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powerrodsmike said:
Kewl, Dave, Good link.
So were Cleveland valves being made using spin welding? :thumbup: **
I notice that company started in business in 75, and is a supplier to GM. ***
Mikey
**BEATS ME (at least at this writing - gotta spend some time w/my old books and, of all things, Google)And I still don't think we'll know for sure - Ford made process and manufacturing changes back then that probably are not documented so the average researcher could find valid paperwork

***All you Chebbie engine owners take heed - us Fordnatics are still somewhat in the wilderness :sweat: :sweat:

Dave
 

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Ok I looked in my book from the ford factory that was provided to its dealers for looking up specs during sales.

Which may or may not mean anything, but then what references in this part of this thread has really been definitive.

ALL engines: (and they include the Boss 302 and 429 in this section)
Valve material- intake: Forged steel, aluminized
Exhaust,(except 351,428 and 429).....cast austenitic steel
351,428 and 429............forged steel.
It makes no mention of the lash caps, which I know are installed on the exhaust valves.

Later, mikey

EDIT, again I used the term "lash cap". It should say "hardened tip". again, sorry if I caused any confusion.
here is a link to a pic of the above referred valve data Page.
 

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All great links, to actual information. I am always wanting to learn new stuff that is applicable, knowledge or procedure. So if I have come off a little stiff here it is only because, like has been pointed out, there are few posts by brian s to even establish any credibilty. If he had linked me to a Roush or Ford or any other company that would have been involved in the production of the parts opposed to a couple of enthusiast sites, I would have taken them with more credence. It did get me to research more, but haven't found anything to substantiate his post. If I am found to be under a false impression, I will readily acknowledge it, it just takes a little more that a couple of posts on any enthusiast site. I would like to think that on this forum, anything that seems incorrect from anyone's experience that it be questioned for proof. I've been wrong here on occasion and when presented with some verification that I was wrong I acknowledged it. You can check through my few posts :D and see that it isn't a regular issue.
 

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I am on the same page as you, woodz. If my info is innacurate I am able to admit my error. We been there :)

I won't admit to being wrong without information from credible sources that have some traceability.

I will echo woodz.

Other posters on other forums is not reliable info, IMO..

factory, manufacturers, engineering papers directed at technicians....that type of info is worth alot more to me..

If you look back at any of my posts, you will see that I rarely. if ever link to another forum as substantiation of my side of a discussion.

I really think that if more people would cite reliable sources, then the spread of disinformation would cease.

Also ,I just rubbed a magnet on all of the exhaust valves in my shop that came out of clevelands. They are not magnetic in the stem or head. In the link I provided from automotive rebuilder it cites 2 types of construction of an exhaust valve... One with a stainless steel head, welded to a martensitic stem. martensitic steel is magnetic.

The other is austenitic steel. Non magnetic. The lash cap is , however magnetic. The reasons are all in that link I provided.

The intakes are all magnetic, stem and head.

I don't think at this point that I am going to cut any valves.
Woodz was right.
I don't need to waste my time.

Later, mikey
 

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These are the best kind of posts/threads when several people with a lot of information can enter into the discussion. And like Mikey says, another forum just doesn't cut it. I jump into the Ford truck forum and do get a fair amount of information but quite often you really have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Generally this site has some pretty well regarded people that have been around the automotive scene for quite a while - even Chevy fans occasionally have some good information :rolleyes: :D . (Sorry, I just had to say that !)

I do intend on spending some more time in research later on - one of my step daughters, husband and 2 kids are arriving from the UK shortly so may be absent more than on line thru Monday next. :D

Dave
 

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"Cmon, Brian what is your experience and background?"

I currently own 18 Ford V8 powered vehicles and at last count including what's in the vehicles, 27 Ford motors of every engine family. Cleveland and 400s are what I concentrate on nost. I've rebuilt probably a dozen or more 335 series engines in the last 25 years for myself and others. As far as I know they are all still running.
Check my Homepage for my Cleveland forum, there are about 400 members.

Personally, I don't know how to tell the difference between a 2 piece valve and a 1 piece. I've never really concerned myself with it because I've never tried to use 4 groove valves in a high performance application. Since they're plentiful, I use stock 460 valves instead.

I have in my hand, a 351C 2V and a 460 1.65" exhaust valve. The C valve is about 50% thicker where the head meets the stem. I can't say this would do much for airflow but I don't know if that signifies a 2 piece valve. I'll can scan them for a comparison but I haven't learned how to create an album on this site yet.
 

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Brian S said:
"I have in my hand, a 351C 2V and a 460 1.65" exhaust valve. The C valve is about 50% thicker where the head meets the stem. I can't say this would do much for airflow but I don't know if that signifies a 2 piece valve. I'll can scan them for a comparison but I haven't learned how to create an album on this site yet.
I cleaned up 2 sets a 2V set and 4V yesterday and took digital pictures and was going to post them, but I realized that wouldn't help you tell the difference, now that you can't with them in your hand, I see I was correct. The thick part is where they were cast up and machined down, with 25 years experience that you claim,or is that 25 years old, you can surely see a machine tool cut. Can't you? That's the sharp line that denotes the end of a machining process, they are on all those valves. If you look closely you will also see that the cut is most likely not even all the way around, this is because they were not concentric when Forged/cast and why the were machined. A 2 piece valve of the description you supplied would have an even weld line completely around it, those won't have. There should probably be no machining marks either. Since the stem and valve head would have been machined prior to the "spin welding" and made concentric in the process.I have sent a part # to my engineer friend and he is going to see if he can locate some engineering drawings of the valve to put an end to this, with some credibilty. Engineering drawings are what were used to manufacture the valves, and if they are 2 piece valves spun together, it will be noted. Since you have made claim to building so many engines, quite collection of cars I might add... I only have about 8.. I would venture that you are probably more a 400/M guy from an earlier post. It is possible, that they went to those valves in the later M's, but once again we are talking about Clevelands, not 351Ms or 400s, contrary to what YOU believe, they are entirely different engines than the Cleveland. I know,I know,you can swap heads,cams, dist., but you can also swap a dist and timing chain from a 460 into a Cleveland and a 351M/400, but I would hardly draw any parallels between them(other than manufacturer). If you had stated that the 351M/400 valves were 2 piece I wouldn't have said anything,because I have only built a few of those and don't have enough hands-on to discount that. Well ,I didn't have, but since some of the manuals I researched (Ford ones again..probably wrong) there is no indication they were 2 piece either. So if you cannot supply any more info than idle chat on a website, I think your knowledge of the actual facts are limited or non-existant.Hang in there :thumbup: .
 

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brian s said:
I currently own 18 Ford V8 powered vehicles and at last count including what's in the vehicles, 27 Ford motors of every engine family. Cleveland and 400s are what I concentrate on nost. I've rebuilt probably a dozen or more 335 series engines in the last 25 years for myself and others. As far as I know they are all still running.
Check my Homepage for my Cleveland forum, there are about 400 members.

Well I guess you can't argue with a guy who has 18 fords and his own forum, now can you.
I would join your forum just to see if you had an album there but I won't ever sign up on anything that has yahoo in it's url.

It isn't that hard to start an album here.

Why didn't you mention the 460 valves before as the simple solution for the valve dropping problem? Hmm? If that is all you use you would think it would be one of your first responces to the initial sideways trip that this thread has taken, instead of the attempts to prove that they fail because you say they are 2 peice.

I'm still not convinced, and at this point don't really care.

mikey
 

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woodz428 said:
You can e-mail the guy and tell him he's a fool. He strikes me as one of those guys that would rather blame something other than his workmanship, or lack there of.
Would you care to clarify this remark and it's intended target or reference?
 

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KULTULZ said:
There are dark clouds forming over this thread... :pain:
Maybe I should clarify my remarks - there are quite a few of us that run our Clevelands very hard - mine has over 1800 passes on it so far. Are we all experts in metallurgy or expert engine builders - no, hardly. But we do learn some lessons and try not to make the same mistakes twice. We also try to share what we learned (or think we learned) in an effort to help the next person coming along. There are a few 351C runners that have lost engines due to stock valve or replacement stock valve failure - for whatever reason. It happens and telling someone to spend an extra $200 on valves to hopefully save $4000 worth of engine would seem a worthwhile effort. Woodz428 seems to be a "senior" member of this board and it's more that a bit unprofessional, if not just plain impolite, for someone of that stature to place a harsh label on someone else's efforts or craftsmanship with little knowledge of the specifics. Everyone that I know that pushes these things hard -Ford or not- is not afraid to say "I screwed that one up" when that is the case. And none of the car people I spend time with on the internet strikes me as a fool.
 

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Yeah Gary, I'm getting out my raincoat :p

Welcome to the forum, falcon67 :welcome:

So is a stock 351 cleveland exhaust valve of 2 piece welded construction, or does it fail because of the multi groove keepers being pushed beyond their limits?



I think that this is the question that was raised by the statement in xntrik's post number 40, addressed by wood428 and 66gmc in post 41 and 42.

The information in Brian S's post 43 is unable to be substantiated by anything other than information found on internet forums and is being questioned. No real definitive proof that the valve failed because it was a 2 piece welded design has been provided. Most of the info that would indicate those valves are 2 piece welded head to stem seem to be heresay or inapplicable, and most of the info that points to the cleveland exhaust valve being one piece seems to be a little more traceable.

As a matter of fact, it seems that the link in post 43 to the website claiming to have a valve failure due to it being a 2 piece design is no longer working. Domain name expired. :confused:

I know that I can't really consider the hardened lash caps as the cause of valve failure, because although technically 2 piece, they have nothing to do with the stem/head relationship.

For a guy to blame a failure on a misconception would make me question his ability to make an accurate assessment. Maybe that would not make him a fool, only uninformed. Spreading that info around as if it was fact would make him a fool.

I'm here to learn also, sometimes it means calling out folks who have no business being authoritative on a subject.



Later,
mikey

edit: I used the term "hardened lash caps" in error. The term should be "hardened tips". sorry, mikey
 

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I stayed out of this one as I am not (was not) sure of method of manufacture. It seems to me that a two-piece would be cheaper to make and that the BOSS 302/BOSS 351/HO 351 would definitely have to be one piece (because of mechanical valvetrain and extended RPM's). That must be why I use to spend big bucks on MANLEY (more of a weight and strength issue). All I know is that OEM is heavy.

I am awaiting the definitive answer myself... :D
 

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If you took offense, I apologize,However. I was also speaking to a poster that was qualifying his reponses with nothing other than other forums and to use them as a solid piece of evidence to sway any argument is foolhardy. I will pass on parties that use the same word of mouth to become "experts". I said, and still state that I have a shop full of Cleveland valves, 2 and 4V. I have also ground, as a machinist,thousands of these same valves and they have no indication of being 2 piece. As a matter of fact,close examination supports my position, that they are one piece and cut, in probably a turret lathe, in typical mass production. Which seems to be what all the Ford manuals of the era state. In the couple of years that have passed since working as a machinist in the early seventies and owning dozens of Cleveland engines in many forms, I have yet to see one fail as presented. At the keeper groove, yes, at the head no, unless they bumped a piston, plain and simple. And just for additional info, the Cleveland didn't use the caps on the ends of the valves, although they do have a hardened tip , just wanted to show I am familiar with the valvetrain. There are plenty of areas for failure there and moreso when lightweight retainers are used to replace those without replacing the 4 groove valves/keepers. I sent the Ford engineer a part# for the valves and he is going to see if he can locate the engineering drawings. But with T-day wouldn't expect anything until next week.
To summarize, I have enough stock Cleveland valves in hand, have ground enough over the last 36 years, that in order for me to believe that they are 2 piece instead of one, will take more than some guy... I have never met... have no way of judging their ability/knowledge.... posting it as being so and referencing another site , of some other guy I have the same reservations as above, saying it is so.. as some form of proof. I still say show me some evidence that isn't from some chat room/forum/this guy said/that guy said,that can be verified and I will reconsider my position. Until then ANYONE that believes something on the internet, or anywhere, just because SOME guy said it, without PROOF....is a FOOL. You know, better than me if you are or not. Regardless, you shouldn't be offended either way. :D

edited error posted in haste
 

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woodz428 said:
I have never met... have no way of judging their ability/knowledge.... posting it as being so and referencing another site , of some other guy I have the same reservations as above, saying it is so.. as some form of proof. I still say show me some evidence that isn't from some chat room/forum/this guy said/that guy said,that can be verified and I will reconsider my position. Until then ANYONE that believes something on the internet, or anywhere, just because SOME guy said it, without PROOF....is a FOOL.

Wow sounds allot like statements I made years ago and was ridiculed for. Careful woodz. Now I will emphasize I do not know Brian and this in no way related to this thread specifically. It's just funny after being away for a while seeing some stuff just never changes. I do still remember way back when we used to have to submit photos of us/our projects when we registered, when your photo gallery said something about who you were. Yes this site has prospered in it's relaxed state and the internet is what it is but I still miss some of the way it used to be because for the most part I just don't like it when you can't tell what's what and who's who. I speak my mind if I sense BS, sometimes I've been right in judgement and sometimes I've been wrong. Oh well! :cool:
 

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I was having a little fun with the word "fool", that seemed to create hurt feelings, sometimes it just seems to beg to be used :D . I am no one special and don't mean to come across as I am. I have some experience and that , like most people's, is the strongest yardstick of credibilty. The more experience I gain, which is learning, the more "accurate" my yardstick becomes. So, by my yardstick it doesn't seem to measure out. I don't even know what I have in my album, but I am easily observed over time at www.gearheadcity.com . Haven't updated it in a few weeks, but work gets in the way,LOL. :thumbup:
 

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Thanks all for the responses. I think that's all cleared up - no offense taken on this end. Sounds like the questioned post took on a more "hostile" reading than intended. Like I never posted anything like that on the internet...

I own the raceabilene.com site - I apologize for it being down at the moment, our name registrar dropped the ball and the site should be back up by the end of the week. Not a good deal, costing us sales - we get 2000+ hits a day, so it really sucks. :pain:

Since one of the sites quoted was mine, I'll just throw in the on topic details. The heads had all new Manley replacement valves procured from PAW. They were installed by a local shop, one with a very good rep. Guides honed, not reamed, springs assembled per spec - 100 lbs seat, 260 over the nose, 10 degree locks, good seals (Viton IIRC - V6 items) etc. The cam was a mild one, 214/224 - .510/.536. The engine was new (1400 miles) and had been raced at a single event, maybe 8 passes total. We were cruising into town running about 3K RPM on the freeway, it started a terrible rattle and the motor was dead before I could get to the key. The head of an exhaust valve separated from the stem. Calling it "two piece" might certainly be a stretch on my part - but the pieces sure look like they came apart in a way that implied they were once two individual parts. It could also very well been just a manufacturing defect. They are on a shelf in the shop somewhere, I'll try to dig them out again. Whatever it was, it took out the block, head, two pistons and two rods. The rod/piston from that cylinder is a business card holder on my desk at work. The rod had such a nice "S" shape to it, I couldn't just toss it. The TRW forged piston got the everlovin' carp beat out of it, but it stayed in once piece. Viva forged pistons. The crank checked out at .0005 TIR, and is running fine in the replacement motor.

I used Manley stainless replacements in the 2V heads that went on the next motor. That motor will come down this winter for freshening - and looking at the time slip pile from this month, we may be at more like 1900 something total passes on that motor. Thats twice to 6000 each pass, cross the end at 5400. The stainless valves may be perfectly happy - but I'll bet the valve springs wish someone would shoot them to put them out of their misery :D

So that's my experience. My real intent is to try to tell people that every dollar you spend on good parts and professional head work will pay you back. Saving a buck on a valve - or spring, or ring, or bearing or...- may not be saving a buck.
 

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Falcon67 said:
My real intent is to try to tell people that every dollar you spend on good parts and professional head work will pay you back. Saving a buck on a valve - or spring, or ring, or bearing or...- may not be saving a buck.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that.....but wait a minute,I could be wrong :thumbup: .
 

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mstngjoe said:
When swapping any clyinder head, the chamber size will determine whether you gain or lose static compression.
  • Cylinder head chamber volume...

  • Piston dome design/height volume...

  • Thickness of head gasket...

  • Even spark plug type will have an effect...

Now the above determine static CR. Cam events will also have an effect on final CR, right?
 

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xntrik said:
Please allow me to clarify.......

You can NOT run Cleveland heads with Windsor pistons...... period....the valve reliefs are in the wrong places....
How about a low compression engine with dished pistons? Would you need the correct valve reliefs there?

...and the C heads require a different cam because of the different rocker arms..... check it out carefully and you will see that I am correct.
302/351W Rocker Arm Ratio 1.61:1

351C Rocker Arm Ratio 1.73:1
 
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