I think this is the latest phase of incompetence and laziness.

Wetting with slow reducers after 20 minutes, may work to level some clears
going to have a hard time leveling the better clears if it would help at all.

Long term effect on the clear, if done on last coat no problem I can see.

Why not spend 1 minute to fine tune gun adjustment and spray it like you want it to look and be done with it and save the extra work and cost of doing
a urethane reducer coat?

What would concern me is another cause of dryness is to fast of a reducer or activator for the conditions, now that can cause longterm delamination.

Another concern, if there spraying their clear like this, then I would conclude
they are having major problems with metallic bases and the NUMBER one or two cause today of clear peeling is drop coating of metallics or mist coating to get the metallic even instead of adjusting you gun properly.

Gun adjustment.
Three months ago a jobber took me into the biggest shop in Starksville MS.
The owner wanted me to go over the paint gun adjusting after closing with all the painters (3). Last week the owner called and thanked me because since I did the gun adjusting deal his clear usage has been cut in half and he swears his base usage is down 75% and he says he has never turned out this much paint work so constantly.

Gun adjust is a simple answer for speed, cheapness and best paint work.

 

You got my attention. :thumbup:
How about a "lesson" oh Great One.
After my fiasco this weekend with a Silver metallic and running into Today with lifting on the tape pull's with the Kandy. I'm about to have a BIG fire in the back yard or a sale on "slightly" used paint equip.

 

Three months ago a jobber took me into the biggest shop in Starksville MS.
The owner wanted me to go over the paint gun adjusting after closing with all the painters (3). Last week the owner called and thanked me because since I did the gun adjusting deal his clear usage has been cut in half and he swears his base usage is down 75% and he says he has never turned out this much paint work so constantly.

Gun adjust is a simple answer for speed, cheapness and best paint work.

Barry, I remember a few similar events when I was a rep. It is mind blowing to see how many guys don't know how to set up the gun. Now, I don't mind telling you, I didn't have a clue myself until S-W sent me to school when I got the job

I had one shop owner grab me by the arm the next time I pulled in his lot. I thought I had done something wrong. He took me from job to job telling me "Look at this, look at this" He was so excited how the painter had produced all these jobs that looked so good since I spent the day with him.

I reminded the guy about his favorite saying "Damn paint reps always trying to sell you something".


Eric, I had the same concern as you can see by my response. I can just see some newbe with a little orange peel having his paint job gernade because he pulled this stunt. Now, the real crack up is, how many home hobbiest are going to get an out of gun-done job that needs no buffing anyway? They are GOING to buff it, so you have a little orange peel. After doing this reducer coat, even it it helps the orange peel a little, they are STILL going to have to buff because of other defects, so what is gained?
Brian

 

You got my attention. :thumbup:
How about a "lesson" oh Great One.
After my fiasco this weekend with a Silver metallic and running into Today with lifting on the tape pull's with the Kandy. I'm about to have a BIG fire in the back yard or a sale on "slightly" used paint equip.

Here you go, I think Brian has one posted also.
Barry

http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Adjusting Your Paint Gun.htm

 

Another concern, if there spraying their clear like this, then I would conclude
they are having major problems with metallic bases and the NUMBER one or two cause today of clear peeling is drop coating of metallics or mist coating to get the metallic even instead of adjusting you gun properly.
QUOTE]


Barry, I've never had any problems doing a drop coat, sure if it is not done properly it will open the door to problems- but to say it is totally an uneeded operation is wrong IMO- Obviously you haven't done much spraying with the tougher metalics in PPG's Global line- an absolute nightmare for anyone reguardless of gun adjustment unless they know the proper proceedure for applying a drop coat.

On the clear rewetting- I've seen it done numerous times without any problems, Worked in a Dupont shop years ago where the painter there did this on a routine basis without any comebacks. Proper gun adjustment and temperature with proper product selection is always a better way to go for sure though.

 

Oh!, I know all about the ppg metallics, not sure what they did but some of the silvers and golds are miserable.
I shot a gold yesterday in PPG trying to help a shop out as he had already
gone through a gallon on this Z28.
I did it with gun adjustment and my parting comment was find a real base paint line.

Yes some you will need to back off, where the problem comes in is when people hold the gun 3 feet back and start fogging.
This is when down the road they get a Stone chip and next thing you know you have a 4" piece of clear coming off and on the back side of the clear?
Fine metallic.
Toss up if this or trapped solvents are the biggest reason for clear delamination.

 

Thanks Barry.
I've been tempted to try this myself but not having been painting for as long as most of you guy's,I figure the outcome will be MORE work than a buff job.

find a real base paint line.

Mike :spank: Nason metallic base

 

With a drop coat you need to make sure the timing is right, the last coat of medium wet applied base must be fresh enough to accept the drop coat for good adhesion, if the surface is completely flashed off the drop coat will just set on the surface causing the pebbly look and adhesion will be bad. If done right though the surface will flash off smooth with no adhesion problems. BEE4Me, if you're having a problem with the candy peeling up this may have been the problem or maybe a compatability problem if you're mixing systems? Dupont still recomends a coat of 222S if the basecoat is past it's window for clear application- this may be another option to freshen the base prior to candy application. Lots of different opinions on this stuff. Bob

 

Bee has really got my attention on this one since I had decided to use Nason in a dark gray metallic on my mustang instead of black I am concerned that I may be making a mistake, is the Nason harder to spray without blotching? I am using a Devilbiss gravity feed HVLP gun and I am now finding that some think a gravity feed might contribute to blotching also and this along with the fact that my only experience spraying metallics turned out, let's just say not so good, has me really concerned. I have read every thing I can find here on spraying metallics but it seems a little confusing. I am going to give it a try anyway so I would like to know if I would be better off with a suction type gun? Another brand of paint? The proper way to apply a drop coat if needed and any other tricks that might help.

 

Stick with the gravity feed gun, somebody is giving bad advice.

Use proper grade reducer for the temp you are spraying, adjust the gun and than play with air and you should be OK. 1.3 or 1.4 tip should be used.

What can really help the Nason is if you add 5% of a urethane clear hardener (any brand) to the paint and than reduce. The hardener will act as a stabilizer for the metallics. Don't expect your jobber store to know this or understand the hardener idea.

 

Now, the real crack up is, how many home hobbiest are going to get an out of gun-done job that needs no buffing anyway? They are GOING to buff it, so you have a little orange peel. After doing this reducer coat, even it it helps the orange peel a little, they are STILL going to have to buff because of other defects, so what is gained?
Brian

Brian, how many paint jobs have you seen come out of the gun FLAWLESS? Ive never seen one! We have two painters that work at the same shop as I and between them have around 50 yrs experience. Both use top of line Sata's and spray in a 75,000+ dollar boothes, Ive yet to see one come out that was peel free.
Now how is someone who probably has never painted before spraying with a average gun in a make shift booth gonna produce a flawless job?

Ive seen this link posted in about three sites that I visit and just wonder how many people read and thought thats the miracle cure for orange peel, just like POR is to rust. Its not a proper fix its a cover up IMO

Barry, I heard that PPG has changed a few of their metallics in the Global line and painters are alittle hot under the collar cause nothing matches. I never really got into the global stuff thought it sucked, I was a DBC fan, and that hardner in the base works like a charm!!!

 

I have to tell you Eric, I have seen many out of the gun done jobs. Where I work, about one in twenty or thirty jobs. But at other shops over the years, I have seen shops that do about twenty or thirty to one that needs buffing. I am talking the most glass smooth (to smooth to match most factory jobs) dirt free finishes.

One was back thirty years ago shooting Imron bc/cc. He had a three step filter system that used filters used at Gerber baby food

The last one I was involved with was in a little town up on the coast of California that the owner was the most anal, psychotic clean freak I have ever seen in a shop. He had about twenty five guns, one for each color group! NEVER did a "blue metallic" gun have red in it! He had two guns for those reds, a "Metallic" and a "Solid". And if that wasn't enough, how about the guns were stored with tape over the air inlet so nothing could go in there. There was a STRICT regiment when it came to filtering and stiring the paint. I can't even remember most of the things they did, it was wild.

NEVER, EVER was anything but painting done in the booth, EVER. ONLY mask and shoot. NEVER was there a piece of sand paper of any kind. The prepers were in CLEAN shoot suits to mask the car.

The owner even has his own mixing room and bank of toners just for him to use!

I am telling you, one in thirty or more needed any spot buffing, they were as close to flawless as you will ever see.

Brian

 

Barry, how about a little test on this one? Next time you are spraying something that you can experiment with do this "solvent coat" and check the DOI on it.

I have a crisp new dollar bill for anyone who wants to bet me that this "solvent coat" will produce better DOI.

Brian

 

I've never seen a paint job that couldn't be improved with some amount of colorsanding and buffing, seen some that were darn near close to perfect but never perfect. The solvent coat proceedure definately isn't the way to go if you're looking for perfection out of the gun, it's just a way to save the day when things are going wrong IMO. Back when I was working in the Dupont shop the clear formula was being screwed with by Dupont and the clear wouldn't spray the same from batch to batch-- when things weren't going right and the painter had major texture problems he would wet down the surface of the clear right after the last coat with solvent and allow it to flow. It worked and minimized the amount of sanding needed on the horizontal surfaces but still needed to be buffed as gloss was reduced. If the solvent coat was the way to go for perfection then everyone would be doing it for sure. Ever add blending solvent to the clear on the last coat?-this was also a common proceedure for awhile. Some of the shops around here are still using the blender trick-especially in the Hyper clears like Dupont HC7600S. Bob

 

Never seen a perfect job? You never done seen me with a rattle can !!! I kin paint yer fridge and make er look jes fine !

Sorry- it was time someone interjected some humor!

I'm getting bummed out before I can even pick up the gun !! Sounds like my chances of doing a decent job on my own, are going down the tubes...


Back to the serious posts...

 

Never seen a perfect job? You never done seen me with a rattle can !!! I kin paint yer fridge and make er look jes fine !

Sorry- it was time someone interjected some humor!

I'm getting bummed out before I can even pick up the gun !! Sounds like my chances of doing a decent job on my own, are going down the tubes...


Back to the serious posts...

Don't get bummed out.
People have been painting cars themselves for many years, if you have enough interest to pay attention to the details you'll do a good job I'm sure.

 

Barry, how about a little test on this one? Next time you are spraying something that you can experiment with do this "solvent coat" and check the DOI on it.

I have a crisp new dollar bill for anyone who wants to bet me that this "solvent coat" will produce better DOI.

Brian

***********************************************
Can't be done!

Problem is on the same clear a two minute set time will produce two different results. A 15% change in humidity or a 10% change in temperature will change the results with the same clear.

Every brand of clear will in itself perform differently under these "flow" conditions. It will work better on the Nason than it will on 2022 or glamor clear or SPI.

Also HC clear was mentioned the resin for that clear "nuplex" will act different and a very high risk of splitting down the road.

I'm sorry but this subject to me is like collecting parts for your engine
because you know its going to blow up because you don't want to change the oil.

Adjust the gun and we won't need this conversation.

 

***********************************************

I'm sorry but this subject to me is like collecting parts for your engine
because you know its going to blow up because you don't want to change the oil.

Brian

 

I've never seen a paint job that couldn't be improved with some amount of colorsanding and buffing, seen some that were darn near close to perfect but never perfect. . Bob

Bob, don't get me wrong, we are not talking "show car" flawless, perfect,not by a LONG, LONG shot. I am talking "collision" repair, restored to "preaccident" condition "perfect".

Brian

 

Bob, don't get me wrong, we are not talking "show car" flawless, perfect,not by a LONG, LONG shot. I am talking "collision" repair, restored to "preaccident" condition "perfect".

Brian

Brian, this what I was trying to get across. Yes by all means a "collision repair" perfect paint is very possible but a show car finish??

The link made it sound like dumping on solvent was the answer to a instant show car finish. Throw away the 2000 grit and buffer, just hose on the solvent

 

Bob, don't get me wrong, we are not talking "show car" flawless, perfect,not by a LONG, LONG shot. I am talking "collision" repair, restored to "preaccident" condition "perfect".

Brian

Yeah, I thought we were talking show perfect, I've seen the solvent coat in done many times so I just thought I'd chime in.
Matching oem quality usually isn't a problem, a perfect completely flawless job is a different story-but I have see a few that were close. I agree with everyone here- get the gun dialed in and select the right materials for the job and you won't have to come up with solutions for problems that could have been avoided. The Iwata gun I've been using sure has been helping me get some good results lately. :thumbup:

 

Someone mentioned Kosmoski using the straight reducer on HOK Clear,BUT,
This is on blend repairs AND he STILL color sands and buff's afterward.
His final clear coat on straight paint job's consists of UFC 35 clear,
at a 2:1-1/2,heavy on the reducer,3 coats total,1 bond,2 super wet.

 

Back to the Gun Adjust thing

I have a real hard time adjusting the gun for clear coats. I do a spray pattern on a piece of paper but its CLEAR and virtually impossible to see what the little atomized bits of clear are looking like at the outside of the pattern. It is even tough for me to see how much coverage I am geting at the outside of the fan compared to the middle. How do you adjust what you can't see is there a trick??? And what about this now you've got the gun pretty close to being adjusted just mess with it from here to get it perfect?? Mess with what? What Am I looking for??

Ric

 

Good topic :thumbup:

I'v allways used a last coat of reducer on spot repairs only......to melt in the clear...

but I did try it once on a complete refinish job trying to get less orange peel..

It was a desaster

It did help with the orange peel, but there were spots that seem to have "clouded" kind of milky white tint to it ain:

Never tried that again

by the way, I was using nason

 

Good topic :thumbup:

I'v allways used a last coat of reducer on spot repairs only......to melt in the clear...

but I did try it once on a complete refinish job trying to get less orange peel..

It was a desaster

It did help with the orange peel, but there were spots that seem to have "clouded" kind of milky white tint to it ain:

Never tried that again

by the way, I was using nason

THAT is exactly my point! After months of prep work, hundreds and hundreds of dollars in material.... If it were the thing to do the manufacturers would be telling you to do it. Not only would their clear look better, they would sell more solvent (their highest gross profit product in most cases). It would be a win-win for them, IF it worked!


Ric, try using a different color paper. White masking paper works very well.
Brian