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Damn dude. You're literally making this a hundred times more difficult than it needs to be. You were spraying a thick primer with too fine of a tip which is why it was spattering.

The pinholes will fill in if you skim over them with more filler or glazing putty. If you're getting pinholes in the filler it's probably due to how you're mixing the filler with the hardener. I don't mix it but smear it across the mixing board, one direction, then pull it back with my spreader the next direction, pressing down with some force to keep it from getting air mixed in.

You're making mistakes because you're trying to rush things and not doing it right. If you don't have a 1.8 tip to spray 2k primer, then don't spray it; you can see what happens. Besides, it's not a big deal to scuff up the epoxy with a red scotchbrite before spraying the 2k if it's out beyond a week. Going over the entire car would take you less than 10 minutes. You shouldn't be running your epoxy or your 2k either. You could be going to slow, fan is too narrow, pressure is too low, holding gun too close, ...some or all of these. Don't spray anything until you can get a nice consistent pattern about 10" tall on a piece of paper holding the gun about 6" away. I have a roll of masking paper that hangs on my wall and I just constantly unroll it as I need more material to do test spray.

Sand your filler finer than 80. Just use 80 to flatten it, but then finish up with 180 or 220. Some guys even go to 320. This will remove a lot of what you are experiencing. You're just not getting it sanded fine enough. The SPI epoxy has little to no shrinkage, and their 2k primer (if that's what you're using) has minimal shrinkage as well, due to the type of solids used.

All this going back down to metal after you've done all the work is nonsense. If you already have one coat of epoxy on, put a second coat of epoxy on later. Nothing sticks to epoxy like epoxy. At least 2 coats on the metal is ideal as corrosion protection with epoxy is directly correlated to mil build. But I personally wouldn't bother taking filler off if you only have one coat beneath it. That alone is still better than the old way of doing it, which is filler over bare metal. Which I have done on my car as well.
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Yeah, for goodness sakes, slow down and do ONE panel at a time!

Brian
 
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put up or shut up
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he must be doing something right cause he's getting frustrated. It's always frustrating at first. Keep plugging away and don't settle and you'll be that much better next time.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
I decided to take it all off for the heck of it to see how it works. I had 4 layers on there with all inconsistent colors meaning some used a lot of hardener and some used the right amount. I was also curious about the boding to the epoxy and how good it is.

The filler was basically welded to the epoxy and the cured epoxy was basically glued to the quarter panel.....the whole thing was more sound that I thought. Which is one of the things I was looking for when I took it all off.

I put 2 good coats of epoxy on there and will be redoing the filler. Probably just one more time.

On another note. This dent is 1/8" deep. Double lined.....on the back side there was a metal plats.....than structure in front of it. Very hard to get to.

A dent this size is Beyoncé my skill level. I have a stud gun but I don't even know where to start with something this big
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Can you post a few photos of this damage? It's going to be very hard to capture a good photo being it's striped and different colors and textures. So take a number of photos along the side of it from the front and rear getting the camera very close to the surface like shooting a photo out across the ocean from the beach. If you can put a straight edge, a bent straight edge if that makes any sense. If you get a metal yard stick for instance you can bend it on it's flat side to any shape right? So bend it to the shape of the quarter by simply holding it tight at one end away from the dent and then pushing in the other end way over on the other side of the dent and it will form a "straight edge" over the dent.

You can't take too many photos from all different angles so we can see what you are working with.

Brian
 

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Discussion Starter #66 (Edited)
I should be going back in a couple of days to spread the filler and let the epoxy cure for a while.

Before I spread it I'll hit it with a ruler and get all those pictures posted.

This is all I have on hand. I ground into that with a cutting wheel to strip it quickly. As I went down into the deepest part i gauged it by sight to be 1/8" deep in the middle of that circle. The transition is so smooth I don't even much feel or see a high spot. Just the ones I knocked down in the previous pictures. They were not high at all

The metal to the left is hard the metal to the right of the circle is not as hard but it also doesn't have the fender flare structure. This dent is very soft and circular.....and large. I wish it still had paint on it. It would be easier.
image by -glhxturbo-

The circle seems very flexible and somewhat weak. I've messed with a large dent like that before on my trans am.
A tree fell on it behind the t tops.
I bought a stud puller thinking with the weak flexible metal it would pull right out. I stuck 4 studs in the middle. Pulled it with a slide hammer.......the metal stretched and just pulled those spots. It may have been because I wasn't knocking down the high spots on the out edges. In those trans ams there is a structure brace under there that prevents from hammer dolly work. We ended up taking it to have it done. He put tons of bondo in there.....in the t top area with no roof structure and the frame not tied together.....the bondo popped out.....we took it out completely the other day. It's the size of a small dinner plate and 1/8 thick.
And that's just that area that popped out. There's is equal size still in there. He basically bondo the whole roof. Like the bmw....the transition is smooth and gradual....no real defined high spots.
So I still have that problem on the trans am to deal with......I was just going to put a new roof on it.

Reason I bring it up is because it's the same type of dent. I could almost take that dinner plate bondo and match the dent to the car I'm working on. I have the equipment a to do this stuff and not the skills to do it.

If I mess with that dent with my stud puller and don't know how......I'll make a mess out of it. I already have run into multiple of those. But that's fine.....body work has a steep learning curve

I had a gallon of evercoat rage extreme. I don't need much more filler but I'm almost out. If I run out......will a quart of rage basic be fine For just this one project. I won't need another gallon so it will just sit there.
I do have a whole jar of glazing putty. Would that substitute if I run out? I won't use anywhere near what I have.

I know the hardener goes bad after a year......does the filler have a shelf life. If not ill use it on the next project and buy another gallon.
 

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The hardner goes bad after a year? I have hardner I've been using for several years. And I have filler that is several years old.

I'd get a quart of the Platinum over the Rage, it's a little better priced. Glazing putty goes on very thin and is best for filling pinholes or skim coating panels. You won't get the build out of it you want.

For your dent removal, you don't work a dent out by starting in the center. You start on the outside of the dent and work it out moving in a spiral pattern from the outside to the inside. However it sounds like the metal in that dent is stretched. Metal can be shrinked by heating it with a torch and then rapidly cooling with a wet rag. Now to shrink you would start in the middle of the dent.
 

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Discussion Starter #68
I wonder if it will pop out on its own when I shrink it. I've done that before and it worked well.

This dent was originally filled in with filler. Maybe the shop that did it either didn't know or.....didn't know.

Or didn't want to take the inside stuff out like the cd changer
 

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Discussion Starter #69
Now that you mention it. I'm pretty sure it's stretched.

I don't care to remove all that stuff to heat it up and try. But I do have 2 nice coats of epoxy on it. If it's too complicated or beyond my skill level at this time I would fill it in. I'm patient but it's my daily driver and I do need it back on the road ASAP. I'd like to get it in black before the humidity hits.

I've been bitten by these dents and never been successful with one

Will get more info and try to figure out exactly what it is
 

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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
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Man you are working hard, TOOO hard. Get those photos so we can figure it out. And YES MEKP hardener can go bad! They have a date code stamped in the bottom of the tube and you want to get the newest you can.

Brian
 

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put up or shut up
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sometimes if a forgotten stretch is on a hood or decklid it's better to just take it down to metal and deal with it (CAREFULLY ON HOODS/DECSKS)cause blocking it in primer will cause you to baby the blocking and you'd be throwing time away anyways. keep the blocking part in mind and how the metal will react to the pressure of a block when deciding whether to leave it or not, and this apart from the obvious high spot it's leaving. If it's surrounded by a bunch of bodylines which will help it hold its ground better that's great, if it's out in a wide open area than run a block on it to see how it reacts when you have primer on it. There's been plenty of times where I said, "no big deal" then once it's in primer I was kicking myself for not dealing with it earlier.
 

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Discussion Starter #72
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When it was filled in with filler they did a good job with all of it. I had no idea it was even there. When I bought the car I looked over it carefully. 3 weeks later I'm seeing bubbles in the trunk surface.

The middle of that is 1/8th deep very smooth transition. No wrinkles or creases. Like someone threw a basket ball at it

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This was prepared by the original repair man......
24 grit direct to metal
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This is exactly how big it spans. It doesn't go past that area. The rest is flat
image by -glhxturbo-

A feathered skin coat would have finished this. I didn't want filler over the high build. Those metal spots were just barely high. They've been knocked down some since. That's as good a bench description as I can get right now
image by -glhxturbo-




That's the nature of this dent. It went up to the body line and touches it. But the body line has no damage at all. I haven't gotten a chance to get a ruler on that yet. Its basically your smooth gradually dished in dent with shallow high spots. The metal is stretched. It doesn't have that popping oil can sound. I know if I pulled on it. It would want to stay dished in instead of returning to its original spot.

I don't know if any of this helps. Knowing what you know about it so far. What does it look like and how should I start trying to get it back out?

Do those suction cup things actually work? It's almost like if I could get a suction cup on there and knock the highs in at the same time it would come back out
I think it's a little late for paint less dent repair :)
 

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it wouldn't hurt to try the suction thing while hitting down the brows. That's actually how you want to work metal. Just doing that will tighten it up a little. Just be sure to get all of the brow with the hope it tightens it up. If that doesn't work to truly fix it you'd have to get to the metal, if that's not an option than just block lightly on it so you don't create more work when it flexes as you block, but yeah, doing the suction cup thing will do something in your favor so give it a try.
 

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Discussion Starter #74 (Edited)
I'm going to try the suction cup route. Maybe fill in the texture with filler to get it smooth enough to grip to.

Then put a cloth on the high spots to protect the epoxy from hammering the highs..... It's a perfect suction cup dent.

Besides the epoxy.....I'm back to the metal. I ground all the filler out
 

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The higher metal you see around the dent is the "splash wave" and is indeed high. A picking hammer will bring it down with a lot of little hits from where it is now or you could use a stud gun without a stud in it to flash heat and cool with a wet rag to shrink it back where it should be or a torch as well though.

 

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Discussion Starter #76 (Edited)
It's a bit deeper than this further down.....
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the body line is straight.
The metal is flexing while the filler was applied, I guess because there is no crown.

Do to inexperience and time constraints....not knowing how to get that panel back out and not being able to get it from the back due to 2 layers of structure .

I have that filler finished right now and it's basically perfect. It took me 10 hours. I kept sanding low and not adding enough filler back. Took a long time before I figured out how to do it. Practice and more practice...I had to go very light so the panel wouldn't flex. I went with what I did know a little about as opposed to what I knew nothing about.
The whole rest of the car is 180 blocked. Also....I figured that a huge hang up was doing this over epoxy. I'm not nearly skilled enough with filler to pull that off......and it showed in the multiple coats and re sands before it was right. There's no way I would have finished it. I need much more practice. I went direct to metal.....the filler won't come off and will be sealed well. It was prepped in 36 x pattern
I also realized the glaze is much thicker than I thought. I used that for some small low spots. After working 24 straight hours including driving time I shot epoxy over it and left. Slept 2 hours and was back at it for another 8.

I still want to know how to take that dent out.....I don't understand it and don't want a mess. I hit it with the suction cup.....it stuck to the panel very well but would not pull it out.


On the compound curve on the other panel. I shaped it by feel,,,,,placing my hand on a lint free cloth and going over the curves. It's perfect as well. Much better than before. Looking back at the filler I took out the first time. The majority of it was fine and the filler over the urethane probably would have been ok.....I don't know. The urethane was cured for a month. There was a time I way over filled this sail panel.....
 

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Tap all high spots down... if its low.. it can be filled... use plenty of guide coat..

When bodywork is finished' ... use metal glaze.. skim coat it... and sand with finer sandpaper.. 180
 

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Most of your problem is in the body line.. I'll try to explain...
anytime you pull a dent you have to start at the bodyline if its distorted or has a slight curve...you HAVE to start by getting that bodyline straight. the primary reason for bodylines is to stiffen the metal so its stronger so if the line has a curve it' makes the rest of the panel curve too. make sense so far??? The way to straighten the line is with a masons chisel a 4" wide chisel should work just fine.You get in the trunk set the chisel on the line and tap it with the hammer while sliding the chisel down the line. check your progress as you go. once the line is straight again THEN you work that dent you'll have a more harmonious outcome this way...
 

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Discussion Starter #80
That makes sense.....but in blocking I'm not seeing any affect on the body line. It's like the damage goes right to it but stopped there at the line.... Do you see any imperfection in the line itself.

Let's say the line were in the middle if the dent. That's where what you are saying with the chisel would really shine? Straighten the line and work the dent?

Where are the high spots? It looks and feels like a smooth transition. I knocked down a lot of high spots that I found with the filler work.....and then tried to pull the dent with the suction cup. It pulled a little in the middle but not on the outsides where the tension is. It came out 1/16 and went back in....So maybe it's still high there. If I were to practice on this..I would knock down those highs more trying to pull the dent and make another dent on each side knocking them down.

De marquess_191
I've tried this on the dart roof in the background.....that's what happened and I made a mess of it. I need a practice panel first to learn how to do this. I've messed with this stuff enough to know it's not a simple process if you don't know what your doing. It takes practice or it takes knowing how to do it in the first place. It's tempting to remove the filler.

The pulling of the dent....It was half effort. Put the cup on.....pull on it and see what happens. Because I knocked those highs down already I figured it might come better than it did. If I saw hope I would have tried to work it...... Ok it's not working even a little and I'm not hammering on this epoxy and re spraying because I'll be set back two weeks. So I started filling. This is a skill building car. But it's my daily driver and I've been driving junk for a year learning this stuff.
I think my heat bill alone in the past 5 months is $600

I have the trashed fender for this car......I'm going to straighten it and beat it up some more to understand metal work. There's 50 hammers....15 Dolly's....spoons....shrinking discs, and many other items......I couldn't tell you why there are 50 hammers. I see them and have no idea why they are shaped the way they are. Why a shrinking hammer looks like a meat pounder etc. metal working is a whole new skill to get proficient at.
 
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