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Let me try to explain something about the two filler coats ......I cant do it...
Two coats of Filler ? Sure,but its only half way there, its only taken to 80... after that I use two coats of EZ sand so that's 4 coats and taken to 320 before I prime. if your sanding your bondo with anything finer than 80 your really wasting your time.I'll block it out with 80 then polish it off with a quick 180 to smooth out the majority the sharpness of the 80 scratches...The 180 wont straighten filler well, it will straighten the EZ sand putty though , sand that with 180 up to 320 and you'll amaze yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter #42 (Edited)
This is where I started. It seems to cover really well but probably should go to the edges. I'm definitely taking too much off to start with...... I'm seeing a lot of metal before I stop when I should see very little. All of this should be feathered. I hit this with 36 to shape it.....maybe 80 instead

See how rough it is.....I'm always trying to make it perfect and dragging holes in it because it's setting and I'm still working it

image by -glhxturbo-
 

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You can also try guide coating your bondo and especially your putty I use cheap dollar store black sprayed very very lightly ,more of an overspray type look. this will help you a ton.
 

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This thread is painful to read because it brings back many painful memories before I figured it all out, and then it's painful to read because it doesn't need to be this way...the way you're doing. You're making it WAY to hard on yourself.

These guys here have suffered through my problems with me...they helped me...and then they all saw what my car came to be after it all came together. So I want to make a few points...

First of all, the most expensive does not translate to the best. You're paying a premium on that Rage filler, and it's all ending up on the floor. There are cheaper alternatives that are just as good, such as Marson Platinum. And for sandpaper, Indasa is great.

But first thing is first. Probably one of the most valuable lessons I ever learned here, and my filler work got better overnight just because of this. I used to spread filler and say 'I'll just come back out tomorrow and sand it.' Big mistake. What they got me to do here was block the filler down before it sets completely up. This is a FINE LINE...it will still feel tacky, but if it's at just the right spot it will not clog the paper but sand off in big powdery dust. If it clogs, give it a few more minutes; it needs to kick more. If it's too set up, then it will sand off in a fine dust.

The benefit to sanding it off before it completely sets up (big powdery dust) is your cutting FAST, and that's what you want to get it straight and flat. But that's only half of it...the second key is to use a HARD block and FRESH, SHARP paper. The goal is to cut as fast, hard, and straight as possible. I have a 16" 3M hookit block, completely rigid, no flex whatsoever, and uses hookit paper strips. They're expensive, but last a long time and cut real well. The rigid block ensures that there is no give in the block itself.

The next important part is to not actually put any weight on the block. Just let the mechanical action of the sandpaper do all the work. I start my cut with 80 grit, but if it's an ugly spread with lots of crap to remove, I'll start with 40. Then block over the 80 with 180 or 220.

The other area where you can save yourself time is to just guidecoat the filler and block. No sense in priming only to find out you still had low spots. Guide coating the filler will reveal any low spots.

Stop sanding when you start to sand through to the substrate below, and apply another layer of filler. Eventually you'll continue to build up the low spots and then everything will sand flat evenly.

When my body instructor looked at my 67 Mustang for the first time before I did anything to it, he couldn't believe how wavy it was and said I was in for a fun treat. Well today I'm here to tell you that car is about as straight as a razor, and it's sprayed with a very unforgiving, metallic blue with a show clear. I will confess, I used 3-4 coats of Slick Sand on all the panels except the fenders and I think that was ultimately what allowed me to get it so straight.
 

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I remember that ,Lizer was a tough case.If that was me I might have given up but he kept at it and in the end was successful. he would still remember the valuable things that made a big difference for him, things we forget but do without thinking ,like the sanding bondo while soft. So lizer has a lot to say that could make everything come together for you. I use Z-grip at about 30.00 a gal its thicker than Rage but I can soup it up with EZsand and vice versa I can thicken up the EZ putty by adding a touch of filler. You cant thicken rage. or any bondo for that matter so if its too soupy your stuck with it. I like the thicker stuff but its all personal preference, if you run out of Rage you might give the Z-grip a try and see if it suits you better...I couldn't say one way or another what the other fillers are like because I've been using the Z for so long I cant remember them.
 

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This is where I started. It seems to cover really well but probably should go to the edges. I'm definitely taking too much off to start with...... I'm seeing a lot of metal before I stop when I should see very little. All of this should be feathered. I hit this with 36 to shape it.....maybe 80 instead

See how rough it is.....I'm always trying to make it perfect and dragging holes in it because it's setting and I'm still working it

image by -glhxturbo-
these areas can be troubling for even pros. What I do here is either the 10" block at an angle that's non conflicting with the compound curves AND edging the block by sanding on the edge of the block, which helps in not chopping off areas but leaves you the straight bodywork that the block can provide. For the part with more compound curve I'd use the more rectangular one because it flexes a lot. I'd except that some shallows(natural shape) won't sand out and then blend it all in with a soft block. It will look sharper doing this. Like I said, watch my videos and you might find one of me shaping an area like this. Don't worry about getting better blocks and expecting your work to follow, this has all to do with a lack of experience, not your blocks. Just be persistent and you'll get it.
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
Here is my original dent. I happened to have this photo of it showing it about right because of the rust around it.....all the rust is gone
http://flic.kr/p/kb2k7D

This is the first fill....from what I've seen, this isn't enough filler on there to start with. I sanded that down sprayed it with epoxy and walked out for 2 weeks

image by -glhxturbo-

This is how it sanded the 2nd round. Are these high spots? it was sanded evenly past the showing metal
Filler was done over epoxy. Should they be knocked down.....should I go 3" past those spots with filler?
I sprayed that with epoxy and walked out. 2 weeks later I added filler to it. I put high build on this think it would go away.......it didn't.....it wasn't even close.
http://flic.kr/p/kb4NWw

7" 3m block I'm going to buy.
I was also looking at the 5" or the 11"
The 11" seems like it would bridge the gap better. This dent seems to span even longer than 11"
3m 5441 7" sanding block

This is where I am now....better but still not there....some of this will come off because there is urethane high build under the putty. The filler should be feathered over that metal spot.....I should sand it down and feather it until I break through to metal spots.....unless they are high and need to be knocked down. I'm guessing they....when I sanded past these away from the dent......the metal was the first to show... I've never knocked down a high spot before so I didn't even think about it until the videos
http://flic.kr/p/kw1aLM

When I sand this all back off I'm going to spray epoxy on it again and walk out. Then try to get this right the first time.
I only have that option unless I put this on the metal. At this point I'm ready to do that and seal that with epoxy when the filler is finally level and correct. This learning has been a rough road and cost a lot.
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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It's hard to say if they are high or not, seldom does a dent like that cause brows around it but it's hard to say because generally you would pull on the center while tapping around the dent to bring it out. So that right there may bring it in a bit. But on that particular dent there should be brows to speak of.

It's very hard to make a call on that without feeling it, or better pictures of before the paint was removed.

Soooooo, that being said, they are likely simply being hit more with the sand paper by how you are sanding. It looks to me very simply as too little an area filled and sanding it too much, that is all there is to it to me.

That last photo looks like you could spread a thin skim coat over the whole area going WELL PAST that bare metal, and then LIGHTLY block it down until you BARELY hit that metal and STOP! And you would have it.

Brian
 

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Here is my original dent. I happened to have this photo of it showing it about right because of the rust around it.....all the rust is gone
http://flic.kr/p/kb2k7D

This is the first fill....from what I've seen, this isn't enough filler on there to start with
http://flic.kr/p/kb4V1q

This is how it sanded the first round. Are these high spots? it was sanded evenly past the showing metal
Filler was done over epoxy. Should they be knocked down.....should I go 3" past those spots with filler?
http://flic.kr/p/kb4NWw

7" 3m block I'm going to buy.
I was also looking at the 5" or the 11"
The 11" seems like it would bridge the gap better.
3m 5441 7" sanding block

This is where I am now....better but still not there....some of this will come off because there is urethane high build under the putty. The filler should be feathered over that metal spot.....I should sand it down and feather it until I break through to metal spots.....unless they are high and need to be knocked down. I'm guessing they....when I sanded past these away from the dent......the metal was the first to show... I've never knocked down a high spot before so I didn't even think about it until the videos
http://flic.kr/p/kw1aLM
if you have the durablock set you don't need anymore blocks. Your block set is good enough for what you're trying to do. New blocks isn't gonna get you a better result, but you could get a lot better result with how you use your current blocks.

When I see that pic you posted, if I were fixing it, it would all come off and I'd metal work it better with emphasis on raising the lows (where filler is) while at the same time lowering the brows ( the areas of metal around the filler). Everyone's telling you to sand til metal pokes up, which is true, but only the right thing to do if the metal is indeed where it's intended to be. At this point putting filler on it and sanding til metal pokes up is merely making a "mound" around high spots of metal, which will show up in paint as exactly that. If you metal work it better the mud work will be that much easier. Leaving it metalworked like that is just making more work on the back end, which will follow you thru the primer stage as well. As Martin said, it could be how you blocked and not high spots but to me that clearly looks like a brow. Wouldn't be able to confirm unless I ran my hand across it but if you're not accustomed to the work it most likely is a brow.
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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I'm with you Henry, this is the problem, with a real beginner and with a VERY minor brow spreading the filler out further and blocking it down until it hits metal and stopping is going to leave him with a pretty nice "mound" that is virtually impossible to see when finished.

I am trying to be real here. But you are absolutely right, to be SURE that isn't a brow is the trick to doing it best.

I am looking more at the "bestest" being we aren't there to be fine tune it to the "best".

A very gradual raise to a very slight high spot is a very doable repair on your typical driver. And the learning curve is steep so I am looking at again, being we aren't there is it SOOOOO hard to say. But those spots can simply be metal poking thru because all the filler is sanded out of the middle and they aren't brows at all! I have had to feel body work for years where I work helping them get their car over to the paint shop. I am fascinated at how often even "pros" will simply sand too much. And I have gotten so I can look at the work and know how it's going to feel. I did it as a game of course just looking at something in the parking lot and thinking "that looks high" or "that looks low" and going and feeling it to see if I am right. How the metal also has a sharp edge on the outside is a sign you are very right, it is a high spot. But the thing is when we are talking about a newbe, they don't do things like you and I and can create some very odd happenings. :drunk: If WE sand and hit metal like that we know what it is because of how it was sanded.

Let's exaggerate and say he took an old ND DAQ with 120 on it and sanded that filler down, there is no way we could tell by looking at it whether something was high or low because it wasn't blocked, you know what I mean?

To feel with the precision you can feel to find those microscopic highs and lows takes a lot of experience. To fake it with a wider spread of filler then block down until you hit takes much less experience.:thumbup:

I'm just thinking here, understand, I have clearly said you are correct, I am just looking tossing out something a little different to help him get it done.

Brian
 

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I'm with you Henry, this is the problem, with a real beginner and with a VERY minor brow spreading the filler out further and blocking it down until it hits metal and stopping is going to leave him with a pretty nice "mound" that is virtually impossible to see when finished.

I am trying to be real here. But you are absolutely right, to be SURE that isn't a brow is the trick to doing it best.

I am looking more at the "bestest" being we aren't there to be fine tune it to the "best".

A very gradual raise to a very slight high spot is a very doable repair on your typical driver. And the learning curve is steep so I am looking at again, being we aren't there is it SOOOOO hard to say. But those spots can simply be metal poking thru because all the filler is sanded out of the middle and they aren't brows at all! I have had to feel body work for years where I work helping them get their car over to the paint shop. I am fascinated at how often even "pros" will simply sand too much. And I have gotten so I can look at the work and know how it's going to feel. I did it as a game of course just looking at something in the parking lot and thinking "that looks high" or "that looks low" and going and feeling it to see if I am right. How the metal also has a sharp edge on the outside is a sign you are very right, it is a high spot. But the thing is when we are talking about a newbe, they don't do things like you and I and can create some very odd happenings. :drunk: If WE sand and hit metal like that we know what it is because of how it was sanded.

Let's exaggerate and say he took an old ND DAQ with 120 on it and sanded that filler down, there is no way we could tell by looking at it whether something was high or low because it wasn't blocked, you know what I mean?

To feel with the precision you can feel to find those microscopic highs and lows takes a lot of experience. To fake it with a wider spread of filler then block down until you hit takes much less experience.:thumbup:

I'm just thinking here, understand, I have clearly said you are correct, I am just looking tossing out something a little different to help him get it done.

Brian
a good point is the oversanding. If he did oversand a slight brow WOULD look like a huge one in a pic. You're right though, if it's a small brow it would be easier to mound it slightly as long as it's spread far out beyond to fool the eyes, and wouldn't be too noticeable, which leads me to believe he should take all our advices but first check that brow area to make sure he's not making a pitching mound.
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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a good point is the oversanding. If he did oversand a slight brow WOULD look like a huge one in a pic. You're right though, if it's a small brow it would be easier to mound it slightly as long as it's spread far out beyond to fool the eyes, and wouldn't be too noticeable, which leads me to believe he should take all our advices but first check that brow area to make sure he's not making a pitching mound.
You are absolutely right, stripping it all and REALLY making sure what is high and what is low is the right way.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter #53
Not sure....I could take it all back off and start over. It would take a while before I could put any filler on there.

I do know that the car was straight before and the filler work was decent. The reason I stripped it down was chipping paint......solvent pop everywhere...peeling clear around all the edges.

Basically I bought a junked out production job.....a year later someone hits the car in the fender....which just needed to be replaced. I was peeling back a chip and block of paint started to come off.


two bubbles on the trunk-

Still smelled like wet paint
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Door handle mount
image by -glhxturbo-

Chips like this everywhere
The small spots I sanded to show them
image by -glhxturbo-

Rust under the seam sealer and back window gasket
image by -glhxturbo-
Cheap paint was used.....they started with green and covered it with black
The paint job was a mess. I didnt know what was good and what was bad
I found out the drivers side was good but hit in the quarter panel
The passenger side was all cheap
The hood had small rust spots from chipping paint.....it was a mess
 

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About 35 years ago I taught autobody at a vo-tech school , high school kids , one of the biggest problems I remember was the kids being TOO eager & pressing so hard on the work surface that they were actually deflecting the metal , their work looked alot like your pic... let the abrasive do the work , it's good to not press too hard .
dave
 

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Discussion Starter #55
At this point that is all I want to do.....get it done.

I am going to give it one last try based on all of this. I won't sand it all off. Just down to the point the high build is gone. I have done nothing but watch videos and reread all of this content for the last several days that I'm confident I can get it right with one shot. I've been doing it over and over so I've learned how it behaves quite a bit.

It costs $20 in gas just to go to my shop and another $15 to keep the heat on for the couple of days as cold as it's been. So although I'm confident that i can do it right now. I'm also factoring in.
....I want to sand it all down
I will have to put epoxy over it
I would be driving there tonight just to sand it down and put epoxy on it and that's all....maybe some minor other stuff.


Then waiting till Wednesday and going back to work it. It is tempting to just glaze over it as it's been covered in epoxy already....so in Brian's thinking....just helping me get it done I'm weighing that.

This is my daily driver....I've been driving junk for 11 months with this project working on it 2 to 4 days a month. I am ready to have it back but I do want to learn to do this stuff right for the next one
 

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Discussion Starter #56
I have what seems to be another problem.

My gun with a 1.8 tip failed while I was priming the 2k

I put the 2k in the other gun that I used for epoxy with a 1.4 tip......and found that I had to turn the air pressure way up, the fluid needle backed all the way out and the spray pattern down to 3".....primer not reduced. It was late and I just wanted the high build on there because I had to leave and I didn't want to scuff 6 panels and the entire body to rough up the epoxy. I was going to be out of the recoat window and I wanted good adhesion.

I was told by the manufacturer that I could put high build on top of the epoxy 4 hours after it was sprayed as long as the metal was 70° checked with a laser temp gun. So....I did

I waited 5 hours and kept the heat on before I sprayed the high build.
metal Temp was 80°

I sprayed the high build in the 3" pattern not knowing it was going to come to that texture and small spray pattern...I was adjusting on the fly. It came out textured like 60 grit paper

Eh.....whatever......I'll knock off the rough stuff with a red scotch Brite, guide coat it and block it down. Not a big deal

It may however be a bigger deal that I thought. I blocked the whole car down perfectly even with the first poke through to the metal. Other spots on the car blocked out flat with no texture left at all. I didn't know primer could get pin holes. My low spots are texture craters now.

So now I have flat panels blocked out,,,,,,,with texture filled with dry guide coat.

I was blocking this down for 10 hours cleaning up this mess....it looked smooth until I cleaned it. The dust was filling in the textured surface...When I hit it with the air gun.....it knocked some bigger pin holes and craters in the primer.....like I had busted through a micro thin layer of primer just covering the pin hole.

Do I have to sand all of this out and start over or can I put more primer on top of it and block that down trying to fill in this texture. I have a finish line 4 now and will do some test panels to get it to lay smooth. That will fix the problem with spraying. I was going to do another round with 180 anyway

Will the dry guid coat in the craters ruin adhesion..the air gun won't blow it out
will sprayed guid coat ruin adhesion for high build.

Will high build fill these craters or will it cause problems later. Like bridging then sinking.


On another note I have the same thing with the filler work....I sanded most of that off until I was down to straight filler or epoxy primer.
No high build left like in the pictures... In sanding it all off I noticed pin holes showing up there as well. They were covered with filler before...... I shot air into the area and exposed more pin holes. It needs another 2 rounds of filler from this point. I put 1 coat of epoxy on there and left.
Is it ok 2 put filler over 1 coat of epoxy as opposed to 2....I ran the primer on the first coat. May be 2 weeks before I can get back to it.

Will that 1 coat of epoxy sink in to the 80g scratches on the filler. Even though I'm putting more filler on top of that?
If so ill sand it back off and go direct to metal....I almost did anyway but I thought I'd give it 1 last shot. Tired of messing with the epoxy at this point. It will be fine without the barrier because I'll seal it with epoxy.

Hats off to you guys for going through the learning process.

I'll post pictures on the next post so you can see what I'm talking about. A picture is worth a thousand words
 

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sounds like you didn't blow off your body work enough before priming and they may have been hiding out under dust. Sand as much as you can smoothy as possible then re-shoot. If you feel the primer won't take care of the pinholes dab in some filler with a blade then reprime.Take apart your gun and thoroughly clean it. Adjust your spray patterns on masking paper, not the car.
 

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Discussion Starter #58 (Edited)
Everything you said was done

Body work.....spray air over it and tack rag.

Gun was adjusted on paper. I didn't know spraying very dry like that would create pin holes in the primer. So I put it on there anyway. This tip is too small to shoot high build un reduced 4:1. I replaced the gun with a 1.8 tip.....it's sprays much better and should give me a more even coat

It's almost like the primer was drying in the air before hitting the car. It's textured but also very porous

My concern lies here.....sand it out and create a low panel. Or leave it and primer over it with the guide coat in there. I've already hit the high spots all over this panel. But then there are the weak spots in the primer where it's porous under a thin layer of primer.

I'm just going to start over and take out the texture....then go from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #59 (Edited)
Texture.....this was on the whole car.....a lot of it sanded out. The new low spots are the texture itself.
texture of high build-

Some it's pretty deep. It was sprayed dry. When I shot air over it to clean it out it went through and created pin holes.
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un even-


All the high spots were found and I stopped. I was afraid to spray over the black areas. Primer seems weak. In the long run I don't know how much that would matter....not experienced enough. I've successfully painted several cars but none of them have me problems like this one. Of course I didn't have a gun failure and the high build went on out of a 1.8 tip instead of a 1.4.....and I've never used epoxy primer. I'll admit I haven't made enough mistakes with this stuff. When everything works out you learn nothing.
hood-
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Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
On this end of it......I took off all the glazing putty and high build. I was left with this. I knocked down some high spots and found some low spots.......was very tempted to put put the filler dtm
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Got a lot of pin holes showing after I sanded it down. It was very clean when I layed it on there.
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This is with 1 coat of epoxy. I ran out so I only put on the one coat. And ran the other side. It was 3am and I couldn't wait for more to induce. The whole thing is sanded with 80g....the filler and the metal. The metal should be sanded to 80g
I'm afraid the epoxy on the filler will settle as the rule states that sanding 80 under primer will settle.....but that's high build that I know of......I don't know about epoxy. I could have sanded it to 180g...I didn't know what to do.
.I'm putting more filler right on top filler on top of this ....I'll do the razor blade thing to get it in the pin holes.
Do the pin holes even matter if I'm putting more on top of it? What are the draw backs to having pin holes..and why am I getting pin holes in evercoat rage. How can I avoid them.
Does it being just one coat matter....SPI Says to use 2 coats.......If it's 2 I'll go dtm and take it back off. Then I'll seal it in epoxy. I just don't have time to mess with that stuff anymore.
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I can't believe I ran that like that....I was really tired by is point
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