[VWFan]

I have been searching through some of the threads on primer and it seems that the primer color makes quite a difference in the end-result. I am painting the car white and was told that a white primer is best to use, while I agree with this theory I still have a question.

I am trying to stay with the same mfr of product through-out the process. My jobber doesn't carry any white primer??? Can he tint the primer white? I've heard of tinting to match the base color, but can they actually tint it white?

There are no stupid questions, just stupid people who ask questions....

I know this is one of those questions.....

 

[BarryK]

Not a stupid question at all, as a matter of fact you will start seeing more white primer being available. The main reason is the change in white paints (titanium) Dupont now has full control of all titanium sold in the USA and whites are changing no longer cover in one coat so, since white is the most popular color there have been a lot of screaming by body shops as a lot of body shops do not use sealer on a daily basis. White sealer will solve your problem unless your line has a tintable primer. Some do some don't.
Your also seeing more Black primer come on the market in the last six months and if the shop has a gallon of black and a gallon of White primer he can make any COLOR OF GRAY he wants with those two colors IE; like the Value shades by Dupont.

Be careful tinting a 2K primer that is not set up to tint! Yes it can be done but at a risk.

 

[mrcleanr6]

thats how i do it. i always keep a gallon of black and white sealer around. i use black, white or mix the two for different shades of gray. i always use a sealer so it works out great. if worse comes to worse and your paint line doesn't have anything for you then just paint it white first then apply your color.

 

[VWFan]

Well, crud! I went to my jobber last night and he really didn't have anything I could use as a white "primer", so I guess gray it is.... I am sure that this will work fine, I was just hoping for a little more "depth" to my color. I assume can achieve a good amount of depth with 3-4 good clear coats.

Thanks for the replies!!!

 

[BarryK]

He does not have a sealer he can tint white for you, Or a white epoxy, To spray as a sealer before paint??

If he does not, it is really time to kiss that jobber goodbye!

 

[VWFan]

I wonder if I'm asking the wrong questons....

I specifically asked him for white primer or a tintable-white primer...Maybe he does have a sealer in white....I am now assuming these are different?

I am no professional painter....This is my first paint job!

I needed a primer with a good fill in order to be able to block sand down...I think I was asking for a white primer filler, which could be my error.

Sometimes I am really unsure of what I need to ask. The guy is really nice and treats me really well, he even gives me the "body-shop price"...Whatever that means...From shopping around I think he's treating me good, I just think my lack of knowledge is an issue in that I may not be asking the right questions....

This has been a real learning experience for me and I think I'm catching on okay, but I still have A LOT to learn!

One guy on here, Kustomizer, gave me some really good tips as far as the process goes, but a process will only get me so far.

I am using the Cross-Fire line of paints sold by my local Napa. The product is not top-of-the-line, but I have heard that you can get good results with it if you follow the mfr guidelines, which I have been trying diligently to do by pulling the data sheets etc.

Sometimes, I feel like the info I get from the 'pro painters' is the same thing that my jobber is telling me, but the products seem to change a little-I guess not everyone makes the exact same thing....

So here's where I am at thus far in my painting project, and I have read postings that both agree and disagree with the steps so far, so let me know what you think...

1) I am using a bc/cc system.
2) The main color of the car will be chalk white.
3) I would like to add some ghost/phantom flames(still a BIG maybe). Also, if I do this, what will make the most subtle flame on white? I just want to barely see them.
4) I stripped all of the paint off of the car and shot it with self-etching primer to seal the metal.
5) This weekend I plan to shoot it with the 2K primer I bought yesterday. 3-4 coats.

--Yes, I know make sure it is clean....Tack it....Blah blah blah...

6) Then I will block sand the entire car. I am reading that here I should use about 220 grit paper.....Wet? The reason I ask is that I heard that primer will soak up water.
7) Once it is smooth I will probably shoot one more coat of primer, which if I can find some in white this is where I would like to do it...
8) Then I will shoot the base coat of white. 3-4 coats. Should I sand between coats?
9) Then the clear. 2 coats wet-sand flame area w/ 400 grit then paint the flames.
10) Then another 2 coats of clear to finish it off.
11) Finally wet-sand the entire car with 2000 grit and buff out.

I am a real perfectionist when it comes to this stuff, so I have been taking my time, so as to not have a rushed, crappy result.

I know the products I am using will not last forever, and the result is not going to be perfect, but that's okay, I plan on using this as a "confidence-builder" for my next paint job. Plus, you never know I may just suprise myself!

You all have been so helpful! Thanks again and let me know if I am on the right track.

Okay, now if you are all still awake...Please respond....THANKS!!!

 

[mrcleanr6]

hi, your definately on the right track. one thing you must realize when getting info from alot of different people especially ones that have been doing this stuff for a long time is that everyone has their own way to the end result. i myself dont wet sand my primer. i block it dry with 320. wet makes such a mess.

after you spray your 3 coats of primer spray on a guide coat so when you block it you can see what areas nned to be sanded more. once its all blocked spray another coat of primer/sealer/epoxy, wait about an hour (read tech sheets), give the car a quick sand with some 600 grit to knock off any small specks and shoot your basecoat. by quick sand i mean spend 10 min. going over the car, we are not blocking it again. i would try to find a sealer or epoxy though. these two will spray more wet and layout nice where most primer fillers are thick and dont leave a slick surface to spray your basecoat on. you do not sand basecoat between coats. for your first clear session i would do atleast 3 coats of clear, atleast where you are spraying the flames. if you sand the clear too thin and its too fresh then you have a chance of wrinkling the clear. for your final clear you may want to spray more than 2 coats. i would do atleast 3 if its a nice high solids clear, if not then maybe 4. you dont want to burn through to your flames when sanding and buffing. i would start wetsanding with 1500 then end with 2000. 2000 will work but you will be there a while.

as for your pearl, if you want it very subtle, white pearl is what you are looking for. white on white. or some companies like hok make a silvery white which is nice. a company call old school flake makes a line of pearls called ghost pearls which are very transparent and dont affect the base color which makes them nearly invisible until you get them in the sun. you can order them from www.innate.com. just mix them into some clear basecoat and spray it on. spray test panels to be sure you have the effect you want.

 

[BarryK]

VW fan, here is the work of the guy that just gave you advice.
Mrclean

Sweet!

http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/images/Photos4.jpg

 

[mrcleanr6]

thanks barry!!!

 

[[email protected]]

You seem a little confused (it's not your fault, we on the board have been sloppy with our terminology) about white 'primer'. There are three basic classes of 'primer' used in body work. First is bare metal primer which is chosen for its abilities to stick to steel and adhere to covering coats. Epoxy and acid etching primers are the usual suspects.

Second are the filling/ sanding primers that are used to level and otherwise perfect the surface of the car prior to the final finish. Urethane based 2-part PPG K2 is the legendary standard here but every manufacturer has its version. I have become very attached to the polyester based version of this product (basically thin bondo uses the same mekp hardener as bondo). Builds, sands, and finishes as well as the urethane stuff but costs WAY less. This material can be any color, in fact having a couple of contrasting (i.e., black and baby potty yellow) colors available makes block sanding easier and more effective because as you sand through one color and see another prior color show through, it's a huge aide in perfecting the surface.

Finally, you apply the sealer and this is the coat that must be chosen to compliment the final color. I use a Western brand sealer because it is the closest to pure white that I have found. Surprisingly most 'white' sealers are quite gray. That is for the urethane type sealers, not sure about the epoxies but then in California it is illegal ot use epoxy as a sealer, can only be used on bare metal and of course we all comply with that brilliant law don't we? We can only buy epoxy paint in quart cans - can buy as many quarts as you wish but is illegal to get it in gallon cans.

 

[MARTINSR]

VWFAN, (just watched my 72 BUG leave that I sold on ebay) M-S 5103 available at your NAPA store is a tintable urethane primer. It is my favorite primer, fills and sands beautiful.

Willys, "Primer" means it can go over bare metal. There are "primer surfacers", "Etch primer", "Primer sealer", etc. A "sealer" is basically a product that can be top coated without sanding. So you could have a "sealer" or a "Primer sealer" epoxies are usually refered to as a "Primer sealer" because they can be shot over bare metal AND top coated without sanding.

A "Primer surfacer" is a product that "can" be shot over bare metal and has body for filling and surfacing.
An "ecth primer" does just that, etches, it isn't a "sealer" or a "surfacer" being it as no filling to speak of.

There are some products that drift from those basic descriptions (marketing dept rules the roost) but that is basically it.

 

[VWFan]

Whoa! That's a lot of info! Thanks everyone!

Well, I got the primer on today-3 coats.
On the guide coat should I use a primer or will anything I've got in a rattle can work?

I can already see a lot of areas that need to be sanded...:sweat:

mrcleanr6-Thanks for the detailed description on the flames. The bike looks AWESOME! :thumbup:

willys36-Thanks for the tips!

MARTINSR-Thanks for the tip on the white primer, but can I apply an enamel bc over a urethane primer?

Thanks again. I don't want to be the cause of another repetitive thread, so if you want you can pm me.

 

[[email protected]]

Go to your paint supplier and get two or three big rattle cans of the lacquer primer he recommends for guide coat in a contrasting color to your sand-able surfacer. They usually recommend a cheap paint that the pros use. This is the safest bet since buying a lacquer at random often results in getting a paint that doesn't sand well and clogs your paper. Huge mess.

You can put just about anything over a urethane primer since it is pretty much a chemically cured rather than air dried product. Check with your supplier but I can't imagine any enamel that would compromise a urethane primer.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

A much better product then lacquer primer for a guide coat is 3M dry guide system. It covers EVERY single inch of surface making the lows appeared much better. It cost about 25 bucks and will last a very long time. Am still on my first bottle and I work in a production shop and use this to sand filler, primer every day, going on for over 6months...Eric

 

[mrcleanr6]

not to drag this thread out or anything but what i use for guide coat is a little unconventional so i thought i would throw it out there. i use dykem blue, the layout fluid that machinists use and mix it into some urethane reducer and spray it on my primer after the last coat. it works awesome and doesn't clog the paper and if you happen to miss an area and basecoat over it the color wont bleed. it has no build whatsoever so it sands right off. its a dark blue/purple color so it will contrast with just about anything. really nice stuff!!

 

[MARTINSR]

I second Erics recommendation of 3M's dry guide coat, I wouldn't work without it. FORGET aerosol guide coat, in my opinion that is as yesterday as a mechancal type writer.

 

[[email protected]]

Click . . . .click . . . . . .click. . . Rest. Click . . . . . . . . .click . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .click. Rest. Click . . . . . click . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

[MARTINSR]

You got me Willys, LOL I sat here reading your post over and over thinking "what in the heck is he saying" then I re-read my post, LOLOLOLOL, you make me raff.

Honestly, give the dry guide coat at try, you will never go back to aerosol. It COMPLETLY covers every square MM with a fine enough cover to go into the finest scratches, even something like 400 could be guide coated and then sanded with 600. No aerosol can is going to do that for you.

The darn stuff is expensive, something like $15.00, but it will last a LONG time. Give it a try, then let me know if you move up from that mechanical type writer to a word processor.

 

[[email protected]]

I'll definitely try it next time. That would be on the Mysterion!

 

[Vick]

Hey mrcleanr6 where can I find the dykem blue that you talked about I am intersted in knowing more about it and seeing what the end reults would be like if i decided to use this where i work.
thx in advance