[chris3353]

Hello All,

Finally putting the 400m together and #1&3 intake valves look horrible. THe rest all good.

Can not locate adjustable guides for a cleveland head. ANy ford guys out there?

My lifter bores were as ugly as any 400 so i am guessing a core shift is causing it???

Cylinders 6&7 are ok

Chris

#3

#1

 

[ExcellenceAuto]

Following.

 

[chris3353]

EDIT
2&3 look bad,,,,,, Intake 1,4,,5,8 look great

 

[johnsongrass1]

Are the rollers tips canted to the stem as well?
This problem could be in the stud indexing or the rocker cup. You could swap one and see if it’s better.
Your easiest fix is to cut the pushrod guide plate and weld it where you want it.
The stud fix means the stud threads need milled and moved if there room.
if the guide is off or the stud is off then things get more complicated.

 

[chris3353]

Are the rollers tips canted to the stem as well?
This problem could be in the stud indexing or the rocker cup. You could swap one and see if it’s better.
Your easiest fix is to cut the pushrod guide plate and weld it where you want it.
The stud fix means the stud threads need milled and moved if there room.
if the guide is off or the stud is off then things get more complicated.

I went back and looked at the contact, It appears the roller is making full contact. Not canted.... I thought about cutting and welding. I will contact TF in the morning and see if anyone has an adjustable. I would rather send 20$ than cut and weld.

CHris

If anyone ever thinks of building a 400,,,,, Don't. I feel it is throwing good money after bad. If i could have found a donor 460 it would have been the smart move.

 

[ericnova72]

John Kasse won the Engine Masters competition 2 or 3 years runniing using a 400Ford (M) based combination, so they changed the rules to prevent it a 4th year.
It can be a heck of a combination with a 4V closed chamber type cylinder head on it, whether it be iron or aluminum.

I do agree the 460 has more potential, but it was just never all that much is stock form....just like the 351M/400Ford.
Could have been, had Ford ever put a version of the 429 Super Cobra-Jet heads on 460 inches.

i had no luck locating a Cleveland adjustable guideplate a while back. Like Johnsongrass1 posted, slice and weld is the common fix for engines that an adjustable guideplate doesn't exist.

What method are you using to determine goemetry and pushrod length?

 

[chris3353]

John Kasse won the Engine Masters competition 2 or 3 years runniing using a 400Ford (M) based combination, so they changed the rules to prevent it a 4th year.
It can be a heck of a combination with a 4V closed chamber type cylinder head on it, whether it be iron or aluminum.

I do agree the 460 has more potential, but it was just never all that much is stock form....just like the 351M/400Ford.
Could have been, had Ford ever put a version of the 429 Super Cobra-Jet heads on 460 inches.

i had no luck locating a Cleveland adjustable guideplate a while back. Like Johnsongrass1 posted, slice and weld is the common fix for engines that an adjustable guideplate doesn't exist.

What method are you using to determine goemetry and pushrod length?

I have multiple adjustable push rods for checking length. The 9.600 is almost dead on. at 5.70 lift it rolls perfect across the valve stem.

I guess i will cut and weld. I wish i had a real welding table and not the floor...

Chris

 

[chris3353]

I have have a SBC moment thinking i would cut and spread the guide plate... Not the case with the 400m,,,duh.

I have been on hold with Comp to ask about pushrod wear and no answer.
I will need to widen the slot and then fill the other side with weld to move the pushrod over. I know nothing about hardness of these parts but would the "weld" portion of the guide eat the pushrod? I would grind and buff it, the pushrods are hardened. Am I making a problem for myself?

Chris

 

[ericnova72]

You can't mess with the pushrod slot section, leave that alone or you screw up the heat treat and create a worse wear situation.

Cut the web between the two stud locations, oval the stud hole to get enough movement if necessary with a dremel/die grinder and stone bit or small sanding drum.....fit-up and tack weld on the head.
Doesn't need a solid bead across the plate, just a couple tack welds to hold it from moving when the rocker studs are tighten back into the head casting.

Are you using Mid-Lift method to determine rocker geometry, or some other method?

 

[ekimneirbo]

First of all, I haven't worked on a Ford engine in years, so don't remember what the guide holes look like. Might want to snap a picture looking downward with the pushrods in place. I wouldn't think the studs would be off location, so I'm guessing that some pushrods may be rubbing the casting and that is holding them off location. You might need to grind the pushrod holes in the heads slightly to allow proper alignment with the rocker arm. That might make your guideplates usable. I would consider contacting Trick Flow and asking one of their technicians about it. Anyway, since I can't see it first hand, thats my guess..........

 

[chris3353]

First of all, I haven't worked on a Ford engine in years, so don't remember what the guide holes look like. Might want to snap a picture looking downward with the pushrods in place. I wouldn't think the studs would be off location, so I'm guessing that some pushrods may be rubbing the casting and that is holding them off location. You might need to grind the pushrod holes in the heads slightly to allow proper alignment with the rocker arm. That might make your guideplates usable. I would consider contacting Trick Flow and asking one of their technicians about it. Anyway, since I can't see it first hand, thats my guess..........

Some are very close, I doubled a straw and through the range f lift I can still slide the straw through the hole.

2 straws = .018"

 

[chris3353]

You can't mess with the pushrod slot section, leave that alone or you screw up the heat treat and create a worse wear situation.

Cut the web between the two stud locations, oval the stud hole to get enough movement if necessary with a dremel/die grinder and stone bit or small sanding drum.....fit-up and tack weld on the head.
Doesn't need a solid bead across the plate, just a couple tack welds to hold it from moving when the rocker studs are tighten back into the head casting.

Are you using Mid-Lift method to determine rocker geometry, or some other method?

Eric,
I dykum the valve stem and then rotate the asssembly. I then go by the mark left by the rocker tip.

 

[BogiesAnnex1]

Sometimes you just have to cut and weld.

Bogie

 

[ericnova72]

Eric,
I dykum the valve stem and then rotate the asssembly. I then go by the mark left by the rocker tip.

But what is your main objective.....pattern centered on the tip??
Or pattern with narrowest width(sweep)??

 

[ekimneirbo]

From looking at the pictures of the rocker arm, is the one sitting off center of the valve stem movable to the center of the valve stem when the guide plates are NOT in place? OR is it just pushed to the side when the guide plate is installed?

 

[lmsport]

try some different brand guideplates

 

[BogiesAnnex1]

Or use a self guiding rockers and no guide plates. By sure that push rods do not contact structures of head or block.

Bogie

 

[chris3353]

But what is your main objective.....pattern centered on the tip??
Or pattern with narrowest width(sweep)??

Eric,
I am not understanding. Obviously I would like it to be in the center with the least travel.

At 9.600" length, the poly lock is close to the rocker than i like but not touching. The rocker tip is just shy of center on the valve stem. As I rotate through a full lift, (5.700) the rocker ends up just past the center of the valve stem. I would have like to used a ~9.700 rod but at full lift i feel the rocker is farther "south" on the stem than i like. Not sure how else to measure it and get a better result?

Chris

 

[ericnova72]

If the roller tip is starting on the inboard side(intake manifold side of head) from center on the valve tip, crossing center, and ending up on the outboard side(ehaust manifold side of head) of stem center at full lift.....then pushrod is too short.
Ideal travel of the roller tip is start inboard, travel across center to just outboard at 1/2 lift(.285" for you) and travel back inboard of center at FULL lift.
This creates the narrowest sweep pattern. if it is slightly off center is not a big issue as long as it stays on the middle half of the stem tip.

Here's a good method, good video of how it's done correctly:

Push Rod Geometry for Engines - YouTube

 

[chris3353]

Agreed, When I ordered these it was one of the few options available in stock. and .650 would serve me better. I just went back to Summit and checked and looks like there are .650 and .700 available.

My problem is I can not get the trunnion at 90 degree to the retainer. Ether it is the angle/length of the rocker or the length of the stud.

The rockers are comp ultra magnums 1.73 and the studs are whatever 7/17 TF s

IN the attached pic the polylock has a total of three turns. It is not enough to run the motor safely but i wanted to show that i am no where near 90 degrees at 50% lift (.285)

I will call comp and TF