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And without power, how do gas pumps work?
Discussed this before.

1 gas station with 1 backup generator can service 100s of ICEs a day during a power outage. I think a lot of gas stations already have emergency power generators.

1 tow truck with 1 generator will spend a minimum of 30 minutes providing a partial charge and you will be stuck with a tow bill. If you make it to a "gas" station that has a generator, you will probably have a long wait when everyone is driving electric vehicles. Remember, all those people who were charging at home will now be heading for the "gas" stations with generators. I doubt that all the other normally available sources for charging will have back up generators.

If you have a generator at home that is powered by "gasoline", you will still need to get to a gas station in order to get enough gas to power it . How much gas for a slow overnight charge? Will gasoline even be available if the stations are charging electric vehicles?

If you have a natural gas powered generator, you probably spent $5000 to be ready for this emergency.

Not everyone has natural gas available or can afford a generator? What do those people do?
 

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Having the freedom to choose for yourself is something I will always support. I may not agree with your choice personally. But I respect that that choice is yours not mine.
Cerial, I'm not saying that people shouldn't have the right to choose,............I agree that everyone should choose what they want. I just think they need to realize the realities of making that choice .

Actually, the EV movement is the one trying to deny people a choice. They want to make ICEs into dinosaurs (pun intended). The bottom line about what I'm saying is that technology has not reached the point where when wars, natural disasters, and even traffic jams occur, we have a viable backup plan. ICEs became the norm because they grew slowly into public acceptance and have a viable support network that grew with it. It was not something that came about thru govt mandate before it was technologically supportable for the masses.
 

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just a few years ago my city was hit by tornado and no gas stations had power for days---the lines at stations 30 miles away were hours long---no cell towers had power---Starbucks had a generator on the roof and was very busy
 

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Mike just detests EVs and he is arguing against them with points that are true to him, but not really based in fact. I respect his opinions, but don't agree with them. A full tank of gasoline will likely get you about 250-350 miles. An EV with a full charge will likely get you.... 250-350 miles. When a natural disaster hits, both cars are screwed, but if you didn't plan ahead for a hurricane, a cold snap, or something else that you had a week to prepare for, the fault isn't the vehicle.
 

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Curtis, I don't dislike EVs so quit making it personal when my comments are ALL FACTUAL. Having a different view of whether something is a wise choice at a point in time does not mean I'm against them. Quite the contrary, I would like to see alternatives to fossil fuels, but not necessarily the elimination of ICEs. Pointing out the facts related to any choice is simply being "realistic". Having an alternative to fossil fuels will harm all the mid-east oil suppliers and their terrorist activities immensely. Fuel prices will drop as demand falls. Why would I not like that?
I can see that people who commute short distances to work and various activities can actually benefit rom an electric vehicle. I don't feel that people who commute long distances to work or for long distance travel will want to deal with the recharging issues that are presented by charging times and charging availability. Pointing those things out, especially when catastrophes happen is simply food for thought. This stuff really does happen. As someone who was without power for two weeks during a winter ice storm that devastated our area, I'm well aware of the hardships that are presented to people. Thousands and thousands of people had to vacate their homes as the cold slowly froze their water pipes and everything else. This happened "BECAUSE PEOPLE RELIED SOLELY ON ELECTRICAL POWER EITHER DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY TO HEAT THEIR HOMES". I feel its unwise to put ones self in a position where they don't have a readily available and reliable alternative.

While I didn't have electric power for two weeks, I did have a couple of those gas heaters that mount on a wall and require no electricity. My house was nice and warm even though the power was out. My son's home is heated geo-thermally, and he has a propane fireplace that works during power outages. He drives 100 miles each day to/from work. He is in a rural area. If he had "ONLY" an electric vehicle he would be in a real bind if another ice storm hit us. No Curtis, simply looking at things realistically for the current state of technology does not mean I'm against them. I will say that I'm against the government trying to ram it down our throats with legislation designed to make cars and gasoline more expensive so we are forced to do something. Think about it........the politicians and save the world morons realize that they can't pass a law requiring the use of electric cars ( and many other things they want to control), so they pass perhiperal laws making things more difficult, more regulated, and more expensive until we gravitate and acquiesce.

One last thing.......anybody heard anything about the Chevy Volt being recalled?
 

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[COLOR=rgb(97 said:

NEW ORLEANS — With power restoration still potentially weeks away for hundreds of thousands of Louisianans, gas shortages wrought by the devastation of Hurricane Ida are sweeping the region, leaving residents hustling for fuel in sweltering and desperate conditions.

Tracking service GasBuddy reports that more than half of service stations in both New Orleans and Baton Rouge were out of gasoline as of Wednesday morning. Others were out of service because they lacked electricity to pump gas.

More than 988,000 Louisiana electric customers remained without power Wednesday after the Category 4 storm ravaged the area on Sunday. Its remnants, now a tropical storm, swept through the Mid-Atlantic overnight, causing isolated flooding in parts of Maryland and a pocket of power outages in Pennsylvania.

Entergy, Louisiana’s largest utility, reported more than 772,000 of its customers were without power, though it had restored service to parts of eastern New Orleans early Wednesday morning. For harder hit parts of the region, company officials said it could take as much as three weeks to restore service.


Joe, thanks for posting that. It actually makes my argument for me...........


So what I read from this is that between 3/4 million and 1 million customers are without any form of electrical power and may be that way for up to 3 weeks. Thats exactly the sort of thing I have been pointing out. So please tell me what ALL those people would do if they all drove electric vehicles.


" half of service stations in both New Orleans and Baton Rouge were out of gasoline"

OK, half of the stations are out of gas......so half of the stations do have gas. Thats better than NONE of the stations or home charging stations have power. Want to guess how long the waiting time would be for a tow truck to show up at your house with a generator? Another thing is that the stations that are "out of gas" are out of gas because people were able to stock up in extra gas cans for their cars and generators. How many electric car owners were able to purchase some "AMPS" ahead of time and store them in their garage? EXACTLY "NONE", thats how many.

" it could take as much as three weeks to restore service."

That means people stuck at home with no power to their charging stations will be there for 3 weeks. On the other hand, those gas stations won't be out of gas for 3 weeks and there will always be some gasoline available somewhere in the city......or suburbs.
 

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You need to get it out of your head they are going to outlaw ICE in the next 5, 10, even 15 years.
Gasoline will be a option for most of our lifetimes.

They may push electric through emmisions mandates.
Ok, look it like leaded fuel. You can still add additives and run valves that need leaded fuel. But there is a reason why the pumps run unleaded.
Ethanol requires less actual gas(oil) so several pumps run a minimum 10% mix. You can still buy whatever fuel you want.

These companies needed a push or they would keep feeding us the same 26mpg car and 16mpg trucks for another 30 years supporting the sale of more gallons.

Electric infrastructure will grow as the need for it grows.

Frankly the states that get flooded, burned, shaken, heated, or have high winds dont have my sympathy. You know these things happen and if you dont want to locally pay for measures to avoid these things thats on you. Now snow in dallas has happened before back in 12 I think. It did not last as long. But was a taste.

Fooding in Louisiana seriously thats a surprise?
When a hurricane hits inland 2 or 3 times a year you either prepare for that, you get out, or you get wet.

Frankly if these states had to increase local taxes to support the local recovery efforts on there own land then fewer people would live in these annual diaster areas.

Now California is a desert, earthquake prone, and on the coast. But through engineering they have adapted to overcome.

We as a nation will overcome a increased electrical need as it is needed. This requirement won't come as a surprise and there will always be alternatives in place.
 

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Decided there really is nothing further that needs saying from my point of view, so i deleted my initial response. Those who wish to rely solely on the availability of electrical power should do so. Those who feel its better not to rely solely on electrical power availabilty and don't want the aggravation of recharging issues and time should take a different route. This is where the old expression "caveat emptor" really fits the situation...............
 

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No one is forcing anything down your throat, Mike. Your assertions are based in fear, not fact, which is why I respectfully disagree. This isn't personal, it's just that you have dominated this thread with illogical propaganda that multiple people have debunked and offered counterpoint which you have emphatically criticized. Glass house, man. Let's hug it out. Long distance high-five.
 

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Curtis, I try to base all my posts on all threads on factual information. As far as I'm concerned, nothing I said has been proven to be incorrect. Time will tell..........

I have seen other subjects you have posted on and I think you put some pretty good stuff out there......but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't have any hard feelings toward anyone who simply disagrees with me. I try to keep my posts objective and not personal.

So here is my concise (as possible) point of view. If you or anyone feels this is incorrect, then provide examples or proof rather than assertions.

1. Electrical Vehicles take more time to refuel. Appx 20/30 minutes for a PARTIAL refueling. (80%) (PITA on long trips) An extended (vacation) drive may require multiple time consuming stops.
2. To refuel an Electric Vehicle 100% requires slow charging for the last 20% which takes several hours in addition to the Quick Charge
3. Electric Vehicles are best charged to capacity slowly rather than quickly for long battery life. That can take 24 hours or more.
4. In order to provide a "quick" charge capability at ones home, the owner will need to have a 220 volt outlet and a 220 volt extension cord. (installation cost probably $500+) Many older homes do ....not have electrical capability to upgrade for the plug.
5. Charging a vehicle at your home with a 110 volt outlet will not bring the vehicle from 20% to 100% overnight with a slow charge.
6. You cannot quick charge with 110 volts.
7. Battery Packs damaged by running over something or driving thru flooded areas are not covered by warranties.
8. When a battery pack has become completely depleted, you cannot easily or quickly get a partial refill without towing.
9. You cannot store battery power in your garage for future needs.
10. You cannot carry extra "fuel" when commuting long distances or in remote areas.
11. Whenever any disaster happens that affects electrical power companies, you cannot recharge your vehicle until the power company makes repairs.
Note: Exception.....Those with enough money to afford natural gas powered generators ($5,000+) will be able to recharge.
Those with gasoline powered generators will be able to store some fuel but may have no way to replenish if outage is very lengthy.
12. Electric vehicles are generally more expensive to purchase.
13. When an electric company controls all the fuel supplies in an area/state, they can control pricing with their virtual monopoly. (Ref: Texas Ice Storm / electrical price escalation)
14. An older ICE powered vehicle can often be repaired and remain viable for years to come, while a need to replace an expensive battery pack could render a perfectly usable vehicle scrap.
(This is not a 100% ICE advantage, because engines/motors do go bad. In an electric vehicle you have both a motor and a battery pack which can fail, and either expense can scrap a vehicle)


Ok, call these points whatever you wish, but this is basically the factors which I feel someone considering purchasing an all electric vehicle should consider before deciding. If anyone feels that any of those statements are incorrect, then take them individually and explain why you disagree. I'm good with that and I respect factual disagreement.

No hard feelings on this end.........:)
 

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Decided there really is nothing further that needs saying from my point of view,
yet you posted again. you are obviously very emotional about ice vs ev. it's a choice plain and simple. some people will choose ice, some people will choose ev. nobody is wrong. i look forward to doing an ev hotrod. my current ev is a 03 club car, it's a great around the neighborhood vehicle, i'd never try to drive it to california, that would be silly, though if i chose to that would be my choice 🤷‍♀️
 

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I will take your respectful response (in italic) and offer counterpoint:

1. Electrical Vehicles take more time to refuel. Appx 20/30 minutes for a PARTIAL refueling. (80%) (PITA on long trips) An extended (vacation) drive may require multiple time consuming stops.
For now, this is true... but if you buy an EV with the intent of driving cross-country, you've made a terrible choice. Newer charging technologies and battery chemistries have already made leaps and bounds in the last 5 years dramatically reducing charging times. Remember the chevy EV1 that they stopped producing in the early 2000s? It had a range of 55 miles and it took 12 hours to charge. Newer EVs have ranges of 350 miles that take 6-8 hours to charge.
2. To refuel an Electric Vehicle 100% requires slow charging for the last 20% which takes several hours in addition to the Quick Charge
Same response as #1. I will also add that this is much like continuing to squeeze the gas nozzle after it has shut off to get the fullest tank possible. Quick charging on most Lithium-based chemistries can now take you to 90% or more charge on bulk/fast. In an ICE vehicle, does it really matter that you squeezed in that extra quart of fuel when it's a week later and you have 5 miles of range versus 10?
3. Electric Vehicles are best charged to capacity slowly rather than quickly for long battery life. That can take 24 hours or more.
This was true 20 years ago, but not today. Newer battery chemistries make incredibly stable cells with thousands of times more charge cycles. I have tried to kill Li-Ion 18650s and I can't. Aside from public perception which will endure for decades, this battery life argument will factually be dead in 10 years. But, just like diesel-haters claiming that diesel is awful because I can see the exhaust, the inaccurate perception will live in people's brains until they die.
4. In order to provide a "quick" charge capability at ones home, the owner will need to have a 220 volt outlet and a 220 volt extension cord. (installation cost probably $500+) Many older homes do ....not have electrical capability to upgrade for the plug.
Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but this installation should cost $200 tops. Even if it costs $1000, if you're purchasing a $35,000-150,000 EV and didn't budget a little for the ability to charge it, shame on the buyer.
5. Charging a vehicle at your home with a 110 volt outlet will not bring the vehicle from 20% to 100% overnight with a slow charge.
6. You cannot quick charge with 110 volts.
#5 and 6 here are not arguments against EV, they're arguments against charging with inadequate voltage. This is like saying you can't fill a gas tank quickly with a turkey baster. Of course you can't.
7. Battery Packs damaged by running over something or driving thru flooded areas are not covered by warranties.
Again, this is not an argument against EVs. No one covers damage under warranty like this. If you get water damage to your battery pack, it's not covered. If you get water damage to your starter in a new ICE car, it's not covered. If you drive over a rock, it doesn't matter if you damage a battery pack or rip a hole in an oil pan, it's not covered. Period. You consistently make arguments that apply to any vehicle, but attribute it to just EVs
8. When a battery pack has become completely depleted, you cannot easily or quickly get a partial refill without towing.
Strongly disagree. Think about how long it takes to get off the hightway, find a gas station, refill, and get back on the road. 10 minutes? From a completely dead battery, a Tesla can get a range of 120 miles in 10 minutes on a fast charger, and 44 miles of range from a 110v slow charge. Given the fact that EV charging stations are very soon going to be more plentiful than gas stations, there will soon be one at every exit. You are also assuming that "dead batteries" will be a rampant problem. When was the last time you ran out of gas? If you're in an EV, how often will you run out of juice? Likely almost never. Does it take longer to do a full charge? Of course. Will it always? Probably not. Does it mean EVs are not viable? Absolutely not. It used to take much longer to fuel a car too. You had to hand crank gasoline up into a sight glass and then use gravity to fill the tank. We fixed that.
9. You cannot store battery power in your garage for future needs.
Sure you can. Millions of homes already do this even though they don't have an EV in the driveway. Battery backups are insanely common, and more and more houses have thousands of watts in solar on top of their roof with a monster battery hanging on the wall.
10. You cannot carry extra "fuel" when commuting long distances or in remote areas.
Sure, you can do that too. My camper van has a LiFePO battery pack with enough capacity (rough math) to drive a Tesla Y about 5 miles, and it's the size of a large briefcase. Plus, I'm not carrying a 5 gallon can of highly explosive gasoline
11. Whenever any disaster happens that affects electrical power companies, you cannot recharge your vehicle until the power company makes repairs.
Note: Exception.....Those with enough money to afford natural gas powered generators ($5,000+) will be able to recharge.
Or anyone with a gasoline generator and a 5 gallon can of gas. Or anyone with solar/wind power. Or anyone who was smart enough to plug in last night before the disaster hits. Again, you're making arguments that apply to BOTH ICE and EV. You keep mentioning that any gas station with a generator can run the pumps, but they don't exist for a reason. The law. If you lose power and fire up a generator to continue, unless you are a specific type of business, it is not legal. Especially in TX. Those same utility companies who lobbied successfully to completely cornhole TX into being their own grid are the same ones that lobbied for laws that prevent you from using anything but power that is tied into the grid for commercial use. Good job, TX.
12. Electric vehicles are generally more expensive to purchase.
Yup. Just like a Model T was more expensive than a horse. Sure you can buy a used ICE car for $4000 because some of them are 30 years old. EVs are still pretty new and shiny and exotic. In 30 years, ICEs will likely be more expensive than EVs.
13. When an electric company controls all the fuel supplies in an area/state, they can control pricing with their virtual monopoly. (Ref: Texas Ice Storm / electrical price escalation)
When TEXAS screwed THEIR commonwealth by allowing this legislation, it messed up TEXAS. Not everyone lives in TX. I live in PA where I can choose my power company from a list of about 30 that service my area, and if PA's power goes down, we're tied into OH, NY, MD, WV, DE, and NJ.
14. An older ICE powered vehicle can often be repaired and remain viable for years to come, while a need to replace an expensive battery pack could render a perfectly usable vehicle scrap.
This has been addressed before and it's just exactly the opposite. An ICE vehicle is rated by what is called the "B" rating; primarily a B10 and a B50 rating. These are mileages at which a certain engine is considered to be in need (on the average) of a major overhaul/rebuild. For instance, a Cummins ISB has a B10 of 250k and a B50 of 350k. That is to say, at 250k, 10% of ISBs need a rebuild, and at 350k, 50% of them need a rebuild. In it's life, how many oil changes, oil seals, fuel pumps, sensors, coolant system repairs, and other maintenance are needed? Many EVs are proving to need zero maintenance or repairs during these intervals. You also keep talking about this mythical battery pack replacement which just hasn't been an issue on EVs with upwards of 500k on them. Do you really think an ICE is anything more than scrap after 500k? Multiple sources that I listed before all point to the fact that EVEN IF YOU DID NEED a battery replacement, an EV is still cheaper to maintain than an ICE for the same mileage.

I just don't understand your arguments. You make some valid points... none of which render EVs illogical, impractical, or a dumb idea. It's simply an option. If you live in Alaska where you don't have access to charging stations, don't get an EV... but don't buy a Corvette either or you can only drive it two months out of the year. If you are driving somewhere and you run out of juice, you're just as screwed as if you run out of gas. You're both waiting for a support vehicle. In the case of EV, you're waiting for a 10 minute jump from a tow truck. In the case of gas, you're waiting for a support vehicle to retrieve gasoline for you. Either way, you're probably waiting 45 minutes for the tow truck, so who cares if it takes 2 minutes or 10 minutes to get the same range and back on the road?

You purchase the vehicle that suits you. Period. You keep mentioning things like "EVs are not good at fording rivers." So don't use them to cross rivers. Going off-roading? Don't buy a Camaro. Autocrossing? Don't buy a Jeep. If you live somewhere that EVs make sense and your driving needs fit with what an EV offers, great. But your fears about EVs suddenly running out of juice on a long trip, or needing expensive batteries and motors are just unfounded.
 

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if you run over something and damage your car, full coverage insurance will pay for it, minus the deductible, just like any car
 

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if you run over something and damage your car, full coverage insurance will pay for it, minus the deductible, just like any car

Insurance plans all differ in what they cover and rates vary depending on what they have to cover. Add the liability of a $5000 battery pack to a vehicle and insurance costs for that vehicle will likely be higher. As cars age, usually people carry minimal coverage on their own vehicle and most coverage on liability. Then there is always the "deductable" if you kept the insurance coverage. In any case the owner of an electric vehicle should expect his insurance costs to be higher than a vehicle without a $5000 battery, In any case you are expecting the general public to protect themselves, and that won't happen. Look how many cars break down and are towed and never reclaimed by the owners.

Had some incidents in front of my house two months ago. Where I live there is a hill that crests just after my driveway. Police had a guy stopped down the hill. No drivers license so I assume no insurance. Towed his car. While this was going on 2 motorcycles came over the hill, saw the police and whipped into my driveway to evade passing the police down the road. Its 10:30 at night. My drive alarm goes off and I go outside to see who is in my drive. Concurrently my neighbor saw/heard them and called the police. The drunken bikers explained that one of them had lost his license and no insurance. Shortly they left and went the other way. While this was going on, the police dispatcher had contacted the patrol officer down the road and he turned around and came to investigate. He stopped his car in the road in front of my house and knocked on my door. While I was talking to him, another car came speeding over the hill (35mph speed limit). The driver saw the police car in the road and whipped to the right to avoid hitting it. She took my 1/4" steel mailbox out by the roots and went thru my front yard and back out into the road before stopping. The pregnant girl was driving her boyfriends car that had insurance.........but she had no license. They never paid for the mailbox and I told the police to just drop it.


A friend/neighbor down the street lives where the road runs uphill and curves. An unlicensed and drunk illegal alien came (probably around 100 mph) down the road late at night. He went across my neighbors yard (uphill) and was launched thru the air. He knocked a wooden fence down and still had enough momentum to fly across the front on another neighbors porch and take out the 3 supporting columns .......without ever touching the porch. Landed ,took out some shrubs went back down the hill and across the road into another yard and hit a van. No insurance either.


In any case, a car that doesn't have a $5000 battery can't have that battery fail and doesn't need insurance that covers it.
 

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Insurance plans all differ in what they cover and rates vary depending on what they have to cover. Add the liability of a $5000 battery pack to a vehicle and insurance costs for that vehicle will likely be higher. As cars age, usually people carry minimal coverage on their own vehicle and most coverage on liability. Then there is always the "deductable" if you kept the insurance coverage. In any case the owner of an electric vehicle should expect his insurance costs to be higher than a vehicle without a $5000 battery, In any case you are expecting the general public to protect themselves, and that won't happen. Look how many cars break down and are towed and never reclaimed by the owners.

Had some incidents in front of my house two months ago. Where I live there is a hill that crests just after my driveway. Police had a guy stopped down the hill. No drivers license so I assume no insurance. Towed his car. While this was going on 2 motorcycles came over the hill, saw the police and whipped into my driveway to evade passing the police down the road. Its 10:30 at night. My drive alarm goes off and I go outside to see who is in my drive. Concurrently my neighbor saw/heard them and called the police. The drunken bikers explained that one of them had lost his license and no insurance. Shortly they left and went the other way. While this was going on, the police dispatcher had contacted the patrol officer down the road and he turned around and came to investigate. He stopped his car in the road in front of my house and knocked on my door. While I was talking to him, another car came speeding over the hill (35mph speed limit). The driver saw the police car in the road and whipped to the right to avoid hitting it. She took my 1/4" steel mailbox out by the roots and went thru my front yard and back out into the road before stopping. The pregnant girl was driving her boyfriends car that had insurance.........but she had no license. They never paid for the mailbox and I told the police to just drop it.


A friend/neighbor down the street lives where the road runs uphill and curves. An unlicensed and drunk illegal alien came (probably around 100 mph) down the road late at night. He went across my neighbors yard (uphill) and was launched thru the air. He knocked a wooden fence down and still had enough momentum to fly across the front on another neighbors porch and take out the 3 supporting columns .......without ever touching the porch. Landed ,took out some shrubs went back down the hill and across the road into another yard and hit a van. No insurance either.


In any case, a car that doesn't have a $5000 battery can't have that battery fail and doesn't need insurance that covers it.
This is why when I get a house my mailbox will likely be supported by a substantial steel post filled with concrete. ;)
 

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First, I'd like to say that your response was well done.



Ekimneirbo
1. Electrical Vehicles take more time to refuel. Appx 20/30 minutes for a PARTIAL refueling. (80%) (PITA on long trips) An extended (vacation) drive may require multiple time consuming stops.

Curtis
For now, this is true... but if you buy an EV with the intent of driving cross-country, you've made a terrible choice. Newer charging technologies and battery chemistries have already made leaps and bounds in the last 5 years dramatically reducing charging times. Remember the chevy EV1 that they stopped producing in the early 2000s? It had a range of 55 miles and it took 12 hours to charge. Newer EVs have ranges of 350 miles that take 6-8 hours to charge. (I Agree)

Ekimneirbo
2. To refuel an Electric Vehicle 100% requires slow charging for the last 20% which takes several hours in addition to the Quick Charge

Curtis
Same response as #1. I will also add that this is much like continuing to squeeze the gas nozzle after it has shut off to get the fullest tank possible. Quick charging on most Lithium-based chemistries can now take you to 90% or more charge on bulk/fast. In an ICE vehicle, does it really matter that you squeezed in that extra quart of fuel when it's a week later and you have 5 miles of range versus 10?
( I stand by my original comment. The point is that "current" technology requires hours of charging to reach full capacity.)

Ekimneirbo
3. Electric Vehicles are best charged to capacity slowly rather than quickly for long battery life. That can take 24 hours or more.

Curtis
This was true 20 years ago, but not today. Newer battery chemistries make incredibly stable cells with thousands of times more charge cycles. I have tried to kill Li-Ion 18650s and I can't. Aside from public perception which will endure for decades, this battery life argument will factually be dead in 10 years. But, just like diesel-haters claiming that diesel is awful because I can see the exhaust, the inaccurate perception will live in people's brains until they die.

Here is what Electrec says as of July 2021 This is for a Tesla.


Tesla charging methods
In order to truly understand how long it may or may not take to charge your Tesla, we want to start with a brief course on the different charging levels and how they differ. This is a huge factor relating to the time it will take to charge your EV, regardless of whether it is, in fact, a Tesla or not.

Level 1 AC Charging
Imagine Level 1 as the universal charging option.
If there is a standard wall socket nearby, you will be able to charge your Tesla with that. With that said, 120V is the bare minimum amount of juice you can pull into your EV. So if you’re wondering how long it would take to charge your 2021 Tesla Long Range Model 3, you’re looking at a matter of days, not hours. Not ideal.

Level 2 AC Charging
Level 2 chargers are the most common type found at third-party public charging stations, although DC fast chargers continue to expand their presence (more of them in a minute). At home, 240V plugs usually offer around 40 amps but can go as high as 80 and are usually more specifically placed compared to standard 120V outlets. (8-12 Hours see reference below)

Think of this charger as the equivalent to your dryer or other large appliance. Tesla suggests owners install a Level 2 charger in their home or garage if they can. This is fairly easy for an electrician or specialist to come and install.

At Level 2, you’re looking at much quicker speeds compared to Level 1. We’re talking hours, not days. (8-12 hours)

  • Level 1 AC (120V outlet at home): 20-40 hours
  • AC Level 2 (Third party chargers/Tesla chargers/Tesla home charger): 8-12 hours
  • Level 3 DCFC (Tesla Supercharger): 15-25 minutes

Note: The Tesla Supercharger requires 460 volt electric source so would only be available commercially and not at your home.

So as of July 2021 this is the current status of charging per Electrek . Here is the website if anyone wants to see where this info came from.



Ekimneirbo
4. In order to provide a "quick" charge capability at ones home, the owner will need to have a 220 volt outlet and a 220 volt extension cord. (installation cost probably $500+) Many older homes do ....not have electrical capability to upgrade for the plug.

Curtis
Not sure where you're getting your numbers, but this installation should cost $200 tops. Even if it costs $1000, if you're purchasing a $35,000-150,000 EV and didn't budget a little for the ability to charge it, shame on the buyer.

Ekimneirbo
Obviously these costs are going to vary depending on the capability of someone to do the job themselves or hire it done. I would expect the components to do the job could be purchased for under $200 depending on the length of the cords needed. If someone has an electric panel in their garage its going to be easier than someone whose electric panel is in their house. So I would expect $200 to be with someone who has a panel in their garage and is doing it themselves.


Ekimneirbo
5. Charging a vehicle at your home with a 110 volt outlet will not bring the vehicle from 20% to 100% overnight with a slow charge.
6. You cannot quick charge with 110 volts.

Curtis
#5 and 6 here are not arguments against EV, they're arguments against charging with inadequate voltage. This is like saying you can't fill a gas tank quickly with a turkey baster. Of course you can't.

Ekimneirbo
So, are you saying that you consider 110 volts to be inadequate voltage for charging?
The Electrek Reference above says that complete charging with 240 volts can take 10-12 hours.


Ekimneirbo
7. Battery Packs damaged by running over something or driving thru flooded areas are not covered by warranties.

Curtis
Again, this is not an argument against EVs. No one covers damage under warranty like this. If you get water damage to your battery pack, it's not covered. If you get water damage to your starter in a new ICE car, it's not covered. If you drive over a rock, it doesn't matter if you damage a battery pack or rip a hole in an oil pan, it's not covered. Period. You consistently make arguments that apply to any vehicle, but attribute it to just EVs

Ekimneirbo
Curtis, the point is that a battery pack costs say $5,000 and simply running over a railroad track or a possum in the road could ruin it. Most any part that could be damaged on an ICE is likely to be way less expensive to repair. Worst case scenario, someone damages their oil pan and the oil leaks out. They have a guage or a light to warn them before they do serious damage to the motor. Today, most cars have an oil pressure sensor that will tell the computer to shut the engine off if it gets below a certain pressure.
If you rip a hole in a battery pack, there is nothing to tell you there is a problem and the cost of replacement can often be enough to scrap the vehicle. So, yes warranties do not cover component failure caused by road damage in either vehicle, but an ICE does not have the most expensive component on the vehicle located at the most vulnerable location.


Ekimneirbo
8. When a battery pack has become completely depleted, you cannot easily or quickly get a partial refill without towing.

Curtis
Strongly disagree. Think about how long it takes to get off the hightway, find a gas station, refill, and get back on the road. 10 minutes? From a completely dead battery, a Tesla can get a range of 120 miles in 10 minutes on a fast charger, and 44 miles of range from a 110v slow charge. Given the fact that EV charging stations are very soon going to be more plentiful than gas stations, there will soon be one at every exit. You are also assuming that "dead batteries" will be a rampant problem. When was the last time you ran out of gas? If you're in an EV, how often will you run out of juice? Likely almost never. Does it take longer to do a full charge? Of course. Will it always? Probably not. Does it mean EVs are not viable? Absolutely not. It used to take much longer to fuel a car too. You had to hand crank gasoline up into a sight glass and then use gravity to fill the tank. We fixed that.

Ekimneirbo
If my gasoline powered vehicle breaks down 1/4 mile from an exit, I can walk to the exit and buy a can and some fuel.
If my electric powered vehicle breaks down 1/4 mile from an exit I CANNOT walk to the exit and buy anything to help it except a wrecker.
Most of the time niether vehicle will break down where there is a convenient or even an available refueling station, but I can carry extra fuel if I know I may be in a bad location.


Ekimneirbo
9. You cannot store battery power in your garage for future needs.

Curtis
Sure you can. Millions of homes already do this even though they don't have an EV in the driveway. Battery backups are insanely common, and more and more houses have thousands of watts in solar on top of their roof with a monster battery hanging on the wall.


Ekimneirbo
Adapting any power stored at home and then transferring it in a usable manner stored in someones vehicle is beyond the ability of most people and would be very expensive even if someone could find a way.


Ekimneirbo
10. You cannot carry extra "fuel" when commuting long distances or in remote areas.

Curtis
Sure, you can do that too. My camper van has a LiFePO battery pack with enough capacity (rough math) to drive a Tesla Y about 5 miles, and it's the size of a large briefcase. Plus, I'm not carrying a 5 gallon can of highly explosive gasoline

Ekimneirbo

Be realistic, people are not going to spend money for a backup like that. Now they will be willing to buy a 5 gallon gas can, or already have one on hand.

Ekimneirbo
11. Whenever any disaster happens that affects electrical power companies, you cannot recharge your vehicle until the power company makes repairs.
Note: Exception.....Those with enough money to afford natural gas powered generators ($5,000+) will be able to recharge.

Curtis
Or anyone with a gasoline generator and a 5 gallon can of gas.


Ekimneirbo
So since this person hates fossil fuels, why would he have gasoline on hand? Why doesn't he hook up to his wind powered outlet during the hurricane, or his solar powered outlet on a rainy day?
How long will his 5 gallons power the generator if it takes 24 hours to just charge his car? Will he be able to operate his refrigerator and house lights as well?



Curtis

Or anyone with solar/wind power. Or anyone who was smart enough to plug in last night before the disaster hits. Again, you're making arguments that apply to BOTH ICE and EV. You keep mentioning that any gas station with a generator can run the pumps, but they don't exist for a reason. The law. If you lose power and fire up a generator to continue, unless you are a specific type of business, it is not legal. Especially in TX. Those same utility companies who lobbied successfully to completely cornhole TX into being their own grid are the same ones that lobbied for laws that prevent you from using anything but power that is tied into the grid for commercial use. Good job, TX.

Ekimneirbo
As we speak, there are gas stations providing fuel to cars in New Orleans and New York in the wake of power outages caused by Herricane Ida and the flooding it produced. They certainly are getting power from somewhere and they are fueling hundreds of vehicles at each station. Think about it.............If you have cars lined up for gasoline and each car takes maybe 5 minutes, then if you are 12th in line you will be there 1 hour. If you are refueling electric vehicles and you are 3rd in line you will be there at least 1 hour. I have never ever heard of any business being cited for running a generator during a power outage.


Ekimneirbo
12. Electric vehicles are generally more expensive to purchase.

Curtis
Yup. Just like a Model T was more expensive than a horse. Sure you can buy a used ICE car for $4000 because some of them are 30 years old. EVs are still pretty new and shiny and exotic. In 30 years, ICEs will likely be more expensive than EVs.

Ekimneirbo
I bought a 2017 Honda Pilot and then a 2019 Rav loaded to the hilt. Both of them cost less than one Tesla.

Ekimneirbo

13. When an electric company controls all the fuel supplies in an area/state, they can control pricing with their virtual monopoly. (Ref: Texas Ice Storm / electrical price escalation)

Curtis
When TEXAS screwed THEIR commonwealth by allowing this legislation, it messed up TEXAS. Not everyone lives in TX. I live in PA where I can choose my power company from a list of about 30 that service my area, and if PA's power goes down, we're tied into OH, NY, MD, WV, DE, and NJ.


Ekimneirbo
Virtually all states have the ability to buy power from other states, but this doesn't mean that power will always be available when you need it. Look at California .........they can't even get enough power to run their air conditioners and they have brownouts and rolling blackouts. You can shrug it off , but there are always will be power outages for extended periods.


Ekimneirbo
14. An older ICE powered vehicle can often be repaired and remain viable for years to come, while a need to replace an expensive battery pack could render a perfectly usable vehicle scrap.

Curtis
This has been addressed before and it's just exactly the opposite. An ICE vehicle is rated by what is called the "B" rating; primarily a B10 and a B50 rating. These are mileages at which a certain engine is considered to be in need (on the average) of a major overhaul/rebuild. For instance, a Cummins ISB has a B10 of 250k and a B50 of 350k. That is to say, at 250k, 10% of ISBs need a rebuild, and at 350k, 50% of them need a rebuild. In it's life, how many oil changes, oil seals, fuel pumps, sensors, coolant system repairs, and other maintenance are needed? Many EVs are proving to need zero maintenance or repairs during these intervals. You also keep talking about this mythical battery pack replacement which just hasn't been an issue on EVs with upwards of 500k on them. Do you really think an ICE is anything more than scrap after 500k? Multiple sources that I listed before all point to the fact that EVEN IF YOU DID NEED a battery replacement, an EV is still cheaper to maintain than an ICE for the same mileage.

Ekimneirbo
Virtually no one expects ANY commuter vehicle to last 500,000 miles.


Curtis
I just don't understand your arguments. You make some valid points... none of which render EVs illogical, impractical, or a dumb idea. It's simply an option. If you live in Alaska where you don't have access to charging stations, don't get an EV... but don't buy a Corvette either or you can only drive it two months out of the year. If you are driving somewhere and you run out of juice, you're just as screwed as if you run out of gas. You're both waiting for a support vehicle. In the case of EV, you're waiting for a 10 minute jump from a tow truck. In the case of gas, you're waiting for a support vehicle to retrieve gasoline for you. Either way, you're probably waiting 45 minutes for the tow truck, so who cares if it takes 2 minutes or 10 minutes to get the same range and back on the road?

You purchase the vehicle that suits you. Period. You keep mentioning things like "EVs are not good at fording rivers." So don't use them to cross rivers. Going off-roading? Don't buy a Camaro. Autocrossing? Don't buy a Jeep. If you live somewhere that EVs make sense and your driving needs fit with what an EV offers, great. But your fears about EVs suddenly running out of juice on a long trip, or needing expensive batteries and motors are just unfounded.

[/QUOTE]


Ok, Curtis.......I think we had a good exchange of viewpoints. I'm sure anyone reading this should have some food for thought. Thanks for the input..............
 

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This is why when I get a house my mailbox will likely be supported by a substantial steel post filled with concrete. ;)
Best to not do this.
In our "happy to sue you" world if say someone was to get injured from hitting your steel pole vs a wooden one that would break then you may be out more more then the cost of a 6x6.

I have a 6x6 with a plastic mailbox that has a flag that goes up anytime the door is opened.
Then a row of mature cherry blossoms 10 to 15 feet back that keep people from ever hitting the house.

If I needed to replace the mailbox and post it might be $100.

If I did build something custom it would be a old 8-71 supercharger housing (with opening door) sitting on top of a 6-71 Detroit crank sunk in a foot of concrete. If someone was to hit the thing the crank would flex or pull the entire concrete up. It would not in any way act like a steel post that could hurt someone.

In my younger days I placed a quart of paint with a loose lid on the side of a buddies mailbox that kept getting hit. They smashed the paint can and coated the side of the truck.
We watched them do it and it kept the buddy from throwing a few bullet holes into the kids tailgate.

I would just eat the mailbox cost today though and not mess with the additional liability if someone accidentally hit the thing.


If you don't want a EV then don't buy one.
Simple.
I am 4 automotive projects deep currently. Also another 4 house projects deep. No real need to do a conversion in something old. That will happen in 10 years when todays tech is cheaper/better.

I have a 35 mile commute TO work which is about average. I work 12 to 14 hour days 3 to 5 days a week. My employer is already ok with employees charging off 110 at work.

I do feel more employer's will allow this also.

It allows for you to have a charge and the employer writes the additional (minimal in comparison) expence off a business expense.

It would not surprise me if allowing employees to charge a EV at the workplace did not come with a tax credit. They or the power company could even potentially regulate the charging times to say 4 to 6 hours during non peak times to lessen demand during peak times.

Worst case you get out of work and charge for 20 minutes while eating something or writing a long post like this one on your phone.
 

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If you don't want a EV then don't buy one.
Simple.
I haven't ................but never say never. You never know when someone will make a breakthru on solar power that can keep a vehicle charged.

Putting your statement in reverse.....or "right back at ya"
If you think they are so great at this point in time, why don't you go buy one?
If all of my points are moot and electric is so great already, then why don't you go ahead and sell all your fossil fuel vehicles and go full electric?
Must be some reason(s) why you are holding off.
 
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