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700R4 4th gear issue..EDIT: July 8, 2021 MY error !

8.9K views 23 replies 7 participants last post by  '49 Ford Coupe  
#1 · (Edited)
EDIT: "My apologies to those who said there is no 2-4 Solenoid in a 700R4. I'm old, and I like my wine, and I mistyped "solenoid" rather than "servo"... they both start with an "S"... BUT, only one respondent pointed out that I may have mistyped..... oh well..."

I know, thousands of us have had this problem, but this one is weird...I sent this to Dana at ProBuilt, but for some reason, he has not answered nor answered his phone. Does anybody know if he's ok ???

After Dana suggested that I put a gallon of Caterpillar gear fluid in, since the symptoms have all been seemingly due to temperature, hence, the guess was viscosity. The major issue, since the last rebuild, has been the fact that when cold/ambient temperature, it goes into 4th just fine. But as the temperature rises/further driving, the shift point for 4th gear engagement would rise from about 40 to 45 mph, up to 65 mph or so.

Unfortunately, it seemed that the addition of the Cat fluid, there seemed to be no affect. Then, I FINALLY installed the Sonnax 2-4 full blast solenoid. After that I thought everything was fixed.. for a while... it was back to normal.. but then it started again..

SOOOOO, I decided that I had to add cooling, so I bought an 11"x11" cooler, and added it in front of the condenser and piped it in series with the original 5"x11" cooler (under a third pusher fan that I had installed earlier with a fan sequencer to control it. The pusher is the first to come on.....) that I had installed during the original build to triple the cooling effect. Well, then all was perfect and I thought everything was now wonderful.! ! ! (This is covered in the second link below on page 2 of Chapter 2 of the 700R4 rebuild)
maybe 500 miles of driving... all of a sudden, I'm back to the original issue... no 4th after I drive maybe 3 or 4 miles.. good 4th gear till it warms up, but now, the shift point doesn't gradually keep rising the further I drive, all of a sudden, no 4th even up to 70 mph once it warms up. This was just last week after the drag race mentioned below)

So, now, I'm more than frustrated, and thinking I have a "control" issue with the valve body... I have searched and printed three reference drawings to try to figure out the real culprit..

Here is what I'm thinking... which I don't have much confidence in, so I thought you may be able to shed some light on this thing...

By the way, when it DOES go into 4th, it is not "lazy" or slip in any way. When the 2-4 solenoid kicks in, it's a nice firm shift, even with the "old" Corvette servo (later put a Sonnax full kit servo). And I have no issue with the lockup working either. I have a three way switch and rewired the 4th pneumatic switch so that I can control either lockup in 2,3,4, or "stock" lockup in 4th only, or no lockup at all in any gear.

It appears from the drawings that the primary pressure source for the 2-3 solenoid comes from a port just behind the spring in the 4-3 sequencer valve. But it must be triggered by a signal from (initially the action of the 3-4 shift valve, which then triggers the 3-4 relay (part of the same bore as the 4-3 sequencer valve) to throw pressure to the back side of the 2-4 solenoid to engage 4th gear...

Also, I noticed that my shifter had to be nudged a little bit for the neutral safety switch to engage to start, so I thought "OH, the shift linkage is a little bit off and when I'm in "D", maybe it's thinking I'm in "2", or third gear. So I crawled under it for the thousandths time, and it was off by about 3/16", so I moved/adjusted the linkage so that when in "D", it was firmly in the detent position for "D". Made no difference... I also thought that because after driving home on a 200 mile trip, after stopping and then taking off again, 4th gear quit engaging... so I shifted to "N", then pulled the shifter back very carefully and slowly into "D", and it shifted into 4th the rest of the way home.. Is it possible that the Manual Valve is leaking??.. But this last week, I tried that again, and it didn't make it work.. so I don't know if it was just another "coincidence" or not...

Here is something strange.. one evening last week, I happened to pull up next to a (probably one of those knock-off kit cars) Shelby Cobra's.. well, I couldn't resist.. so at the next red light, we had a little race.. and I waxed his asssss !! And after that kinda HARD race, that's when it then refused to go into 4th again... may just be a coincidence,... but.... too weird ....

And finally, it seems that when I make a change, it works fine for a while, then returns to the problem again..

I'm starting to think that it's not a problem with viscosity at all, but something getting stuck with "expansion" of some damned valve somewhere...perhaps getting stuck ... or a leak.. hell, I don't know....

Here are the three drawings down below the links....that I'm referring to...

So before I tear into it again, I'd kinda need to know what to look for...

Thanks, guys..

Here are links to my website for more background on the transmission..

Chapter 1- back a few years ago...
The 700R4 Transmission, Chapter 1 - 49FordCoupe

Chapter 2, after mechanical failure (where you helped me with parts and tips)...BE SURE TO GO TO PAGE 2 OF THIS GALLERY FOR THE LATEST
The 700R4 Transmission, Chapter 2 - 49FordCoupe

And finally, my "home page" of my website to see the entire catalog of the building of the car..(mostly non-related to my current problems...
PaulsPics

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#10 ·
I figure you already did this but I'm going to throw it out there because of what you said about the shift valve. I think you have some crud in the valve body and here and there a speck works loose and causes you some trouble. I would pull the VB and give it one heck of a soak and cleaning along with making sure that every valve in it slides freely. I would also run a fine file over the case just to make sure you don't have a edge that's causing a leak in the VB to case sealing.
 
#12 ·
Sorry I guess I assumed you would definitely concentrate on the 3-4 up-shift valve once the VB was out for cleaning.

A74741-1

They have a replacement 3-4 valve but it's not cheap - $117 and shipping. This appears to be the Trans-Go part that allows full throttle 3/4 shift. There is a note on the Trans-Go site that a minimum of 175 psi is required. Not sure if you have put a gauge on the trans and checked to see what pressures you are getting right now - it would be a good check before you pull it apart.

I am not sure if the valve is available from GM Parts or not.
 
#13 ·
Thanks again, Chasracer.. after going back and looking at my own documentation on my website, chapter one, I just noticed that the transgo 2-3 kit that I put in indicated that the 3-4 shift valve is to be left as it is. I'm pretty sure I never even removed it from the valve body when I rebuilt the transmission the first time nor the second time. I don't remember which direction is toward the rear of the car on the diagram of above. As I recall you can pull the valves that face toward the rear of the car without taking the valve body off the transmission. But not any that might face the front of the transmission. But of course if there's junk in it I guess I'll be pulling the valve body no matter what.

By the way nobody has answered with regard to what's going on with Dana at probuilt transmissions. Does anybody know him and whether he is alright or not?
 
#17 · (Edited)
Actually, neither trans has a 2-4 "solenoid".
The 4L60E diagram show the 1-2, 2-3, and 3-2 solenoids.
But since you said you bought a Sonnax, I'm assuming you are talking about the 2-4 "servo".

You need diagrams specifically for the 700R4.

EDIT: My advice would be to take your original cooler out of the system, since you put a new one in, but haven't eliminated the old one as a possible flow issue.
I'm not saying it would cause your issue, but you may as well eliminate it during troubleshooting.
Also, put a temp gauge on your trans.
My 4L60E controller has a temp gauge, and it's been invaluable.
I also have a quick-response (mechanical) pressure gauge in my center console.
I also put a magnetic filter on the return line, so that no particles from the cooling system can get to the trans.
END EDIT

One thing I can tell you is that, generally speaking, shifting doesn't just involve providing pressure to a certain hyd. circuit, it also involves pressure differential.
So a leak in one gear's hyd. circuit could keep it from shifting into another gear, because the pressure differential isn't right.
That's about all the detail I'm qualified to go into, but it's food for thought.

Your "270psi at 1500rpm" isn't necessarily a good thing... more isn't better, proper pressure at the proper throttle setting is a good thing.
At 1500 rpm I wouldn't expect more than about 100psi (as a guess), since your throttle is barely open.
That full 270 shouldn't be there until you're at a high throttle setting, regardless of RPM.
Are you the guy with the TCI valve body that's full pressure all the time?

Look at the Sonnax site's articles, and see if you find anything there...
 
#18 ·
Thanks, Surf...well ok, I'm old, and I like my wine...servo and solenoid both start with an "S"...haha..

As I understand the fluid going to the cooler only serves the bushings and perhaps somewhere else but does not serve any of the valve body shifting pressures.

Stock valve body with Transgo shift kit

You may have missed this
 
#22 ·
Thanks. I'm either on, or have been on, maybe 2 dozen forums and have knowingly tried editing the title on some boards to no avail. So I've since ASSumed "edit" only applied to the body. Possibly these Xenforo-based boards are wired differently... Anyway, doesn't the edit button disappear after 15 minutes?

Russ