The fly wheels are differant
168-Tooth, External Engine Balance,
153-Tooth, Internal Engine Balance,

"My truck has an external balance and the donor truck has an internal balance camshaft."

So if your trucks motor is external balanced you will need the fly wheel for that application.

 

Reply

Yea I got a flywheel that is off an externally balanced engine (the van) and its on the truck now. Sorry if I wasn't clear. So it's got the right flywheel.

 

I would say you are using the wrong starter. JMO



Cole

 

Yup that would be the next consideration, the starter. Could check the action of the starter gear, make sure the solenoid is pulling that gear all the way forward, no obstructions on the shaft. With the starter out, the lug that is on the bottom of the solenoid, disconnect that so the starter dose not spin the motor and then apply bat V to the solenoid and watch the action of that gear in the nose.

It sounds like you have two different starter sitting there if I am reading the post correctly, could have mixed them up, would not be the first time that happened. Not major but none the less a PITA, starters are no feather weights.

 

The only externally balanced engine I can think of off the top of my head is a 400 small block. Did one of these vehicles have a 400 small block in it? If so, that flywheel WILL NOT work with an internally balanced engine such as the 305, 350, 327, 307, 327, etc;

As mentioned above, there are two flywheel tooth counts 153 or 168. Match the starter to the flywheel and your problem will be solved. If you have a 153 tooth flywheel. Look for a starter from a 1970 Olds product with a 455. It will be a high torque starter designed for the 153 tooth flywheel and will bolt directly to your small block.

Or, go with one of the gear reduction starters off like a 95 Chevy 1/2 ton pick up with a 350. That starter will be VERY light, will pack one hell of an electrical punch, and will start an engine even if the battery is weak as it draws less amperage than the old style starters. It is also designed to work with a 153 tooth flywheel.

If you need a 168 tooth starter, buy one for a '69 Camaro with a 350.

 

Thanks guys. Im still learning alot of this stuff but all I know is my engine has an external weigh on the crankshaft where the flywheel bolts up. On the donor truck it does not. My engine is a 350 as is the donor truck and both tooth counts on there flywheels are 168. Also both starter look exactlly alike.

 

The only externally balanced engine I can think of off the top of my head is a 400 small block. Did one of these vehicles have a 400 small block in it? If so, that flywheel WILL NOT work with an internally balanced engine such as the 305, 350, 327, 307, 327, etc;

As mentioned above, there are two flywheel tooth counts 153 or 168. Match the starter to the flywheel and your problem will be solved. If you have a 153 tooth flywheel. Look for a starter from a 1970 Olds product with a 455. It will be a high torque starter designed for the 153 tooth flywheel and will bolt directly to your small block.

Or, go with one of the gear reduction starters off like a 95 Chevy 1/2 ton pick up with a 350. That starter will be VERY light, will pack one hell of an electrical punch, and will start an engine even if the battery is weak as it draws less amperage than the old style starters. It is also designed to work with a 153 tooth flywheel.

If you need a 168 tooth starter, buy one for a '69 Camaro with a 350.

olds starters mount on the left side of the block, not the right side like chevy.
also, i do trans R&R for a living and have never seen a 153 tooth flexplate (OEM) on any 86 and newer chevy engine for a truck.

to the OP, if the tooth count was the same, then why would you change the starter? did the truck start correctly before? have you tested the starter off of the donor truck to verify that its even good?
have you tried the starter (the origional starter you had on the truck) that you took off your truck to confirm that its a flywheel problem and not a starter issue?
and lastly, have you pulled the starter drive into the start position to verify that the starter teeth are meshing properly with the flywheel? is there a gap?

 

Thanks guys. Im still learning alot of this stuff but all I know is my engine has an external weigh on the crankshaft where the flywheel bolts up. On the donor truck it does not. My engine is a 350 as is the donor truck and both tooth counts on there flywheels are 168. Also both starter look exactlly alike.

The 1986 - up SB Chevrolet V8/4.3L V6 engines with a one-piece rear main seal use a 168 tooth counter weighted flywheel and use a starter with off-set starter bolts. The flex plate counter weight is to compensate for internally balanced engine that uses a one piece main seal crank flange that does not have a counterweight.

The 153 tooth flex plate has a 3.58" crank flange bolt circle and the 163 tooth flex plate has a 3.00" crank flange bolt circle. The smart fellers at the factory made them that way so they would be mechanic proof.

I don't know what 3-bolt torque converter bolt circle is used with the different transmissions. I used a TCI flex plate with 10.750" and 11.000" torque converter bolt patterns on my 1991 S10 Blazer 4.3L V6 with a 700R4 transmission which was 10.750"

 

Thanks again guys. I'm gonna take the advice and disconnect the motor from the starter and run it and see how it meshess up. Maybe i need a different starter for a manual flywheel???? I will research it.

 

have you tested the starter off of the donor truck to verify that its even good?
have you tried the starter (the origional starter you had on the truck) that you took off your truck to confirm that its a flywheel problem and not a starter issue?
and lastly, have you pulled the starter drive into the start position to verify that the starter teeth are meshing properly with the flywheel? is there a gap?

This is good advice there is no difference in starters in an auto or manual trans.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=GM 350 starter&dds=1

The only difference you will see here , looking at the OEM parts is one starter is Staggered and the other is not all fit; Big/Small Block, GM 90 Degree V6 ; no mention of auto or standard/manual trans.

 

Ok so I bought a new starter with a wider mouth opening for the gear and what I found is that the teeth on the starter with some shims will engage the flywheel and turn it some but it is a tight fit and the teeth stay stuck in the flywheel. I can't seem to lower it enough to have it mess corectly because after about 4 shims it bottoms out on the bellhousing of the transmissinon. And it appears to need to be lowered some more. I re counted the teeth on the flywheel and it is 168 which is what I had before. ????????

 

Could I grind out some of the bellhousing on the tranni? I know it sounds crazy but I'm getting desperate. It should work all the parts fit together great except for the starter.

 

This is good advice there is no difference in starters in an auto or manual trans.

http://www.summitracing.com/search/?keyword=GM 350 starter&dds=1

The only difference you will see here , looking at the OEM parts is one starter is Staggered and the other is not all fit; Big/Small Block, GM 90 Degree V6 ; no mention of auto or standard/manual trans.

NOT TRUE

Manual trans cars/trucks and Auto trans cars/trucks use different starters.
Manual trans starters have noses that are cast iron and a bit thinner than the AT versions.
The AT starter will not even fit into most manual trans bell housings.

If you are using a 621 bell for the Muncie----you should get a starter for a manual trans vehicle----suggest a starter for a 70 Chevelle with a manual trans.

If you are using a truck bellhousing, you will need to get a spacer ring for the big bore in the bell housing as the bearing retainer on the Muncie is too small for the hole in the truck bell.
Spacers are available from McCleod Clutches---also some transmission vendors are offering a larger bearing retainer for the Muncie to go into a truck bell.

 

Could I grind out some of the bellhousing on the tranni? I know it sounds crazy but I'm getting desperate. It should work all the parts fit together great except for the starter.

Get the CORRECT manual transmission starter for your flywheel.
Do not grind away on a bell housing----could be dangerous.

large flywheel-----168 tooth-----big bell-----manual trans staggered bolt starter.

 

Sometimes you only need to put shims on one bolt, they are thin and can be cut, that will rotate the starter, You only need a paper clip thickness for clearance of the ring and starter gear..

Just to refresh, you put a 4 speed on, bell housing was change of course, but the question I have is why did you not reuse the original starter, it was working correct? Just for grins count the teeth on the starter gear, not the fly wheel. The new one and the old ones, all three, how many did you find?

One was from an auto trans and one from the manual. I do not think there is a difference in the tooth count, on the starter gear. I have never had to check that .

I do not think there is a different starter for auto and manual, he has the starter from the donor that he's got the 4 speed from. So if there is a difference it should be right in front of him to see.

 

I tried my original starter first but none of them really worked. Have you ever heard of anyone having this much trouble with a auto to manual conversion?

 

So neither would engage the fly wheel ?

 

Both motors the same year?

 

Thanks, what do mean by bearing retainer?

 

No neither would fully engage and turn over the motor. NO both motors are not the same year. and both truck have crate motors so Im not sure of the year all i no is my truck has a two piece rear main and the donor truck has a one piece.

 

No neither would fully engage and turn over the motor. NO both motors are not the same year. and both truck have crate motors so Im not sure of the year all i no is my truck has a two piece rear main and the donor truck has a one piece.

Ok so the pinion gear was fully extending and not reaching the ring gear on the flywheel. That makes me think the flywheel is wrong for the motor in your truck. Not what you want to here, I am going to look up a part number be right back.

 

Also the bellhousing for the tranni is a truck housing and was on the donor truck and running up until I took it out. It bolted right up to my truck wihout a problem.

 

Ok so the pinion gear was fully extending and not reaching the ring gear on the flywheel. That makes me think the flywheel is wrong for the motor in your truck. Not what you want to here, I am going to look up a part number be right back.

NO it was reaching the ring gear but was and still is chattering and barely turning the engine over. Not even turning enough to start. and then when I stop trying to start the truck and go underneath to check its stuck in the flywheel and dosen't retract.

 

Bearing retainer---
When you mention Muncie 4 spd----I think of a car trans.
But in your defense---I have a Muncie in my 79 C-10----not a car trans.
It's that big ol' heavy truck granny trans.
Bearing retainer on the truck trans is larger than on a car trans.
That is the piece that bolts onto the front of the trans and looks kind of like a teepee---that the input shaft goes thru and the throwout bearing slides on.


As for flywheels-----not sure but I thought the one piece seal motors and the 2 piece seal motors used different flywheels .

They certainly do on the big block motors.

Starters are different----I have 2 73 Malibus----one AT and one a 3 spd manual----different starters

I would double check everything. When I went from an AT to a manual in my 79, waaaay back in 86, I don't recall running into any issues other than the trans crossmember (different on AT vs Manual) and installing a center bearing crossmember for my driveshaft. That was kind of a pain as that crossmember also supports the back of the cab. AND---my AT starter would not work.

Another option would be an aftermarket hi torque mini starter.
I have one in my 59 (454 and a 5 spd) and tht thing spins the motor just great----heat does not affect it, and it is easy to disconnect wiring and remove. The same cannot be said for a stock GM starter.

 

http://www.summitracing.com/compare.aspx

take a close look at these two, one is for internal and the other is for an external balanced motor, are both motors balanced the same? The fly wheels look like one is thicker then the other, that could effect the way the fly wheel hangs off the back of the crank, and that would effect the ring gear placement to the starter.

You should take the number off the two blocks and see what you have, that number will be passenger side front where the head meets the block. This is sounding more and more like a mismatch of parts..