger takes 30 minutes to add 170 miles of range. Sounds good, but the trouble is, you need 480 volt 3-phase service with 300 amp capability!!! Not very many homes are ever going to have that type of service. Many of the businesses I've worked at had didn't have that much amperage available on 480.

Most folks that are considering electrics only focus on the best case charging scenarios, when most of the time it will probably be the worst case.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,319 Posts
If you can just get the wealthy to buy them and if my neighborhood is any example they are. It will be a big help.

I realize the Liberals dream of the death of the internal combustion engine, but really all we need is a piece of the population to move on the grid for power. It is a lot easier to manage the pollution of combustion on an industrial scale at a fixed location. This will be good at least in the short term for the coal producing states and certainly great for GE’s malingering industrial power generation business. No doubt there will be the pollution of construction but that will be a front loaded occurrence that will settle out in time. The nice thing about batteries is they are recyclable, the bad thing is the chemistry to do it is horrific to behold. Kiss the salt flats good by as that is a major source of lithium in the US, but it will restore towns like Ely, Nevada and others around that part of Nevada and Utah. We‘ll have to string a lot of new power lines, this will be a huge boon to the construction industry and a huge financial boost to those people without advanced college degrees in search of high paying jobs. While I hate to see the V8’s engine resigned to museums showing buck boards and horse collars it looks pretty necessary.

My next big project as your future president is a national water system that moves the flood excesses of the south east and mid Atlantic states to the south west. This will keep overpopulation moving to Arizona and California leaving space for mudding and swamp buggying in the southeast. They will just have to give up some hollers for lakes, which of course have muddy bottoms and shallows. Just think of the catfish. I mean come on guys this is a sold win/win. Ya know from the time the interstate highway was commissioned and financed till the last stretch ribbon cutting was 30 years, you can get a job that will take you to retirement on projects like these. This has got to beat driving you daily driver as a taxi for Uber or a delivery van for Amazon.

Bogie
 

·
Gotta love a turbo!
Joined
·
2,672 Posts
I'd rather see municipal vehicles, delivery, and over-the-road trucks converted, leaving the personal vehicles out of it. In a perfect world, long haulers could even use universal replaceable battery packs that could be swapped in minutes at a truck station for a fully charged one...

Russ
 

·
Member - AMC/Rambler "guru"
Joined
·
1,811 Posts
I'd think long haulers would be the LAST to switch to something like electric due to the power and amount of fuel needed. Hot swap battery packs (similar to industrial forklifts) would be a solution though.

Recycling lithium ion batteries is more expensive than it's worth. It's sort of like plastic recycling too -- new raw materials are cheaper and higher quality, so plastic recycling really isn't cost effective. Nearly 50% of plastic put in the recycling bin now still goes to the landfill -- since about a year ago China banned importing scrap plastic. They were having issues with low cost (and poorly protected) labor that was sorting the stuff getting sick due to the different "stuff" in the bailed up plastic waste (some medical waste in there) and then 30% or so of the sorted plastic still went to landfills as it wasn't practically recyclable. The Chinese government decided the easiest way to not have to deal with OUR trash and people getting ill because of it was to ban it. Even in China the profit margin to recycle plastic was slim. Some still goes to other Asian countries and gets hand sorted, but they will figure out it's not good for them at some point. I think I read that overall it's like 33-33-33 (I know, 1% left out....) as far as recycled-incinerated to produce heat/power-landfill. But in most places, especially in the eastern 3/4 of the US, it's closer to 40-50% going to the landfill now.

I could feasibly use a truck with a 250 mile electric range in my business (handyman). I average 80 miles a day, lots of stop and go in town driving, so that reduces range -- as well as carrying 500 or pounds of tools and supplies. Occasionally I have 140-150 mile days, and on rare occasion use a trailer for larger projects (like hauling 4-5 privacy fence panels, or lumber to build a small deck). I generally stick to projects that take no more than 2-3 days tops, so nothing big. If I could always charge it over night (I'd need that 80A charger, I guess) it would be practical, but I don't think it would be that cost effective -- not with the cost of such a truck! I'm using a 2003 Tundra (long paid for!) with 260K miles on it and no signs of giving it up any time soon. A new battery powered truck with similar capabilities would be $80K+!!! I don't think I could drive it long enough without having to replace the battery pack ($$$$$) to be cost effective. Maybe in another 10-20 years it will be better, but I'm in no hurry to trade my ICE vehicles in. As noted, electric vehicles are not as green as people are convinced...
 
  • Like
Reactions: vpd66

·
Registered
Joined
·
919 Posts
Now lets look at electricity generated in the USA in 2020. You can draw your own conclusions from there. But I think they had better get busy on the renewables if they hope to add another 26% of clean energy to this profile below. At least that would get them down to below 50% of total electricity generated by fossil fuels. Seems pretty silly to make this wonderful "clean energy" by burning fossil fuels. Maybe the solution is a nuclear plant in everyone's back yard or to give up some of those high-dollar vacation properties to build reservoirs for hydroelectric plants. Certainly much cheaper electricity than those ugly fields of windmills in Iowa or huge solar arrays in cloudy North-central Indiana - but someone certainly made some big Federal money building them! ...... but can our current infrastructure distribute another 26% without brownouts everywhere?

...... and then the price of electricity will skyrocket to cover all the additional costs. Rant off!

617721
EV proponents must be hoping renewable sources will soar, because most of those folks hate nuclear, coal, and even natural gas. Also, wind turbines kill birds, and hyrdo power turns beautiful rivers into ugly lakes. So what's a greenie to do?

It's ironic (moronic?) that the political class shutting down natural gas exploration and pipelines are the same people calling for more EVs. Of course, they can always run the EVs on fairly dust.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
As a 4-year Tesla owner, and a 5-year electric hot rod builder (yes, I'm slow, but the car's not ;-) ) - I'm all in with electric. Yes, I'm just finishing my woodiewagon project - '34 phantom hard-top with 388 sbc (bored 'n stroked, mild Wolverine race cam, fast burn heads, KB pistons, Hooker headers, MSD 6a, and a '63 Hilborn mechanical - reworked for Megasquirt electronics.
There are many types of lithium batteries, depending on their chemical makeup (and more types being developed all the time). Some are "hot" in that they can self-ignite with under-charged then over-charged bad battery management. The cells in my all electric '31 roadster project are CALB. They are very stable. We tried to light one up at an ev gathering about 8 years ago, and could not do it.
I don't know about government "push" for EVs ~ some states still don't allow their sales ~ but yes, there are environmental mandates for air quality where legacy manufacturers must offer a certain percentage of their product to be non-pollutive ~ and there are ways around that ....
I'm sooo happy that I don't pump poison fumes into our atmosphere every f'n time I go somewhere ~
And as Big Daddy has said, it takes MANY thousands of dollars to get "into the race" with the big-boy gas racers today. Serious drag racing has become a sport for the wealthy, so that's why Swamp Rat 38 is electric. EV racers have just recently passed the 200mph line in the quarter and I think there's hella more to come. Garlits is looking at public involvement, like the old days, rather than just spectating the elite $$ blow down the 1320.
And VPD66 - yes, there are recently small portable power packs that can act like a spare gas can if your ev runs out of juice. I also have grandchildren up and down the west coast (US) that I have no problem visiting often with my model X. Some places are still scant with chargers, but not that many. Just charged up in Willow Creek CA (of all places) last week.
wave1957 - just an fyi ~ propane is fossil fuel. There is no such thing as a fossil fueled vehicle that does not emit greenhouse gases.
ekimneirbo - LOL ~ hint: electric cars do not idle - there's no fuel loss while stuck in traffic - and, the air is better while waiting for the road to be cleared ;-) And, I mostly charge my X from my home solar cells. I agree with you that we "are not there yet" with ev technology - there's much more exciting development happening*
Last year, with the Almeda fire burning down about 25% of our town (Talent, OR), I was able to charge my ev with my gas backup generator. When I get a battery storage system for my solar, I'll be able to charge direct from the solar (grid up or down, no matter).
Crosly - ev batteries have to be tip-top, for their charge and discharge capabilities. Many "used" ev batteries are then repurposed as home storage batteries for solar systems where the charge/discharge rate is not so demanding.
Hotrod 46 - I charge up my X from low to high (10% to 90%) at home with my solar cells, through our electric utility grid (Pacific Power). It takes about 55 minutes at a supercharger, and it takes all night with my 220v/50a welder outlet.
Bogie - LMFAO - great comment**
Now really, guys ~ who can beat a 5200+lb. production sedan that get's to 60 in under 2 seconds? 🙃

21 - 31 of 31 Posts
Prev


V
vpd66
Registered

Joined Dec 3, 2010
329 Posts
#21 · 6 d ago

I'll try to make my point without getting political, but it will be tough. The problem with EV's is the manufacturers are being pushed to develop them. Anytime you push technology you set yourself up for failure. Certain technology needs to evolve. We were making perfect progress but the current government is pushing for it to come to market too quickly and we will be the test pigeons. I personally could never afford an EV at there current prices. Plus I would never spend that kind of money on a vehicle that can go 200 miles without being charged up. Sure have to refuel a gas powered vehicle but gas stations are everywhere and not hard to find. If your really scared of running out of gas you can carry an extra 5 gallon can in the trunk. Can you carry and extra battery?? So my point is EV's are only around town commuter vehicles at this point. They have not fully evolved into a direct replacement for a gas powered car. Doesn't it seem strange they are more money then a gas powered car? If they want the country to go to EV's why are they not affordable and why aren't they giving you some discount for trading in your gas powered vehicle?

  • 617722
Reactions:SoulSurfSD
SaveShare
Reply Quote
Like
W
wave1957
Registered

Joined Feb 24, 2008
697 Posts
#22 · 6 d ago

We sadly live in a world of BS...
If the goal was to protect the environment (and it often needs protection!), EVs are certainly not the solution. We are being brainwashed by a bunch of well-connected extremists, fanatics who use the protection of the environment (who could be against that?) to further their ideals.
To go back to the topic of cars, if the goal was to protect the environment and getting the general population onboard with the plan, why not push propane-powered for cars? Millions of taxis use it already, it works, and it is fairly easy to adapt our current (or older) cars; it even used to be fairly popular in Europe, 20 or 30 years ago. And then, there are now synthetic fuels being developed (by Porsche, for instance), they do not emit any greenhouse gases! They will be the way to go for passenger planes, but they are being ignored for cars... Strange...
What the h... is going on?...

  • 617723
Reactions:cozwurth and SoulSurfSD
SaveShare
Reply Quote
Like
V
vpd66
Registered

Joined Dec 3, 2010
329 Posts
#23 · 6 d ago

wave1957 said:
We sadly live in a world of BS...
If the goal was to protect the environment (and it often needs protection!), EVs are certainly not the solution. We are being brainwashed by a bunch of well-connected extremists, fanatics who use the protection of the environment (who could be against that?) to further their ideals.
To go back to the topic of cars, if the goal was to protect the environment and getting the general population onboard with the plan, why not push propane-powered for cars? Millions of taxis use it already, it works, and it is fairly easy to adapt our current (or older) cars; it even used to be fairly popular in Europe, 20 or 30 years ago. And then, there are now synthetic fuels being developed (by Porsche, for instance), they do not emit any greenhouse gases! They will be the way to go for passenger planes, but they are being ignored for cars... Strange...
What the h... is going on?...
Click to expand...
My uncle is a chemical engineer and is working for a company that is developing a biofuel made from animal fat here in the US. He says it is a lot less of a carbon foot print then an EV. I'd be willing to bet it never makes it to market. So sad how only certain technology makes it to market and the rest goes dead. Its all politics follow the money!


SaveShare
Reply Quote
Like
[IMG alt="ekimneirbo"]https://www.hotrodders.com/d1/avatars/m/435/435705.jpg?1614964138[/IMG]
ekimneirbo


Yesterday's petrol world is pretty much standing still, while today's ev world is full of exciting developments.
And who can beat a 5000+lb. production sedan that get's to 60 in under 2 seconds? 😄
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
227 Posts
China can ban gasoline and make EVs all they want. Their communists. I'm American. Over a hundred years ago there were gasoline powered vehicles, there were steam powered vehicles, there were electrical vehicles. Gasoline worked out best for the market. It lets us travel around our country as we see fit.

Europe is made up largely of countries that have been there hundreds of years and were pretty well developed before the automobile came along, and Japan is an island nation - both of these markets have a greater need for cars to be compact than in America. I just want to buy what works for me for my own circumstances.

Want me to burn less gas? How about figuring out the timing of traffic lights so I don't have to stop every 500 feet. How about not taking away road capacity for barely used bicycle lanes and creating more congestion. How about not driving new car prices into the same range as house prices so I can buy a passenger car for daily use and a pickup truck for when I need a pickup truck instead of making me buy a pickup truck because sometimes I need a pickup truck, but I can't afford a second vehicle so I have to use the pickup truck for everything.

It's more credible to me that this is about compressing population into urban areas where Democrats feel they have a political advantage. Climate change is the same thing that I've been seeing rebranded continuously throughout my life - in my experience, climate changes. That's pretty much how it goes.

My kids are going to buy into it all anyway, and the marketing ploy seems to have worked, I just hope that gas stations still exist as long as I'm still alive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
ekimneirbo - LOL ~ hint: electric cars do not idle - there's no fuel loss while stuck in traffic
Yes, but the air conditioning does, the heater will if its cold outside, something will power the power steering as cars creep along, the lights if its night time, the power windows and the electric doors if your battery does run down. While the fossil fuel guy is sitting in traffic, his fossil fuel engine IS IDLING..........and recharging the drain on his battery. The EV is just being drained...... Kalifornia, the leader in all the current tree hugger technology already has "brown outs" because they don't have enough electric power........so do people make a choice in whether to air condition their house or charge their car so they can go to work? Yes, I've seen how it works when energy supplies are short. Waited in line to buy gasoline and worked in a government facility where they turned the heat down and we had to run machinery with our coats and gloves on. In the summer time they cut off the plugs on the water coolers (drinking fountains) in the hot machine shops to save power.........but the kept the air conditioners running in their offices. Somehow when all the quoted results don't happen as planned, the average joe sacrifices and the elite don't miss a beat. Just like politicians who pound on their desks about mask mandates and shut businesses down while they eat at expensive restaurants or get their hair fixed at a salon.

I would like to see battery powered vehicles become a reality, but the technology and infrastructure isn't there to sustain it properly yet. Remember that a couple presidents ago they threw money at the solar powered industry and where is it today.............bellyup, thats where. Yes, a knowledgeable individual like yourself can make the technology work well for himself........but multiply your needs by millions and millions of drivers and you have a recipe for disaster. If God forbid, we are ever attacked by any of our adversaries, one of the primary targets will be electrical power companies. With gasoline, it is far more difficult to paralyze a nation. One thing I learned long ago was not to put all my eggs in one basket. As a nation we need to be cognizant that getting rid of all other technology , and placing too much of our needs in one place sets us up for failure.

You have to wonder why work on a US pipeline was stopped and then a similar one for Russia was given a free pass. How much detrimental effect did the Alaskan pipeline create for wildlife?
Yep, at this point its a bunch of ill informed do gooders trying to impose rediculous laws on us. Kinda like the original fraud Al Gore and his plan for carbon emissions. Turns out his lavish mansion and private jet were burning FAR more carbon than the average fossil fuel guys.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,881 Posts
reluctance to go to EV is the same reasoning that we don't all drive little turbo diesels---that was short sighted too
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,319 Posts
I suspect the answer lies in the Tesla Model S Plaid spec sheet.

1-60 in 1.9 seconds
1/4 mile in 9.4 seconds

That’s off the showroom floor so the speak with the option being color selection, no special wheels, no special tires, no special tune.

Not that I’m making a recommendation, but the reality is if you don’t have one of these your going to become familiar with the shape of Tesla tail lights.

Bogie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,579 Posts
I have already voiced on this.

The US military and others will soon be using this little rotary engine.


The thing is small but stupid simple and a much better design. Most importantly it is compact.

This allows you to go full electric with the powertrain to have simplicity. But if you need charge your EV during a ice storm or in the woods then this engine can charge it as long as you have fuel.

This is for stationary charging. Which frankly is where your car spends most of its time.

It is one of those things that will allow a bridge to affordable, reliable EV and EV conversions.

I am all for EV the more of them are running around the cheaper conversions will become.
You can have your 70's ride running electric with a simple setup it is just not cheap right now. When it is I hope other people will embrace the simplicity that electric can provide.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
191 Posts
reluctance to go to EV is the same reasoning that we don't all drive little turbo diesels---that was short sighted too
Its NOT a reluctance to go to EV.........its a reluctance to switch to anything that doesn't have all the consequences accounted for. Just like the Texas icestorm last year, shortsighted burecrats had no plan on how to deal with loss of electrical power during a catastrophe. People weren't just "inconvienced", many actually died. Had many not had fossil fueled vehicles to transport them, many more would have suffered. So when you talk about being "short-sighted", don't point your finger at people who recognize that glowing promises do not usually live up to their billing. When they get their support system worked out, it may be a good thing. Right now, we aren't there yet.
 

·
Gotta love a turbo!
Joined
·
2,672 Posts
Its NOT a reluctance to go to EV.........its a reluctance to switch to anything that doesn't have all the consequences accounted for...
Amen to that! I've switched all my yard gear except my ZT over to electric and it's awesome. But it never leaves my yard, so it's impossible to get stranded hundreds of miles from home waiting on a charge that may or may not be available.

Russ
 
21 - 40 of 58 Posts
Top