The center of the lowwer ball joint is your center line to work off..

I have done many clip's this way..

If your doing a nova with rear streeing.. You might want to move it forward a little... Making up the steering can be fun with rear streeing box..

Here's a nova clip in a 58 chevy I did..

 

The center of the lowwer ball joint is your center line to work off..

I have done many clip's this way..

If your doing a nova with rear streeing.. You might want to move it forward a little... Making up the steering can be fun with rear streeing box..

Here's a nova clip in a 58 chevy I did..

Thanks!

Being a 75-79 Nova, this would be a front steer unit. Do I just center the center of the lower ball joint in my fender well?

How much clearance do you have between the heads and fire wall?

Do you have any pictures of the frame graft areas?

 

Or you running a big block or small block?

 

Or you running a big block or small block?

Small block

 

Randy has done a number of these clips, I have done one, so I dumbed it down to ensure that it was proper and I didn't screw up some how.

I wanted the front end at ride height so there was nothing to figure out with the arch of the control arms and where the center of the hub was going to end up with it compressed down at ride height. I don't know how much of an issue this is but I too had seen so many of these trucks with the wheels too far back I didn't want to do what ever it was they did so I put it at ride height so I couldn't screw it up.

I removed the shocks and put a piece of all thread in their place. I tightened the nuts on the all thread compressing the springs down to where I had measured was the distance between the rubber bumpers on the control arm and the crossmember on the car I took the sub frame from at ride height. It was a 78ish Camaro and was very near the same weight as the truck so to use this measurement made sense to me. With that sub frame at the ride height it would be when the truck is done I trimmed the frame and sub frame to mate.

I put the rear of the truck at the ride height I planned for it with the frame sitting on jack stands.

I rolled the sub frame up to the frame temporarily clamped it in place after measuring the wheelbase. I then put the front sheet metal on the truck to find that it was in deed a little too far back! A quarter inch can make a difference! I moved it forward until it was right and tack welded it in place, removed everything and finish weldng it.

One very important thing I also did was to check the angle of the upper control arm shafts on the donor car at ride height with a protractor and make sure they are the same on your truck when you put the sub frame into place. It can then be aligned properly without any offset shafts and crap like that (I learned that from a guy who had to do just that) It can be aligned just like the donor car was, nothing for the alignment shop to figure out and have their head explode when they are asked to align your customized truck.

I didn't like how wide the Camaro was, WAY too wide for these trucks, and the front steer is a mess if you ask me. With a rear steer it will be a LOT better so you don't have cut up the rad support all to hell. If it's the same track width as the Camaro which I thought the Nova was, I highly recommend going a different route, a Mustang II, an 80ish Malibu is a few inches narrower. But honestly, with it lowered down where we all like'm that Camaro front was WAY too wide and needed very narrow tires with a negative offset wheel to work without hitting the fenders.

Brian

Edit: I just read that it was a front steer......I would HIGHLY recommend against it. Unless you plan on changing out the rad support and extensive mods like a cross flow rad and that sort of thing, I highly recommend against the front steer. The box ends up exactly where your rad support is and it has to be cut up pretty bad to clear the box.

 

Hey, check out my rear steer nova clip at adsmtz on this site. I to was going to use a 77 nova clip. I cut and narrowed it 1.5 and it seemed to wide. Just as mention, had to cut/ notch radiator support. I did the Foose treatment on mine, 3/4 of inch forward of the center of wheel weld and 1.5 in the back. Make sure the lower a arms are level and get your ride hight where you want it. Ads

 

The Nova is 1.5'' narrower then the Camaro..

 

The mounting of the sub to the 53 frame will of course look a lot different than Randy's beautiful job on that 55, the AD (47-54) frame is much narrower than the 55-59 so they don't line up as well.

That 1.5 inches will make a heck of a difference, but in my opinion it's still too wide if you want to run any wider than 6" wheels and narrow tires.

Brian

 

The mounting of the sub to the 53 frame will of course look a lot different than Randy's beautiful job on that 55, the AD (47-54) frame is much narrower than the 55-59 so they don't line up as well.

That 1.5 inches will make a heck of a difference, but in my opinion it's still too wide if you want to run any wider than 6" wheels and narrow tires.

Brian

Why not cut the top and bottom of the channel frame and widen the 53 frame rails out to align better with the Nova, then plate and box the existing frame for support?

Out of curiosity, what backspacing would you be need to run on the front wheels?

 

I used a 76 Nova subframe on my 51 F1.....This was back around 1991, and I knew nothing of how to do this....Right or wrong, I grafted the clip to the Ford frame and didnt cut off the frame rails from the Nova clip...My thought was that all that extra weld area would only add more strength to it.......Must have done OK as its still holding up 22 years later.

 

I used a 76 Nova subframe on my 51 F1.....This was back around 1991, and I knew nothing of how to do this....Right or wrong, I grafted the clip to the Ford frame and didnt cut off the frame rails from the Nova clip...My thought was that all that extra weld area would only add more strength to it.......Must have done OK as its still holding up 22 years later.

:thumbup: Nice work Poncho! Heck, most new vehicles are lucky to even last 22 years, so I would say you did better then "OK."

 

This truck has a 85 monte carlo SS clip and rear end in it you can see wheel placement the front is narrow as compared to the 77 nova so I cab run 14x8 wheels with3-3/ 4in back spacing 215 70 14 tires ..rear has15x12 with 295 x70x15,,i have been told the front is same as s10 don't know that for sure but the SS has a larger front anti sway bar also front steer which I needed to clear my big block engine did not have to cut my radiator support or cradle ,just welded a tab and the cradle sits on top of it without the rubber pads.
that is just mine ,these other guys have probably built more of these than me ,so I would follow there advise.:thumbup::thumbup:

 

Never thought about that ,,Good Idea mi will have to remember that,i have been watching most of these post as I will be installing a corvette c4 front and rear in my wifes 50 chevy truck ,,I know since I have to drill the holes to bolt in the cradleyou have to tilt the cradle to keep the geometry correct top and bottom ball joint in same angle as before ,IF you change tire size or the sterring is very twichy and will not return to center after making a turn,,i dfove on a builder??? had installed ,what a mess,

 

I'm not saying you have it aligned Randy, but of course you are making sure everything is straight with simple measuring. Not everyone can do that of course so they have it aligned. No matter how perfect something is welded in, there still is that tiny bit of give which is why the factory aligned it to begin with. The stack of shims that were there weren't the same on every one of those frames welded in a "perfect" jig. And when Mr. Brown had his Camaro aligned at Big O tire by Johnny on his first day there and then wrecked the car the next day and it ended up in the wrecking yard where I bought my clip, it wasn't perfect then either. When after you install the clip you paint the frame and the control arms, you don't put the shims back exactly like they were, you measure and make sure everything is straight, that is what I am saying. I know you don't bring it back to Big O.

Brian

 

Couple notes from a guy who's only actually done two subframe "grafts" but at-least took the most torturous mistake-ridden paths through them...

Happening upon "X" subframe and figuring to just stick it in "Y" vehicle is not the way to go. Ideally, with the original front frame cut out first block the car up to how you want it to sit, and then have the wheels/tires you really want set in there where they belong. Then measure for between the hubs and pick a subframe to fit that and go out and find one. S-10s are narrowest on one end of the spectrum, then '78-up A/G, '64-67 A or '67-74 A/X rear-steer, then '75-up X and finally 2nd-gen Camaro the widest (list not guaranteed accurate). Can't tell you where Pacer or Volare's fit in with that but those aren't around anymore anyway. All of this gets shuffled around to make sure it looks and steers right before any welding/fabricating gets done.

Tying the suspension down to ride-height with a couple lengths of all-thread first for any figuring of where things should go is the way to do it indeed...why try to calculate your way through determining where the wheels will be at ride-height when you can just put them there in the first place. And tie the a-arms to where they should go, when the car is otherwise complete you can screw around with springs to get it there again...as the front suspension roll center height should about split the difference between the ground and vehicle c/g, a car is going to have the lower a-arms nearly flat but a truck might have them angled down toward the spindles a bit. Lower a-arm pivots front-to-back should be parallel with the ground, then uppers will just be at whatever angle the factory chose for anti-dive. Confirm that caster will be at-least in range then, you can do it by eye from the side with a protractor.

Those front-steer boxes really are a problem in an older vehicle w/ minimal front overhang. You're left with any decent-size radiator having to go in front of the box and there may not be room for it. Shame to get that far before finding that out.

If no stock GM subframe really fits, and/or there is simply no room for a steering box in front but the width frame you need has that, then go to fabricated Mustang II stuff that can be made however wide and uses a rack. I personally will never be comfortable with using parts designed for little cars with tiny 13" wheels on trucks but the rest of the world seems to make 'em work pretty well.

 

You made more sense of what I was trying to say, thanks. :thumbup:

Brian

 

I have a Mustang II front end, but do not like the look of them. They are too narrow in my opinion.

I also have an AMC Pacer front end, but it has seen better days. The control arms are pitted to hell and I would have $1200 in rebuilding it with bushings, tie rods, ball joints, springs, etc...

 

Have you actually priced out rebuilding a pacer front end? $1,200 seems real steep...if the control arms are pitted, that can be fixed...the most expensive thing I can see on a Pacer front end is the steering box...if needed...the rest isn't that bad.

Ray

 

:nono::nono:
Look's like we are going to scair off another hotrodder with all this...
Pretty soon no one will customize their cars and truck anymore..I'm done..

 

Luckily, I do not scare easy. I have already cut everything off the 53 frame and cut approximately 32" off the frame rails. I am committed now!

I really appreciate all the suggestions and input. Of course we all know that they say about opinions........ It is up to me to sort it out the best that I can.

Keep the details coming fellas!

 

Here is a tutorial on a 1982 G body clip on a 50 Chevy pickup 47-55 Chevy/GMC truck frame clipping

The core support has to be modified for steering box clearance, I kicked the bottom of the radiator out 4" to clear the steering. It's been on the road for some time now with no problems. It has 500 Caddy power.

You can use the F body spindles on the G body clip, they bolt on. You can also use B body spindles, they also bolt on, they have 12" disc brakes, with a 5" wheel bolt pattern. 94 Camaro 12" rotors can be fitted to the B body spindles if you want 4 3/4" bolt pattern.

67 to 69 Camaro, 68 to 74 Nova, 79 to 87 A and G bodies, and Mustang II/Pinto are all within 1/2" in overall width at about 56 1/2". 70 to 82 Camaro, and 75 to79 nova are nearly the same as each other at 60 to 61".

 

Here is a tutorial on a 1982 G body clip on a 50 Chevy pickup 47-55 Chevy/GMC truck frame clipping

The core support has to be modified for steering box clearance, I kicked the bottom of the radiator out 4" to clear the steering. It's been on the road for some time now with no problems. It has 500 Caddy power.

You can use the F body spindles on the G body clip, they bolt on. You can also use B body spindles, they also bolt on, they have 12" disc brakes, with a 5" wheel bolt pattern. 94 Camaro 12" rotors can be fitted to the B body spindles if you want 4 3/4" bolt pattern.

67 to 69 Camaro, 68 to 74 Nova, 79 to 87 A and G bodies, and Mustang II/Pinto are all within 1/2" in overall width at about 56 1/2". 70 to 82 Camaro, and 75 to79 nova are nearly the same as each other at 60 to 61".

Do you know if F, G, and B spindles will work on the X body?

Does GM make any spindles that will fit with a 5x4.5" bolt pattern?


Currently the truck has a 10 bolt rear end out of a 70-ish Camaro. I have a 96-ish 8.8" out of an Explorer with disc brake setup that I considered using, but would prefer the same bolt pattern front and rear.

 

Here is a tutorial on a 1982 G body clip on a 50 Chevy pickup 47-55 Chevy/GMC truck frame clipping

The core support has to be modified for steering box clearance, I kicked the bottom of the radiator out 4" to clear the steering. It's been on the road for some time now with no problems. It has 500 Caddy power.

You can use the F body spindles on the G body clip, they bolt on. You can also use B body spindles, they also bolt on, they have 12" disc brakes, with a 5" wheel bolt pattern. 94 Camaro 12" rotors can be fitted to the B body spindles if you want 4 3/4" bolt pattern.

67 to 69 Camaro, 68 to 74 Nova, 79 to 87 A and G bodies, and Mustang II/Pinto are all within 1/2" in overall width at about 56 1/2". 70 to 82 Camaro, and 75 to79 nova are nearly the same as each other at 60 to 61".

 

Can someone please explain the reasoning behind using the center of the lower ball joint as the base for subframe location?

Before I tore the original axle out of the truck, I centered the steering perfectly and marked the floor with the center of the spindles.

I have the Nova subframe positioned with the center of the spindles aligned with my marks on the floor. If I hang a plumb bob from the grease fitting in the lower ball joint, it is 3/4" behind my spindle center line.

Will my spindle location shift once the engine, transmission, fenders, hood, grill, etc... are mounted?

Help me understand the geometry of this. Thanks!

 

I have never looked at a spindle like that, if the center of the ball joint is in fact the center of the hub ("axle") mount then it you would simply put the measurement of the ball joint center at your wheel base and there you go. The ball joint isn't going to go forward or back thru the arch........much. ain: And this is the reason I removed all doubt and dumbed it down to putting it at ride height with a piece of all-tread and trial fit the front sheet metal and the whole deal so I KNEW that wheel was where it belonged BEFORE I welded it on. Like I said, a quarter inch makes a difference, if that wheel is forward or back a very small amount you CAN see it so that's why I did it as I did and it worked out perfect. In that photo you see with my little boy next to it (he's 16 now!) there is no motor or trans in that truck, it was still being held down by the all-thread I replaced the shocks with. It's that simple, no doubts, no guessing. If I had done a bunch of them like Randy I wouldn't need it I guess, but in that one I did, I lowered it to ride height.

Brian

 

I have never looked at a spindle like that, if the center of the ball joint is in fact the center of the hub ("axle") mount then it you would simply put the measurement of the ball joint center at your wheel base and there you go. The ball joint isn't going to go forward or back thru the arch........much. ain: And this is the reason I removed all doubt and dumbed it down to putting it at ride height with a piece of all-tread and trial fit the front sheet metal and the whole deal so I KNEW that wheel was where it belonged BEFORE I welded it on. Like I said, a quarter inch makes a difference, if that wheel is forward or back a very small amount you CAN see it so that's why I did it as I did and it worked out perfect. In that photo you see with my little boy next to it (he's 16 now!) there is no motor or trans in that truck, it was still being held down by the all-thread I replaced the shocks with. It's that simple, no doubts, no guessing. If I had done a bunch of them like Randy I wouldn't need it I guess, but in that one I did, I lowered it to ride height.

Brian

Thanks Brian!

I have plenty of questions.

How do you determine ride height?

Is it a best guesstimate based off of vehicle weights, straight six versus V8, etc....

 

You know what, I just got to thinking, the upper control arm shaft on these front ends is at an angle, it's called "anti-dive". The bottom ball joint may not move forward or back, but the upper one does, thus the hub mount ("axle") WOULD move forward and back thru the arch of the suspension travel. How much it goes down when the weight is in it would determine where that axle/hub mount ends up. Like I said, I am sorry, I need to KNOW things and I wouldn't personally do that, just my opinion, that is why I did as I did so there was no doubt.

Brian

 

You know what, I just got to thinking, the upper control arm shaft on these front ends is at an angle, it's called "anti-dive". The bottom ball joint may not move forward or back, but the upper one does, thus the hub mount ("axle") WOULD move forward and back thru the arch of the suspension travel. How much it goes down when the weight is in it would determine where that axle/hub mount ends up. Like I said, I am sorry, I need to KNOW things and I wouldn't personally do that, just my opinion, that is why I did as I did so there was no doubt.

Brian

Well, I guess I need to do some experimenting to see how much movement there is. Personally, I feel 3/4" would be a huge amount of shift.

 

And of course if you wait for Randy to post you will have the answer doing it that other way. :thumbup:

Brian

 

The stock truck and the 77 Nova weigh about the same. I simply measured the distance between the lower control arm rubber bumper and where it hits the crossmember on the donor car, as I remember it was about 2" (doesn't sound like much but that is what I remember) and it put the all-thread in and tightened it up until the rubber bumpers were about that far away. That put the sub frame down at the ride height it was on the Nova. I set the frame on jack stands so that the truck was at the ride height I wanted it, front and rear. I then tack welded the sub frame to the frame with the upper control arm shafts at the exact same angle they were on the donor car when it was at ride height. That would give me everything the donor car had, it would be exactly the same.

When I was doing this the sub frame was already removed from a car so I found the same car and made these measurements, that may not be so easy today looking for a 77 Nova. But you should be able to get that number from someone on line as to how far is the rubber bumper from the frame.

Randy was saying if the lower control arms are level that will give you the same thing as far as the control arm shafts angle.

After it was tack welded in, I installed the front fender assy to be sure the wheels where placed where they needed to be. That is where I found the frame clip needed to be moved forward about 3/8"-1/2" something like that. I forget exactly but it was quite a bit, the wheels were too far back in the wheel wells and it just didn't look right. My time spent on mocking up the front sheetmetal was good time spent in my opinion! I cut the spot welds and moved it forward where it needed to be and then made the plates to weld the two together.

I am certainly not saying this is the best way, It's just how I did it, it worked out well.

Brian

 

When you level the lower control arms, I am assuming that you guys mean front to back, correct?

Where exactly are you placing the level to level the control arms?

 

I am assuming just out from the bushings on the frame, but you will need to ask Randy to confirm. The alignment on these front ends can go miles, so it isn't super critical. I just had the guy next to my shop show me how he welded his frame on just thinking about how to mate it to the frame and not thinking about all the other stuff, like I said welding it to the frame is a no brainer, it's the other things that you have to think about. I don't have one of these cars here to look at or I would for you to get your answers.

Brian

 

I tried to post pictures of my 53 with clip sitting beside a stock 52 ,,the difference is unbelievable ,mine looks much heavier ,I cant post pictures from my camera on this site ,I have to print them on photo paper then transfer to files then print

 

Your photos are probably too large. Get on photobucket and then you can do anything you want. Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing

The Nova weighs from 3200 to 3600 or so depending on options. The truck was on the low end of that but right there.

Brian

 

This is a comparison ,with the weight of straight axle and 2 spring packs vs. the lighter stamped steel clip ,I guess weight might be close to same.

 

On a stock Nova the center of the crossmember is about 6" from the ground. That's what I use to determine ride height. A G and F bodies are about the same.

 

Optimal ride height of a factory suspension re-assigned for some other application is not determined by anything except the angles between the various pivot points (outer ball joint center, inner bushings etc.) resulting in a roll center appropriate to the vehicle c/g height, with all things incl. tire diameter considered. All other dimensions are or should-be incidental. The constructor has to work it out from there.

 

Optimal ride height of a factory suspension re-assigned for some other application is not determined by anything except the angles between the various pivot points (outer ball joint center, inner bushings etc.) resulting in a roll center appropriate to the vehicle c/g height, with all things incl. tire diameter considered. All other dimensions are or should-be incidental. The constructor has to work it out from there.

I agree! It seems like there are many variables.